"Full" internet, really?

[Sweeperdk]

Flash... So what

So I'm a website designer/webmaster who works with flash issues every single day.

No, iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch do not display flash. Now... Who is to blame for these issues?

In my book, any major site that utilizes flash needs to look into this. There is a significant amount of potential users out there, who now surf the web from an iPad (not to mention the smaller, more portable devices).

Personally, I would consider creating flash content in HTML5 instead/also, to cater for the quite significant amount of users using these devices. Yes, it's an extra burden, but it IS a valid one.

No, I do not believe that flash will disappear from the net within the foreseeable future. But, I do believe that we will see duplicate content in flash & HTML5, or similar.

And all this simply to cater for more mobile devices. Because lets be fair... yes, there are mobile devices that render flash. However, there is not a single one that does so flawlessly. Flash is simply too cumbersome for a mobile device at this point in time.

Now... about the whole internet experience... I find it just right. No, I do not see it as a "full internet experience", nor would I expect to. But I DO see it as a more-than-adequate experience. I would guesstimate that for my usage, an iPad covers about 99% of all surfing.

Is this perfect? No. Is this "good enough"? Yes... At this point in time. Could it be a better experience? Yup, absolutely, but so could surfing the net on a regular computer.

I personally cannot get my bloodpressure to rise due to anyone elses subjective experience and belief... The iPad works for me, for MY needs... And that, dear people, is what I believe is important

 

[cube]

The solution is a flip MBA with 4:3 touchscreen.

 

[Carniphage]

these 3 sites are the reason I haven't bought an ipad:

ITV player
4oD
Demand Five

you americans won't know these sites as they are only available in the UK, but I guarantee that every UK person on these forums will agree that it is a crying shame that these sites cannot be viewed on the iPad because they all use flash.

It doesn't matter which way you cut it some sites only use flash (for major features) and thoes sites cannot be viewed fully on the ipad, this is not a problem on a phone but on a device designed for the living room as a perfect device to 'check out extra coverage on the tv channels website' it fails

These are commercial sites. They benefit from reaching a wide audience.
If they can't be bothered to use web standards, they will lose audience.

But they *can* be bothered. All of these sites will be offering HTML5 streaming in future because they are not stupid. They want to reach the widest possible mobile audience.

Within a year, I suspect it will be very hard to find a single current site that will not be accessible from the iPad.

C.

 

[sapporobaby]

I do not understand why people who have an axe to grind about the iPad or iPhone don't go to the Apple site and post there. What does anyone who decides to complain expect anyone here to do? MR is truly the dumping ground for those who just have to find somewhere to complain.

 

[err404]

I know it's a miner point, but the iPad does support the "Full Internet" as detailed by the W3 Consortium. What you are asking for could be considered "Internet Plus"; Full Internet + 3rd Party proprietary extensions.

 

[BobHail]

But you're wrong. You seem to be ignoring virtually every reply that has said that Youtube and Facebook work just FINE on the Ipad.

No, you are wrong. I´ve tried many sites myself like mentioned. The experience is far from full. Far from "just fine". The sole and main purpose of sites like YouTube, Facebook, MySpace and so on... is taken away, destroyed, the meat and potatos of those sites are gone with the mobile version of the internet, so they are pretty much unusable (to me).

I can´t believe how some people can enjoy those sites at all with iOS Safari. To me they are pretty much unusable. (But like I´ve said for iPhone it´s ok for casual mobile to use the dedicated apps, but even those apps aren´t made for every site). For iPad which isn´t even very mobile in my opinion (compared to iPhone) the iOS Safari is a disgrace (especially when Apple is marketing it as the "best experience").

 

[sapporobaby]

No, you are wrong. I´ve tried many sites myself like mentioned. The experience is far from full. Far from "just fine". The sole and main purpose of sites like YouTube, Facebook, MySpace and so on... is taken away, destroyed, the meat and potatos of those sites are gone with the mobile version of the internet, so they are pretty much unusable (to me).

I can´t believe how some people can enjoy those sites at all with iOS Safari. To me they are pretty much unusable. (But like I´ve said for iPhone it´s ok for casual mobile to use the dedicated apps, but even those apps aren´t made for every site). For iPad which isn´t even very mobile in my opinion (compared to iPhone) the iOS Safari is a disgrace (especially when Apple is marketing it as the "best experience").

What is the end game here? Do you just want to complain and drag this out and if so to what end? If you don't like the iPad, then either don't buy one, sell it if you have it, if you don't have one then don't buy one, but dear God get over it and stop with the incessant whining about it. As many have posted, the iPad is not for everyone. This is fair. It is not for you and that too is okay. Can we just get over this?

