Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[SDColorado]

I am new to Macrumors and here because I am also on my 4th MBP since mid-Sept.
I just got the 4th one about a week ago and already the "e" "tt" and "r" keys are starting to repeat. I am meticulous with my machines so crumbs in the keyboard are not an issue. Prior to this computer I was on my late 2013 MBP which I loved except for the fact that thee retina display had to be replaced 3 times for delaminating issues, and they last time, they told me too bad, they wouldn't replace it again.
I will say that I found an amazing Manager att Apple who has been wonderful and replaced all of the MBP's no questions asked.
I am just at a complete loss and can't believe that there are only a handful of people with the 2018 MBP's dealing with this issue when all 4 of my new 2018 MPS's having failing keyboards.

My entire set up and family is on Apple products and the thought of moving to one PC is daunting.
I could get my 2013 MPB screen replaced again and stick with that machine, or maybe the new MBA coming out will have a revamped keyboard? Any insight from anyone on the MBA?

You know, I went through the same thing with my 2013 as well, having the screen replaced 3 times due to delamination. That was why I made the decision to sell that one. You definitely are *not* alone in having several MBP's with failing keyboard issues. @navaira, Casey Johnson and a few others have had similar experiences with multiple bad keyboards.

To be fair only 1 in 4 of the ones I had were returned due to the keyboard, but first 3 had some kind of issue. The 4th I returned simply because my trust in Apple to build a reliable and durable computer and not stick it to users down the road simply ran out. After having nothing but Apples for the past 12 years, I find I have replaced one with a PC the past couple years now. I really do hope Apple gets their **** together soon and offers a redesigned MBP in 2019.

 

[navaira]

You definitely are *not* alone in having several MBP's with failing keyboard issues. @navaira, Casey Johnson and a few others have had similar experiences with multiple bad keyboards.

I think that there's a chance Apple produced certain batches of laptops that had keyboard problems showing up so fast. So far the fourth one I have is doing well, but I went for a slightly different model (as in €500 more expensive...). And the Apple ER person asked me to immediately get in touch if the keyboard starts acting out again. Which is nice. But I still have very little trust in this laptop now.

2015 rMBs were mentioned earlier – there were tens of threads about keyboard problems with those! I wish Apple would just admit those keyboards were a bad idea altogether, but you know, thin.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Wow. We are a software development shop. We use the laptop's keyboards because we make extensive use of the Touchbar to share development macros to standardize code conventions and automate our internal processes. So we have been using 11 machines full-time with the internal keyboards for almost two years. No problems.

What those who are having kb problems don’t understand is that there are millions of machines that have no issue. There’s obviously a problem, but it seemingly relates to a manufacturing run, some assembly or materials issue, an interaction with other components or who knows what.

I’d guess that the legal actions being pursued by affected users will shed more light on the cause and failure rates, but it’s not 100% of the 20-25 million butterfly keyboards that are in use. It’s more nuanced than “keyboard sucks, inherent design flaw”.

 

[SDColorado]

I think that there's a chance Apple produced certain batches of laptops that had keyboard problems showing up so fast. So far the fourth one I have is doing well, but I went for a slightly different model (as in €500 more expensive...). And the Apple ER person asked me to immediately get in touch if the keyboard starts acting out again. Which is nice. But I still have very little trust in this laptop now.

2015 rMBs were mentioned earlier – there were tens of threads about keyboard problems with those! I wish Apple would just admit those keyboards were a bad idea altogether, but you know, thin.

Which models did you have trouble with? All of mine have been the 2.9 models. The first two I had were shipped to me. They had other issues, but the keyboard was fine, #3 was picked up locally and had keyboard issues, #4 was also picked up locally and did not appear to have any issues. So no real pattern on my part.

 

[Jinx Mac]

I think that there's a chance Apple produced certain batches of laptops that had keyboard problems showing up so fast. So far the fourth one I have is doing well, but I went for a slightly different model (as in €500 more expensive...). And the Apple ER person asked me to immediately get in touch if the keyboard starts acting out again. Which is nice. But I still have very little trust in this laptop now.

2015 rMBs were mentioned earlier – there were tens of threads about keyboard problems with those! I wish Apple would just admit those keyboards were a bad idea altogether, but you know, thin.

