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Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
- Thread starter Lastgreen
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Thanks. I believe Apple has already confirmed that Gen 3 keyboard is strictly for 2018 model. I can see what you are trying to get at with being economical - but the 2018 top case may not be compatible with the 2017, it has some othe components which have been redesigned which could explain why they are't doing that (e.g. the battery is different).
Your replacement shouldn't be an identical keyboard, I think it has an improved alloy? Just not all that membrane stuff of Gen 3.
Everyone sues everyone now. There is a petition about everything now. Apple was once forced to give away free cases to every iPhone 4 owner.
I think in this day and age, Apple probably considered that even a small vocal minority can scream loud enough where its better to just make the problem go away with offering free fixes. Which I think was the right thing to do.
Ugh, I dunno about this Reddit...maybe a mod deleted my /r/apple post cos they just didn't like it?
I've now posted it in /r/mac, hope this doesn't get deleted: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/8zv9mk/apple_has_refused_to_refund_my_defective/
And to note, they said had I bought it directly from them with an Apple Store receipt in their system, they'd refund it right away. But going by their warranty (see details in the reddit link), I think they're being lazy and absolutely CAN and HAVE TO issue a refund for a major failure, if demanded, which if true, is grounds for serious complaint from me.
So if your mac was bought by you directly from Apple, it's no problem, go right ahead to your Apple Store and get a refund so long as you can present the dust keyboard problem to them. What my case will establish, is Apple being held accountable for any other way of having obtained a Mac (at least if you're the activated user from the beginning and so soon only within 1 or 2 years, like me).
I've now posted it in /r/mac, hope this doesn't get deleted: https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/8zv9mk/apple_has_refused_to_refund_my_defective/
And to note, they said had I bought it directly from them with an Apple Store receipt in their system, they'd refund it right away. But going by their warranty (see details in the reddit link), I think they're being lazy and absolutely CAN and HAVE TO issue a refund for a major failure, if demanded, which if true, is grounds for serious complaint from me.
So if your mac was bought by you directly from Apple, it's no problem, go right ahead to your Apple Store and get a refund so long as you can present the dust keyboard problem to them. What my case will establish, is Apple being held accountable for any other way of having obtained a Mac (at least if you're the activated user from the beginning and so soon only within 1 or 2 years, like me).
I bought it directly from Apple Store Sydney and I have the receipt too, but it was 1.5 yrs back, a 2016 15-inch. So I don't expect them to refund me even though Australian Consumer Law may entitle me for a refund. All I want is the permanent fix, which apparently is the silicone membrane.
But I have a feeling that Apple is not confident that the membrane will fix the issue anyway. Based on the result of real world use of 2018 models, they might finally fix it for either 2019 or 2020.
But I have a feeling that Apple is not confident that the membrane will fix the issue anyway. Based on the result of real world use of 2018 models, they might finally fix it for either 2019 or 2020.
My point wasn't that Steve was perfect, he and every other CEO are from it, it was that he drove innovation which is now lacking in Apple today. He also fostered a culture of 'customer first' which is slowly but surely being erased in the interest of shareholders.
When Antenna Gate occurred with the iPhone 4, Apple did something pretty noble and offered a free case for every single person who had purchased one. They acknowledged a real problem, and provided a real solution that really did eliminate the issue, so long as you were willing to utilize a case, as most do.
Tim's response is to launch a repair program for the MBP keyboard with unclear details (which gen keyboard are you really getting with a replacement?) where the only way to deal with it is to be without your laptop for potentially multiple weeks. I realize there was recently a story on MR which says that Apple won't replace 2016/2017 MBP's with the new 2018 keyboard, however there's already contradicting reports out there.
Some folks have had numerous replacements, particularly with the 2016 models. Potentially months without a laptop, which they spent $2-3 grand on, which is the primary tool for a lot of people in order to perform their job duties.
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I used one of the new keyboards at the Apple Store yesterday and I have to say it is the best. I am on a Mid 2015 MacBook Pro which I love, I have used a Mid 2017 for a few months, and am now eyeing that 2018. It is such a great feeling on that keyboard man I gotta say they really did that one right.
