I was seriously debating the 2015 MBP maxed out BUT, a bit BUT, before Apple pulled it from site, truth is Huawei was coming like a rocket. So it made no sense to spend 2,500$ on a 2015 when one spends LESS on higher build with Huawei? Caveat- their SSDs are slower, but everything from Intel to RAM is blazing. Apple is also planning to release its own chip. Remember what happened last time? They almost went under and had to witch back to Intel? So their gimmick processors, even though good, will not be optimized for applications designed with Intel in mind... Therefore it is more than just the keyboard, but the processor may become an issue as well..
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Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
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I was seriously debating the 2015 MBP maxed out BUT, a bit BUT, before Apple pulled it from site, truth is Huawei was coming like a rocket. So it made no sense to spend 2,500$ on a 2015 when one spends LESS on higher build with Huawei? Caveat- their SSDs are slower, but everything from Intel to RAM is blazing. Apple is also planning to release its own chip. Remember what happened last time? They almost went under and had to witch back to Intel? So their gimmick processors, even though good, will not be optimized for applications designed with Intel in mind... Therefore it is more than just the keyboard, but the processor may become an issue as well..
How is customer support/service for Hauwei. I have always been intrigued by the MateBook X Pro, except for a couple of small caveats. I hate their logo which looks like a cross between the NBC peacock and Japan Airlines and more important, I don't know enough about their customer support/warranty/after purchase care.
Are you sure an MBA can’t be used with a monitor? I have a basic 20 inch AOC LED Monitor, and most of what I do is not graphics intensive.....iWorks, safari, mail, calendar, notes, some simple photo edits, occasional simple iMovie videos. The MBA has integrated graphics that are better than the base headless Mac Mini.....I assume Apple designed the Mac Mini to work with an external monitor......just wondering why the MBA can’t be used with a monitor?
It can but the GPU will give up... The discrete GPU has to work multifold to export that bigger image and resolution.
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Reviews say that they are so eager to please and break into the North American market. But there are some Microsoft store relevant feedback of some issues- for Canadians mainly. Youtube reviews detail the experience with the unit. That aside, how good or relevant is Apple Care if a bad keyboard breaks up repetitively and the unit is gone for months or does not work, and is dead out of warranty, versus one that QC wise has shot past Apple as it used to be 10 years ago? I would also buy using a CC which doubles the manufacturer warranty. Some buy it via the Microsoft Store and get 3 years warranty so, basically, if in doubt, buy through Microsoft...
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So, would you not use a monitor with a base Mac Mini, which has inferior graphics compared to an MBA? How can so many people connect their 50 inch tv to a Mac Mini without having problems? There is a distinct possibility that I don’t understand how GPU work, so I am asking because I am confused. Also, does the MBA have discrete GPU or integrated GPU?
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The GPU changed every few years, unsure what year is your unit. Some had Intel HD Graphics 4000; but a MacMini was designed to ouput its signal, not your MBA (it can do it via Thunderbolt, but the engineering specs were for the screen resolution. Even though the processors is be the same, cannot compare gpus in a mini and MBA; circuit board characteristics, redundancies, voltages, COOLING etc all come in play. When using an MBA to a higher resolution output than the 1400 or so original, that GPU starts heating more. Heat is the enemy on small thin laptops. Then there is the output port, and how it works within the motherboard design. Not an issue for the mini, as it is purpose built to output.
The GPU changed every few years, unsure what year is your unit. Some had Intel HD Graphics 4000; but a MacMini was designed to ouput its signal, not your MBA (it can do it via Thunderbolt, but the engineering specs were for the screen resolution. Even though the processors is be the same, cannot compare gpus in a mini and MBA; circuit board characteristics, redundancies, voltages, COOLING etc all come in play. When using an MBA to a higher resolution output than the 1400 or so original, that GPU starts heating more. Heat is the enemy on small thin laptops. Then there is the output port, and how it works within the motherboard design. Not an issue for the mini, as it is purpose built to output.