 

[BobHail]

The numbers don't lie because the ipad is an awesome device, BUT the truth of the matter is that the internet experience *can* be improved, I don't know why people are having such a hard time with this. It's not a personal attack on you, it's just the simple facts. Maybe the ipads internet experience works for most users, and from a business standpoint then Apple certainly is smart in not wasting money in improving it, but it still *can* be improved.

As for Flash, as I've mentioned before it works pretty damn perfectly on my Captivate with Froyo, at least videos do. I think the whole "Flash will ruin my phone" crap is just overblown hype.

I also kind of find it amusing that you feel the OP shouldn't complain because he can't use sites like FB and Myspace because you think they are outdated, millions of users use these, I don't think they are outdated at all and it's valid if you can't use them the same as you can on a full PC/laptop simply because of software shortcomings. Same for youtube, you know there is a TON of embedded youtube in Flash which is unviewable on the ipad, there is no alternative and you miss out on that content.

It's all good and I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so I hope no one gets their panties in a bunch (as we see so often on here), and I think the ipad's internet experience is mostly all there. But as I mentioned before I'd love Apple to take that extra couple of steps and really solidify their internet experience. I just don't get why so many of you argue that it's "perfect" when it's not like a battle you versus them, it's just real world users expressing some issues they would like Apple to resolve.

these 3 sites are the reason I haven't bought an ipad:

ITV player
4oD
Demand Five

you americans won't know these sites as they are only available in the UK, but I guarantee that every UK person on these forums will agree that it is a crying shame that these sites cannot be viewed on the iPad because they all use flash.

It doesn't matter which way you cut it some sites only use flash (for major features) and thoes sites cannot be viewed fully on the ipad, this is not a problem on a phone but on a device designed for the living room as a perfect device to 'check out extra coverage on the tv channels website' it fails

Finally some people who have the ability for critical thinking.

The iPad works for me, for MY needs... And that, dear people, is what I believe is important

That´s ok of course, but obviously you or other iPad owners don´t enjoy/use sites like mentioned in this thread, because you simply can´t.

I do not understand why people who have an axe to grind about the iPad or iPhone don't go to the Apple site and post there. What does anyone who decides to complain expect anyone here to do? MR is truly the dumping ground for those who just have to find somewhere to complain.

Without criticism (in your world "complaining") there would never be any improvements.

 

[sapporobaby]

Without criticism (in your world "complaining") there would never be any improvements.

Fair enough. How about complaining over on: www.apple.com/support. They might actually be able to do something. Here you are just a voice in the wind complaining about a product that has had so much exposure since its launch that anyone who purchases it now and complains about its shortcomings has some serious issues that need addressing.

 

[err404]

No, you are wrong. I´ve tried many sites myself like mentioned. The experience is far from full. Far from "just fine"...

The 'Full' experience of a given site is different from the 'Full Internet'. The requirement for proprietary plug-ins does effect the experience provided by the site. The proper rendering of a site is the responsibility of the site owner once they step away from the published standards.

If you aren't happy with the rendering of Youtube and Facebook, complain to them. It not the fault of a standards compliment browser that these sites don't render correctly.

 

[sapporobaby]

The 'Full' experience of a given site is different from the 'Full Internet'. The requirement for proprietary plug-ins does effect the experience provided by the site but correct rendering of a site is the responsibility of the site owner once they step away from the published standards.

If you aren't happy with the rendering of Youtube and Facebook, complain to them. It not the fault of a standards compliment browser that they don't render correctly.

Your attempts at making cogent arguments will go unheeded. Facts are irrelevant when nothing more than a good rant is on the table.

 

[BobHail]

What is the end game here? Do you just want to complain and drag this out and if so to what end? If you don't like the iPad, then either don't buy one, sell it if you have it, if you don't have one then don't buy one, but dear God get over it and stop with the incessant whining about it. As many have posted, the iPad is not for everyone. This is fair. It is not for you and that too is okay. Can we just get over this?

Why are you complaining about "complaining"? Why are you reading and commenting in this thread?

If you don´t have any argument about the topic, why come here and complain about my criticism of the iPad´s web experience? Is it because you know it´s true and you don´t have any argument? You don´t want me to remind you the bad things about the iPad? Out of site, out of mind, right?

 

[sapporobaby]

Why are you complaining about "complaining"? Why are you reading and commenting in this thread?

If you don´t have any argument about the topic, why come here and complain about my criticism of the iPad´s web experience? Is it because you know it´s true and you don´t have any argument? You don´t want me to remind you the bad things about the iPad? Out of site, out of mind, right?

Usually I have a solution when I point out a problem. To date, you have done nothing but complain on a site that can't do jack about your issue. Go over to Apple and complain to them. Others have pointed out very salient arguments regarding the Internet experience but you do not want to understand this. You are now entering into troll territory because you are not interested in facts. You just want to rant. That too is your prerogative but we do not have to simply accept it. This is not your forum as it is not mine.