Respectfully, they also said the driver behind the keyboard change (adding silicone barrier) was to 'reduce noise'. While that's not a false statement, it's also far from the truth, as evidenced by their 2016 patent about blocking external debris.
I think part of the reason everyone is so worked up is that Apple is being anything but transparent about the whole thing. I get it, outstanding lawsuits and whatnot, but include me in the group of people hesitant to believe anything Apple has to say about this keyboard debacle. There's already contradicting reports with folks stating they have 2018 topcase replacements in their 2017, but I'll wait a few more weeks to draw anything conclusive from just a couple of reports.
There is no way they have 2018 top cases. No way at all. Maybe modified 2017s/16s but not the same part.
Not saying you're right or wrong, just saying I've already seen posts on this forum with people with 2017 models with what they believe to be the 2018 topcase, silicone-added keyboard, larger battery and all. In theory I'd agree with you. Only time will tell.
Only have used my 2018 MBPro 15 for about an hour but the keyboard is much more quiet than my 2017 disaster keyboard. Very happy.
Nah friend we can tell right now
Or believe that Apple made up a new computer model Alien/Predator hybrid style. Sounds like you're old enough in the game to know that aint it.
I think going by Reddit, some people thought they had the new top case due to it appearing like the battery capacity increased. Saw some Reddit thread explaining away the apparent increase in battery capacity and why it really wasn't an increase with some fancy calculations.
I don’t think I’ve seen an example of the membrane layer on repaired machines but happy to be shown.
I went through several 2016 MBP 15" and all of them had problems with the keyboard. All of them were loud and suffered from hollow centers and sticky keys especially the space bar. I even ordered the 2015 MBP 15" and while the keyboard was near silent, the screen and speakers were below par compared to the newer model so I ended up returning the 2015 model too.
I waited for the 2017's to arrive and when I got it I knew the keyboard felt different than the several 2016's I got. Most people didn't believe anything changed but I'm still a believer that Apple did something because my 2017 MBP 15" is not quite as loud and all the keys feel much more uniform across all keys, even my spacebar works great with no wobble. Maybe I just got a good one but my 2017 had been good. While I would love for the keyboard to be quieter, it doesn't warrant spending a ton of money just to get the 2018.
I have a Magic keyboard with numeric keypad I use with my mac mini desktop and I absolutely love that keyboard. It's precise and quite and has a low profile and wished Apple could have used a keyboard like that in the MBP. My Magic keyboard is probably the best typing keyboard I've ever used in my life. I love it.
I waited for the 2017's to arrive and when I got it I knew the keyboard felt different than the several 2016's I got. Most people didn't believe anything changed but I'm still a believer that Apple did something because my 2017 MBP 15" is not quite as loud and all the keys feel much more uniform across all keys, even my spacebar works great with no wobble. Maybe I just got a good one but my 2017 had been good. While I would love for the keyboard to be quieter, it doesn't warrant spending a ton of money just to get the 2018.
I have a Magic keyboard with numeric keypad I use with my mac mini desktop and I absolutely love that keyboard. It's precise and quite and has a low profile and wished Apple could have used a keyboard like that in the MBP. My Magic keyboard is probably the best typing keyboard I've ever used in my life. I love it.
Is the full magic keyboard with numeric keypad better than the compact version? I have the compact version and I feel it is just a tad too stiff which impacts fluency.
Ok folks! Just got off the phone with the ACCC, and they were excellent. Exploring all the options and details of my case, they helped me work out that Apple provides a consumer guarantee, as the manufacturer, in the form of a 'warranty against defect' in their Apple One (1) Year Limited Warranty, in which they state right at the top, "You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failure", which this keyboard defect famously is and which was confirmed by their diagnostic testing yesterday.
In this exhaustive order of action, this is what I will do until my defective 2017 MBP is remedied (with a standard refund):
- Ring up Apple on the phone first to see if they'll comply after I point out they're literally acting unlawfully by not giving me a refund.
- Make the request again via Online Support chat if I need to (and also get something in writing in some form to later give to NSW Fair Trading).