Thanks. Your reply is helpful. My monitor is an inexpensive 20 inch LED screen 1600 x 900. From what you said, this could be problematic?
So my current MBP has now been working WHOLE EIGHT DAYS and I've done tons of typing (I had to catch up with a deadline that I almost missed thanks to the previous three MBPs, I edited someone else's text, and I'm working on something else in addition). So far no problems. Thing is...I don't trust it. I was going to turn this MBP into my only machine, give up on the Hackintosh. But when the keyboard broke in three laptops in a row I realised this was a mistake.
I am on the brink of deciding to Hack a X1 Carbon. I also love how Matebook X Pro looks. And I could perhaps run the few Mac-only apps in a VM (I can't imagine Scrivener running an i7 processor to the ground). I hate Windows, I can't help it. I love macOS, as imperfect as it is. But I must have a machine I can trust, and I don't want to own two laptops.
I'm waiting to see that new "Macbook Air With Retina And Hopefully Not A Butterjam Keyboard", but my hopes are not high.
I am on the brink of deciding to Hack a X1 Carbon. I also love how Matebook X Pro looks. And I could perhaps run the few Mac-only apps in a VM (I can't imagine Scrivener running an i7 processor to the ground). I hate Windows, I can't help it. I love macOS, as imperfect as it is. But I must have a machine I can trust, and I don't want to own two laptops.
I'm waiting to see that new "Macbook Air With Retina And Hopefully Not A Butterjam Keyboard", but my hopes are not high.
You can use an external eGPU enclosure with a dedicated GPU like a AMD RX580, which makes a Macbook Air a real powerhouse on the desktop, with possible multi 4K display setup, hardware acceleration for supporting apps asf., but keeps it a killer mobile machine when you detach it and go on the road.
I can appreciate what you are feeling. I recently returned #4, even though I liked it (other than the miserable keyboard) and finally had a unit that I was having no issues or problems. I decided that even though #4 was working beautifully in the here and now of a 14-day span, that I also ultimately didn’t trust it for the long haul.
This! On a replacement 2018 model now and although this is supposed to be a more durable keyboard upgrade, it is still the same failed butterfly design. Never before have I ever feared a laptop keyboard would malfuction because of regular use. Never ever.
The assumption is incorrect as it does not reflect industrial reliability stat calculations. Nor does it account for users getting keys stuck but waiting it out (permanent fix) while under Apple Care, partial erratic, or those using units as desktop machines with an external keyboard.
The actual figure MUST be above 30% and let us explain why your 1% is IMPOSSIBLE. For someone like Casey Johnson to get three failed keyboards, your 1% means that her odds of failure, using your 1%, should be 0.01x0.01x0.01=0.000001 or ONE IN A MILLION. To get a FOURTH unit fail are one in a hundreds million. Do you believe repetitively winning 6/49? Because your 1% implies that. Repeat 6/49 BAD luck winners come here with the same story. That is statistically, well, impossible.
At 10% means 1 in a thousand odds of getting three bad keyboard, and one in ten thousands of getting four. Very much unlikely.
The only figure that satisfies the 3d KB failure is 30% or more. Much more is likely. BTW the same argument was used when helping people trying to understand why their overclock computer SSDs for Macs, failing 4th weeks, 6th months, 2nd year, 3d year. the reason why Apple Microsoft Dell charge hundreds of $ per 256Gb is because the industrial reliability is 1/10000 failures, one of the highest I wish for all components. The old HDDs were 10% first year, and some 80% by year 4.