 

[Piggie]

The whole Flash thing may resolve itself anyway.

If, and it's a bit "IF" all the other tablets that come out over the next few years support Flash, The Android ones, the Blackberry ones, and perhaps even the Microsoft ones, Then Apple may have to back track, work with Adobe and support Flash.

They have backtracked many times, and can use the same excuse that's always been used, in that, at the time it was just not ready, but now it is ready and usable they are happy and proud to support it.

Who knows.

If Flash acceleration gets build into everything else apart from Apple Products we may find things will have to change.

 

[MrWillie]

these 3 sites are the reason I haven't bought an ipad:

ITV player
4oD
Demand Five

you americans won't know these sites as they are only available in the UK, but I guarantee that every UK person on these forums will agree that it is a crying shame that these sites cannot be viewed on the iPad because they all use flash.

It doesn't matter which way you cut it some sites only use flash (for major features) and thoes sites cannot be viewed fully on the ipad, this is not a problem on a phone but on a device designed for the living room as a perfect device to 'check out extra coverage on the tv channels website' it fails

Then quit going to them. Let them know you will not be visiting their sites anymore because they use flash. Whether or not you purchase an iPad or not is irrelevant. Continued use of those sites encourage the use of third party plugins.

It sounds like you blame Apple for a websites use of a third party plugin.

Edit: A recent Google search says that you will soon be able to say "There's an app for that".

 

[Piggie]

Then quit going to them. Let them know you will not be visiting their sites anymore because they use flash. Whether or not you purchase an iPad or not is irrelevant. Continued use of those sites encourage the use of third party plugins.

It sounds like you blame Apple for a websites use of a third party plugin.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your view on this.

The iPad comes 1st and web sites use 3rd party code that the established iPad cannot play, then I blame the website. (I think we all would as that's common sense)

The web site comes 1st and then a device is made that cannot view the well established web site. Well, common sense must say the fault now is the display device.

Otherwise it's like making a car that does not like some roads which people use every day and blaming the roads, and not the new car for it's inability to drive along them.

 

[DiamondMac]

I get the full experience that I need to be honest

I love my iPad....I just find the monthly cap to be a joke

 

[err404]

The web site comes 1st and then a device is made that cannot view the well established web site. Well, common sense must say the fault now is the display device.

Don't expect the WebKit team to test every site and conform to their bad practices. The iPad was designed to conform to the W3C standards. Web sites should be expected to do the same.

A web site can use any plug in they want, but it should render correctly without it. If is doesn't, then it barely qualifies as a website. It is just hoping to leverage the plug in architecture of the browser to host a proprietary application wrapped in your browsers window.

It took years to dig out the non-standards mess that IE6 left behind, and it will take years to dig out of the Flash mess. Let's start now.

 

[Piggie]

Don't expect the WebKit team to test every site and conform to their bad practices. The iPad was designed to conform to the W3C standards. Web sites should be expected to do the same.

A web site can use any plug in they want, but it should render correctly without it. If is doesn't, then it barely qualifies as a website. It is just hoping to leverage the plug in architecture of the browser to host a proprietary application wrapped in your browsers window.

It took years to dig out the non-standards mess that IE6 left behind, and it will take years to dig out of the Flash mess. Let's start now.

Well what we need for starters is some new language/compiler that can take flash code and recompile it into some new format that works better.

I've yet to be convinced there is such a thing out yet. (and no I'm not talking about video playback)

And the problem is (even with video), I have played back the same 1080p video clip on the new YouTube and the old Flash YouTube and the flash version of the video took 10% less CPU power to play back.

 

[err404]

Well what we need for starters is some new language/compiler that can take flash code and recompile it into some new format that works better.

I've yet to be convinced there is such a thing out yet. (and no I'm not talking about video playback)

And the problem is (even with video), I have played back the same 1080p video clip on the new YouTube and the old Flash YouTube and the flash version of the video took 10% less CPU power to play back.

As I said, it's fine to use Flash, but if you require it, it's your fault if people can't view it. It's a third party extension and therefore not an intrinsic part of a compliant browser.

 

[Carniphage]

Why are you complaining about "complaining"? Why are you reading and commenting in this thread?

There is a difference between complaining and whining. Complaint is positive and has an objective. Whining has no objective. It's just negativity expressed.

The iPad is a product in its own right. It has capabilities and one of them is web-compliant browsing. One of the many things it lacks is the ability to install proprietary plug-ins. We all knew this. It always will. No amount of whining will magically cause Flash on the iPod to appear. Only commercial pressure on Apple will do that.

If this shortcoming is not something you can deal with, then please, make your complaint effective by not buying the product. Help make this technology a failure. Buy a netbook instead!