I wonder also if that is the case. I'm actually considering downgrading to the new MBP without the TB just to see if it is a model issue, but my guess is no as I'm sure all of us that are suffering through multiple failing 2018 keyboards didn't all have thee same ;-) At the advice of Apple, I will wait and see what is announced on the 31st. If it is a new Air then perhaps I will try that. As of right now, on the 4th new MBP since Sept. and all having had keyboard issues within 10 days of migrating data, I have no faith. I'm at a loss, and I'm shocked that Apple isn't ALL over this. I did read somewhere on this thread that someone emailed Tim Cook and got a response, I think I will too.

 

[Val-kyrie]

The AppleInsider data didn’t show an overall failure rate of 8-12%. It said that of all those 2016/2017 MBP presented for service, 8-12% were for keyboard problems. The other approx 90% came in for service for some other reason.

But most 2016/2017 MBP never came in for service at all, because they never had a problem of any kind. Only if every single one of the 20-25 million 2016/2017 MBP sold came in for service would the overall failure rate be 8-12%.

As I said in my original post, if one assumes an overall failure rate of 10% of the 20-25 million 2016/2017 MBP sold needed service of any kind, that’s 2-2.5 million going in for service for any failure. And it’s only 8-12% of those that had keyboard problems, so 200k-250k.

That’s the only hard data available, and any one person’s anecdotal experience is not relevant, whether it’s Casey Johnson or poorcody with 11 that had zero kb failures. As time goes on, we’ll get more stats on additional failures; I’m sure AppleInsider will provide updates. They have very good contacts within the Mac repair industry.

I am new to Macrumors and here because I am also on my 4th MBP since mid-Sept.
I just got the 4th one about a week ago and already the "e" "tt" and "r" keys are starting to repeat. I am meticulous with my machines so crumbs in the keyboard are not an issue. Prior to this computer I was on my late 2013 MBP which I loved except for the fact that thee retina display had to be replaced 3 times for delaminating issues, and they last time, they told me too bad, they wouldn't replace it again.
I will say that I found an amazing Manager att Apple who has been wonderful and replaced all of the MBP's no questions asked.
I am just at a complete loss and can't believe that there are only a handful of people with the 2018 MBP's dealing with this issue when all 4 of my new 2018 MPS's having failing keyboards.

My entire set up and family is on Apple products and the thought of moving to one PC is daunting.
I could get my 2013 MPB screen replaced again and stick with that machine, or maybe the new MBA coming out will have a revamped keyboard? Any insight from anyone on the MBA?

Part of the problem and perhaps lack of problems being reported may be due to user ignorance. I remember when an Apple OS update created a bug whereby the first letter typed on a keyboard would not register. My dad thought it was his fault (e.g. Not pushing the key down hard enough) until I told him about the bug.

Also, fewer users are doing extensive typing on their keyboards either because they don't write much or because like me they use an external keyboard much of the time. Regardless, I will not give Apple my money for what is certainly a flawed keyboard design.

I’m starting to think Apple should switch to ARM for the Mac and just merge iOS and MacOS, AppleOS.

Be careful what you wish for....

 

[ROSC00]

Part of the problem and perhaps lack of problems being reported may be due to user ignorance. I remember when an Apple OS update created a bug whereby the first letter typed on a keyboard would not register. My dad thought it was his fault (e.g. Not pushing the key down hard enough) until I told him about the bug.

Also, fewer users are doing extensive typing on their keyboards either because they don't write much or because like me they use an external keyboard much of the time. Regardless, I will not give Apple my money for what is certainly a flawed keyboard design.




Be careful what you wish for....

IF AppleInsider gets the data. You should check the CBC investigation report (available online) which proves that repairable issues are sold as "better to replace your Mac" by staffers. And fighting the right to repair.

Stats are not heuristics. AppleInsider's 2000 units sample is simply too small. How many times I called Apple Support and they shipped me a replacement unit bypassing the store? No amount of figures you provide, 1-10% does not produce the results you claim. It is not just Casey Johnson, but a legion of Apple users with multiple repeats. Now, Casey Johnson uses hers journalistically, so 500,000 typed words in 2-3 years is REASONABLE. Her getting 3 fails, and all others claiming 4- we are now talking with 30% FAIL RATE BECAUSE MATH SAY SO UNIVERSALLY. 25,000,000 units. 10% = one in a thousand odds. Multiple people reporting the same enters the astronomical level. ASSUME 30% or more AND THAT ASSUMPTION MAKES SENSE.