- Send a formal complaint letter to Apple Pty Ltd using the ACCC template and all information they just helped me become clear on.
- Lastly, if Apple fail to comply with the law after all that, lodge an official complaint with the relevant body which for me is NSW Fair Trading.
This is the ugliest thing I've ever experienced with the Apple brand: to legally fight for my basic right to have a major product defect remedied as they clearly promise in their own ***** 1-year warranty! This MacBook is only 4 months old!
For others like me, you may be eligible for even older MacBooks (up to two years), depending on the details of your case (and BTW the AppleCare warranty may have a promise for full refund meaning even a 2015 MacBook that is still defective could be returned). There may be more than one way to exercise your consumer rights. In my case, to make it simplest for myself (and do what SHOULD have happened at the Apple Store yesterday), I'm going after the 'Warranties against defects' 'consumer guarantee' under Australian law, from the manufacturer, which is this case is Apple Pty Ltd. I'm NOT going after the retailer.
The Apple Store manager was either an ******* to me (and ought to be fired), OR he was ignorant of Apple's universal manufacturer guarantee and has experience only dealing with customers more on the surface 'retail' level instead of Apple as the 'manufacturer', in which case I would forgive him. He was a very young manager after all, and maybe hasn't had anyone ask him for a product defect refund like this, which is what Apple is after all famous for.
I'm not even asking Apple to be 'special' or above other PC companies - I'M ASKING THEM TO HONOUR THEIR OWN 1-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY.
Heh, my caps lock key just took me five goes to turn on again. Sorry for shouting there. Maybe I should give up on Caps Lock and just zen out with this defective keyboard forever.
PS are you guys shocked at the stupidity in the reddit thread replies like I am? I didn't even bother replying to those attacking me in what must be blind weird Apple inc. worship.
In this exhaustive order of action, this is what I will do until my defective 2017 MBP is remedied (with a standard refund):
- Ring up Apple on the phone first to see if they'll comply after I point out they're literally acting unlawfully by not giving me a refund.
- Make the request again via Online Support chat if I need to (and also get something in writing in some form to later give to NSW Fair Trading).
- Send a formal complaint letter to Apple Pty Ltd using the ACCC template and all information they just helped me become clear on.
- Lastly, if Apple fail to comply with the law after all that, lodge an official complaint with the relevant body which for me is NSW Fair Trading.
This is the ugliest thing I've ever experienced with the Apple brand: to legally fight for my basic right to have a major product defect remedied as they clearly promise in their own ***** 1-year warranty! This MacBook is only 4 months old!
For others like me, you may be eligible for even older MacBooks (up to two years), depending on the details of your case (and BTW the AppleCare warranty may have a promise for full refund meaning even a 2015 MacBook that is still defective could be returned). There may be more than one way to exercise your consumer rights. In my case, to make it simplest for myself (and do what SHOULD have happened at the Apple Store yesterday), I'm going after the 'Warranties against defects' 'consumer guarantee' under Australian law, from the manufacturer, which is this case is Apple Pty Ltd. I'm NOT going after the retailer.
The Apple Store manager was either an ******* to me (and ought to be fired), OR he was ignorant of Apple's universal manufacturer guarantee and has experience only dealing with customers more on the surface 'retail' level instead of Apple as the 'manufacturer', in which case I would forgive him. He was a very young manager after all, and maybe hasn't had anyone ask him for a product defect refund like this, which is what Apple is after all famous for.
I'm not even asking Apple to be 'special' or above other PC companies - I'M ASKING THEM TO HONOUR THEIR OWN 1-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY.
Heh, my caps lock key just took me five goes to turn on again. Sorry for shouting there. Maybe I should give up on Caps Lock and just zen out with this defective keyboard forever.
PS are you guys shocked at the stupidity in the reddit thread replies like I am? I didn't even bother replying to those attacking me in what must be blind weird Apple inc. worship.
Just received my replaced keyboard and topcase on 2016 15-inch! Reporting from the Apple Store itself. I am more than impressed with the replaced keyboard. It is much quieter - very very close to the 2018 version, which I compared side by side for long 30 minutes. In fact, it took me that long to fully evaluate the subtle differences between the two.