But as it happens a remarkably large number of people *are* buying it. And they are using it. And they are enjoying it. I got mine. I like it a lot. If I dropped it tomorrow, I'd buy another one the same day to replace it. So essential has it become to me.

I guess Apple will weigh up the balance of customers like me, with ones like you and decide how to proceed. I think their current commercial success hints at the way things will work out.

Meanwhile, websites that can't currently be bothered to adopt web standards will also decide whether they'd like my custom or prefer to not have it. Once again, I suggest that the very significant amount of mobile readership coming on the iPad hints that they will quickly put their houses in order, in a very short time. Or perhaps they will not.

Stuff changes. It's all good.

C.

 

[Piggie]

There is a difference between complaining and whining. Complaint is positive and has an objective. Whining has no objective. It's just negativity expressed.

The iPad is a product in its own right. It has capabilities and one of them is web-compliant browsing. One of the many things it lacks is the ability to install proprietary plug-ins. We all knew this. It always will. No amount of whining will magically cause Flash on the iPod to appear. Only commercial pressure on Apple will do that.

If this shortcoming is not something you can deal with, then please, make your complaint effective by not buying the product. Help make this technology a failure. Buy a netbook instead!

But as it happens a remarkably large number of people *are* buying it. And they are using it. And they are enjoying it. I got mine. I like it a lot. If I dropped it tomorrow, I'd buy another one the same day to replace it. So essential has it become to me.

I guess Apple will weigh up the balance of customers like me, with ones like you and decide how to proceed. I their current commercial success hints at the way things will work out.

Meanwhile, websites that can't currently be bothered to adopt web standards will also decide whether they'd like my custom or prefer to not have it. Once again, I suggest that the very significant amount of mobile readership coming on the iPad hints that they will quickly put their houses in order, in a very short time. Or perhaps they will not.

Stuff changes. It's all good.

C.

I agree pretty much with what you say.
We will see how things change in the future.
For the moment I do feel iPhone/iPad users (of whom I am one) do perhaps feel there little world is really bigger than it is.
We need to accept that iPhones, Ipads and even iMac's could disappear in a puff of smoke tomorrow and hardly a eyebrow would be raised in the grand scheme of things.
They are to be honest, insignificant numbers, even though they seem a lot from where we are standing, in the bigger picture they are not.

Who know what the next 10 years will bring.

Myself (and I'm not being a troll here) I think it's Sad that is SEEMS like Apple have given up on the computer market and are going full steam to where they see they can make the most money. I can't blame them, there are a business and they are going to do what's right for their company to maximise it's profits over what some customers may want.

They will try and persuade and manipulate customer opinion that the Apple way if the cool way and at the moment they are riding high of this wave. How long the way can last, well no-one knows, so I can't blame them for making the most of it.

Steve won't be around forever, and that will have a dramatic change on the company in itself.

Apple don't make the product I really want, and now, I don't think they ever will make the product I want as they have stopped trying to, which for me is a shame.

I'd like a Apple Mini tower (a nice aluminium and glass case of course) with good design, that kicks a PC's arse.
I don't mind paying a bit of a premium, but not a stupid premium.
I'd love to see reviews in Magazines of a Mac and a PC side by side benchmarking Crysis or some lastest Tessalation demo with the Mac beating the PC's scores and looking ultra cool, and running OSX

I'm sure there are thousands/millions who would love to see this also. But it's just not (and I could say never) going to happen. Not because it can't be done, but Apple just have no interest in doing it.

Yes, they will make some better cool lightweight gadgets and perhaps bring iOS towards OSX and dumb down the whole Apple line, and the only real computers lets will be the power macs.

One could say it's the start of a new era, but also it's sad that it seems that it's an end of an era also.

Hey ho......................

 

[dejo]

The sole and main purpose of sites like YouTube, Facebook, MySpace and so on... is taken away, destroyed, the meat and potatos of those sites are gone with the mobile version of the internet, so they are pretty much unusable (to me).

Many sites provide links to the non-mobile version; use 'em.

 

[ditzy]

Bob as with every thread that you have started on the iPad section of the forum, I get it, you don't like the iPad. That's cool. Really I mean that, that's cool. I love the iPad, it does every thing I want/need it to do. Yes it has limitations, as does every sort of tech. Although as with every piece of tech you have to decide whether it does what you need it to do. It doesn't for you, again that's cool, it does what I need it to, that's cool too.
If you stuck to telling everyone here why the iPad doesn't work for you, I suspect people wouldn't act so hostile towards you. However you insist on telling everyone why it shouldn't work for anyone, not taking into account that other people have different needs to you. I have no desire to convert you to my way of thinking on the iPad. Although I do hope that one day you might realise that other people understand their own needs as well as you understand yours.

 

[I WAS the one]

I don't have an iPhone because of the lack of Java and the lockdown.

jailbreakme.com