What trully matters is that I walked into two Apple stores and nearly 1 in 2 of the 2017 Macbooks there, including one to demo an LG monitor, so not actually used, have 2-5 unresponsive keys. Again, your 1% is impossible, or statistically below astronomically unlikely. Or, contrary, you must come here and advance the counterargument to EVERY owner claiming 3d or 4th keyboard failure that they keep beating one in a hundred million to billion odds. Not so.
yes, this is a bad problem as at 300$ actual cost for Apple to repair, 50% failure (and year two is easily higher than that) means 40,000,000 x 0.5= 20,000,000 x 300$ = 6 billion $. Still small vs 200 billion reserves, but a brutal 3% share hit. Now you get it why they do not respond. Of course, if it costs them 500$ per kb= 10 bn$ recall. They do charge 700 in store (before the warranty).
This issue can only grow bigger, especially that some countries have stronger consumer protection legislation. It is a mess.
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If you ever used a butterfly type mechanism before, I never knew one that actually worked. The two workhorses are mechanical and membrane, as chiclet was. billions of proven strokes. The butterjam was doomed the moment I saw the keynode in 2016. Tiny plastic arms, 39-40C heat (the softening temp for most polymers), what are the odds it ever could have worked? Nil. Even if they made it of titanium, nil. Too complex. However, unlike the screen delamination or 400 million NVIDIA issue, Apple, this time, has only itself to blame. All billions it will cost to recall fix or replace.
Jeez, if I could be that lucky when playing the lottery...!
Quick question regarding random repeating keys / sticky keys / keys don't register – did anyone who took his/hers MacBook Pro 2018 back to Apple for a replacement machine NOT get the same issue with the replacement machine? In other words: why bother taking it back if so many of these keyboards are faulty?
Your argument about the probability of 3 failed keyboards in a row for a single user is interesting. I never looked at it this way. 1% absolutely doesn't make any sense. 1% is roughly throwing the same number on a dice three times in a row. So three keyboard failures is 9 same numbers in a row. That's Vegas lucky.
Yet 30% sounds so horribly much and also brings the questions of a very large pool of users not even noticing the problems.
We have 11 2016 MBPros in our group, all bought in November-December 2016. No keyboard problems. By your logic, we should be buying lottery tickets because we are the luckiest people on earth!
The AppleInsider and Consumer Reports statistics are the only hard numbers I've seen on this. They seem to indicate a failure rate around 8-12% depending on year. It simply could not be 30% or more, from the simple fact Apple would not have released a 2017 and 2018 model using something with such a high failure rate: they couldn't afford it.
The fact that people are reporting multiple failures does point to something more going on: specifically I think there is some usage pattern that has repeated problems. For example, running hot for extended periods of time, perhaps running hot and hitting the keys hard, etc. I think the fact Apple is still asking people with 2018 returns to send them in to engineering means they haven't figured it out either.
Your numbers, while totally speculative, would point to them not releasing the 2017/2018 models with the keyboards.
What I find interesting, is the butterfly mechanism was put into the 12" MacBook years before the Pro, and have not had these reported problems. One clue to the difference? The 12" has a low-heat processor.
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I believe all Magic Keyboards have standard scissor mechanism.
Magic Keyboard combines a sleek design with a built-in rechargeable battery and enhanced key features. With a stable scissor mechanism beneath each key, as well as optimized key travel and a low profile, Magic Keyboard provides a remarkably comfortable and precise typing experience.
(from Apple.com)
(from Apple.com)
Stable mechanism!
All of these scissor-style keyboards are faulty. It is a design and materials issue. Failure is not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" and to some extent depends on use-case scenarios (e.g. hot-cold cycles by users who tax their systems).
Your logic is faulty. Apple would release and has released faulty products. Their history is littered with such products and their response is to either blame the customer and charge them for Apple's design issue (e.g. iPhone 6+) or to replace faulty parts in their products (e.g. 2011 MBP GPUs/logic boards) when they fail until the warranty is exhausted. Apple has never repaired their devices; they have only ever replaced faulty parts with the same faulty parts.
It's not that they and everyone else hasn't released faulty products, it's that they wouldn't knowingly re-release a design-failure on the next generation product... at least intentionally!