In terms of tactile feel, the 2018 keyboard is tad softer and bouncy - resulting in a more satisfying experience. It is also slightly more forgiving. Basically, the 2018 keyboard is very near to keyboard perfection. The replacement keyboard on the other hand, is very very close to 2018 one - except for the tad softer and bouncier tactile feel. The difference is very very little but still noticeable.
Bottomline is 2018 version is naturally better one overall. But the replacement keyboard leaves nothing to complaint about. I guess 8 out of 10 people will like the replacement keyboard. I will personally prefer the 2018 version as it allows me to type away with less force and feels like it is loving back my fingers - which is a truly enjoyable experience.
Many people will actually like the replacement keyboard more than the 2018 version because the perceived travel is surely more in the replaced version. I personally don't care much about travel. The flip side of travel is the fact that it requires a bit more force - which I don't prefer. If I didn't experience the 2018, I would be 100% satisfied with the replaced version. It is definitely an enjoyable keyboard as well.
I am pretty sure this one is not 2017 version either. Maybe 2017B. Or maybe a reworked version.
Now, the question is, how is the replacement keyboard so quieter without the silicone membrane? And if silicone membrane is used, why is it not softer and bouncier? I guess it can only be found out if someone opens up a key cap (which I won't )
On another front, it was humiliating to see that 2018 base model 13-inch Core i5 is outperforming my 2016 2.7 GHz Core i7 in Geekbench. I am now thinking whether to switch to a 13-inch...
In terms of tactile feel, the 2018 keyboard is tad softer and bouncy - resulting in a more satisfying experience. It is also slightly more forgiving. Basically, the 2018 keyboard is very near to keyboard perfection. The replacement keyboard on the other hand, is very very close to 2018 one - except for the tad softer and bouncier tactile feel. The difference is very very little but still noticeable.
Bottomline is 2018 version is naturally better one overall. But the replacement keyboard leaves nothing to complaint about. I guess 8 out of 10 people will like the replacement keyboard. I will personally prefer the 2018 version as it allows me to type away with less force and feels like it is loving back my fingers - which is a truly enjoyable experience.
Many people will actually like the replacement keyboard more than the 2018 version because the perceived travel is surely more in the replaced version. I personally don't care much about travel. The flip side of travel is the fact that it requires a bit more force - which I don't prefer. If I didn't experience the 2018, I would be 100% satisfied with the replaced version. It is definitely an enjoyable keyboard as well.
I am pretty sure this one is not 2017 version either. Maybe 2017B. Or maybe a reworked version.
Now, the question is, how is the replacement keyboard so quieter without the silicone membrane? And if silicone membrane is used, why is it not softer and bouncier? I guess it can only be found out if someone opens up a key cap (which I won't
)On another front, it was humiliating to see that 2018 base model 13-inch Core i5 is outperforming my 2016 2.7 GHz Core i7 in Geekbench. I am now thinking whether to switch to a 13-inch...
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I give it 2-3 months before we see the first whining about 2018 macbook keyboard failures here.
If there isn't a peep about it by that point, the design may be fixed.
But there's no way in hell i'd even think about a new macbook before then.
If there isn't a peep about it by that point, the design may be fixed.
But there's no way in hell i'd even think about a new macbook before then.
Totally agree, but I think the membrane can do the job by preventing dust from getting into the keyboard.
BTW, in Australia the replacement keyboard has 3 more years of warranty from the date of receiving of the repaired unit.
They kept saying it is repaired under Australian Consumer Law rather than their own repair program (it seems ACCC might have already imposed some kind of terms on Apple for this repair).
They kept saying it is repaired under Australian Consumer Law rather than their own repair program (it seems ACCC might have already imposed some kind of terms on Apple for this repair).
I don't think we're going to see near the amount of problems with the new, 2018 keyboard as we did with the 16/17 keyboard. That issue will quietly go away, I predict. But I'm sure some other major issue will crop up, such as the throttling thing, and people will moan and groan just because they can. The Oracle has spoken.