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But again, the 12" MacBook came out in April 2015... I don't believe they have these failure problems.
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You're right, my mistake...
We have 11 2016 MBPros in our group, all bought in November-December 2016. No keyboard problems. By your logic, we should be buying lottery tickets because we are the luckiest people on earth!
The AppleInsider and Consumer Reports statistics are the only hard numbers I've seen on this. They seem to indicate a failure rate around 8-12% depending on year. It simply could not be 30% or more, from the simple fact Apple would not have released a 2017 and 2018 model using something with such a high failure rate: they couldn't afford it.
The fact that people are reporting multiple failures does point to something more going on: specifically I think there is some usage pattern that has repeated problems. For example, running hot for extended periods of time, perhaps running hot and hitting the keys hard, etc. I think the fact Apple is still asking people with 2018 returns to send them in to engineering means they haven't figured it out either.
Your numbers, while totally speculative, would point to them not releasing the 2017/2018 models with the keyboards.
What I find interesting, is the butterfly mechanism was put into the 12" MacBook years before the Pro, and have not had these reported problems. One clue to the difference? The 12" has a low-heat processor.Also, the external butterfly keyboard works fine as well (albeit with deeper travel).EDIT: External uses scissor mechanism.
If by usage patterns ou mean actual typing, academic work, processor productivity or arts, stuff that creates pressure and heat, this automatically eliminates people using theirs for click surfing or with an external keyboard or rarely at all. Right? Because I have not met an actual grad student using one WITHOUT ISSUES. Unsure what your example or sample pretends to be, does not sound convincing.
The numbers are not speculative; stats are not speculative, deductive logic is not. Anyone arguing a 1% failure rate is speculating and mathematically out to astronomical lunch as that would indeed render the issue rare. The fact that one finds such malfunctioning units in Apple store as display should cue in that it is not a simple issue.
Red your 12 inch MacBook i know no one using it as it’s processor is not even good enough for word +adobe+ browsing. Click and surf seems most likely and that narrows it down. If the unit is not actually usable for 500,000 typed academic words Masters, a 10.000 lifetime email usage hardly renders that platform a good benchmark. A MBP is, hope it is, actually used. When I donate mine they are usually used as click and surf mouse movement by elderly folks.
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Partially true. With the NVIDIA chip fiasco which cost NViDIA 400 million USD in 2012-2014, logo boards with better solders where released. Apple issues a silent recall but o found it online and got a unit still working. BUT many people would have concluded that their 4 yr old MacBook Pro 2400$ was dead therefore BUY A NEW ONE. Did they issue an email recall? Noooo. In other cases Apple did wait it out as the industry does. This current issue is bad one due to scale; decades ago they were not selling the 10 million maca every couple of months and definitely not with a 700$ unrepairable Keybord of all things. Nor is apple alone: when surface screens died, Microsoft replaced them with equally failing units which drove bonkers owners with 1 year old by working screens.
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We have 11 2016 MBPros in our group, all bought in November-December 2016. No keyboard problems. By your logic, we should be buying lottery tickets because we are the luckiest people on earth!
The AppleInsider and Consumer Reports statistics are the only hard numbers I've seen on this. They seem to indicate a failure rate around 8-12% depending on year. It simply could not be 30% or more, from the simple fact Apple would not have released a 2017 and 2018 model using something with such a high failure rate: they couldn't afford it.
The fact that people are reporting multiple failures does point to something more going on: specifically I think there is some usage pattern that has repeated problems. For example, running hot for extended periods of time, perhaps running hot and hitting the keys hard, etc. I think the fact Apple is still asking people with 2018 returns to send them in to engineering means they haven't figured it out either.
Your numbers, while totally speculative, would point to them not releasing the 2017/2018 models with the keyboards.
What I find interesting, is the butterfly mechanism was put into the 12" MacBook years before the Pro, and have not had these reported problems. One clue to the difference? The 12" has a low-heat processor.Also, the external butterfly keyboard works fine as well (albeit with deeper travel).EDIT: External uses scissor mechanism.
Not only were 12” MacBooks affected but free repairs cover them as well.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/9to5mac.com/2017/01/23/12-inch-macbook-stuck-keys/amp/
And many more testimonials. Since I suspect that power users never adopted them I would never compare them with MBPs...
We have 11 2016 MBPros in our group, all bought in November-December 2016. No keyboard problems. By your logic, we should be buying lottery tickets because we are the luckiest people on earth!
The AppleInsider and Consumer Reports statistics are the only hard numbers I've seen on this. They seem to indicate a failure rate around 8-12% depending on year. It simply could not be 30% or more, from the simple fact Apple would not have released a 2017 and 2018 model using something with such a high failure rate: they couldn't afford it.
The fact that people are reporting multiple failures does point to something more going on: specifically I think there is some usage pattern that has repeated problems. For example, running hot for extended periods of time, perhaps running hot and hitting the keys hard, etc. I think the fact Apple is still asking people with 2018 returns to send them in to engineering means they haven't figured it out either.
Your numbers, while totally speculative, would point to them not releasing the 2017/2018 models with the keyboards.
What I find interesting, is the butterfly mechanism was put into the 12" MacBook years before the Pro, and have not had these reported problems. One clue to the difference? The 12" has a low-heat processor.Also, the external butterfly keyboard works fine as well (albeit with deeper travel).EDIT: External uses scissor mechanism.
The AppleInsider data didn’t show an overall failure rate of 8-12%. It said that of all those 2016/2017 MBP presented for service, 8-12% were for keyboard problems. The other approx 90% came in for service for some other reason.
But most 2016/2017 MBP never came in for service at all, because they never had a problem of any kind. Only if every single one of the 20-25 million 2016/2017 MBP sold came in for service would the overall failure rate be 8-12%.
As I said in my original post, if one assumes an overall failure rate of 10% of the 20-25 million 2016/2017 MBP sold needed service of any kind, that’s 2-2.5 million going in for service for any failure. And it’s only 8-12% of those that had keyboard problems, so 200k-250k.
That’s the only hard data available, and any one person’s anecdotal experience is not relevant, whether it’s Casey Johnson or poorcody with 11 that had zero kb failures. As time goes on, we’ll get more stats on additional failures; I’m sure AppleInsider will provide updates. They have very good contacts within the Mac repair industry.
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I am new to Macrumors and here because I am also on my 4th MBP since mid-Sept.
I just got the 4th one about a week ago and already the "e" "tt" and "r" keys are starting to repeat. I am meticulous with my machines so crumbs in the keyboard are not an issue. Prior to this computer I was on my late 2013 MBP which I loved except for the fact that thee retina display had to be replaced 3 times for delaminating issues, and they last time, they told me too bad, they wouldn't replace it again.
I will say that I found an amazing Manager att Apple who has been wonderful and replaced all of the MBP's no questions asked.
I am just at a complete loss and can't believe that there are only a handful of people with the 2018 MBP's dealing with this issue when all 4 of my new 2018 MPS's having failing keyboards.
My entire set up and family is on Apple products and the thought of moving to one PC is daunting.
I could get my 2013 MPB screen replaced again and stick with that machine, or maybe the new MBA coming out will have a revamped keyboard? Any insight from anyone on the MBA?
Wow. We are a software development shop. We use the laptop's keyboards because we make extensive use of the Touchbar to share development macros to standardize code conventions and automate our internal processes. So we have been using 11 machines full-time with the internal keyboards for almost two years. No problems...
That being said, I agree with @PickUrPoison, in that we shouldn't use anecdotal experience (even our own) to make conclusions. That's why the AppleInsider data is interesting, and consistent with Apple's response, and frankly the rare piece of hard data that I've seen on this issue.
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