Second assumption that does not make sensE: USE. I walked in Apple store and found DAY OLD demos already not working. Some, like in the video link below, used as a LG 4k monitor, so it is not used for actual demo typing. Video says it all. Ok, if you assume 1/10 then that should have been the only one. i found 3 out of 8 2018 displayed units having the issue.

The 250,000 is a reasonable extrapolation. then you have to use the industrial failure rate and degradation. If 10% first year, Year 4 is usually usually x300% so 10% year one - 30% year 4. However, absent data and the fragility of the system, am not willing to venture such low figures, e.g. 30%.

But no matter what you believe, if users come complain that they get, with reasonable use, 3-4 replacement keyboards in months, the failure rate for that batch and usage type IS 30% or higher. Not what you think, sample or not. It is an industrial degradation and reliability benchmark. Same way NO ONE leaves a car lot with THREE LEMONS IN A ROW FOR THE EXACT SAME ISSUE. If SO, the entire batch was messed. Now, if only 10% of Macbook users actually type as I do or Casey Johnson, that is a different story. So we are now talking 0.3x 2,500.000= 750,000 units per year. But the 10% makes no sense, the assumption is not mathematically cogent to explain repeat failures in identical circumstances. Or me walking in Apple stores and finding new demos with unresponsive keys. What is the usage then? It resting on the table?

IF it was 10%, that is actually industrially acceptable (maybe not Apple and not legally for the price). 1 percent Apple would be laughing. At 30%, Apple institutes a massive recall. And, as I pointed out, even the low usage 12" unit has users reporting failures.

If 30% of users use the pro's solidly for school, then it is 2.25 million defective units/ year. Still a lot.

Anyway, video below. New, unused unit. Apple staffers pretended "We do not get it, it is never used!" lol. I do. Math is fun!

 

[Jinx Mac]

You know, I went through the same thing with my 2013 as well, having the screen replaced 3 times due to delamination. That was why I made the decision to sell that one. You definitely are *not* alone in having several MBP's with failing keyboard issues. @navaira, Casey Johnson and a few others have had similar experiences with multiple bad keyboards.

To be fair only 1 in 4 of the ones I had were returned due to the keyboard, but first 3 had some kind of issue. The 4th I returned simply because my trust in Apple to build a reliable and durable computer and not stick it to users down the road simply ran out. After having nothing but Apples for the past 12 years, I find I have replaced one with a PC the past couple years now. I really do hope Apple gets their **** together soon and offers a redesigned MBP in 2019.

I'm not at all ssurprised - Seeems Apple neeeds to figure it out very quickly. I am at a loss as to what to do. I'm thinking I will return this computer and perhaps just have the screeen on my 2013 MBP fixed and waitt until there is an acknowledged fix to this ongoing problem. I really hope that tthere is an alternative to that in the Oct. 31 announcement though.
As my day has gone on the keys have gotten worse. I simply stop fixing typos and explain to people that my brand new $2k 2018 MBP doesn't work properly.

 

[SDColorado]

I'm not at all ssurprised - Seeems Apple neeeds to figure it out very quickly. I am at a loss as to what to do. I'm thinking I will return this computer and perhaps just have the screeen on my 2013 MBP fixed and waitt until there is an acknowledged fix to this ongoing problem. I really hope that tthere is an alternative to that in the Oct. 31 announcement though.
As my day has gone on the keys have gotten worse. I simply stop fixing typos and explain to people that my brand new $2k 2018 MBP doesn't work properly.

I would have done the same as you had I not given my 2016 to my wife (which has so far worked flawlessly) and sold 2013 prior to buying 2018. The 2013 is long gone and I am not going to ask my wife to give me back the 2016, which I gave her to replace her now dead Mac.

So I gave it a good run with the 2018 MBP's and after the frustration and wasted time with the previous 3, I thought I would still give it one more shot. But in the end, despite #4 not having problems within the 14-day window, I returned it.
Now I say #4 had no problems, but it did oddly display 97% battery health at 2 cycles right out of the box. That did seem a bit odd that it would be down 3% health right out of the box with 2 cycles. But probably a minor issue.

I just decided I didn't trust it for the long haul. I just didn't feel like playing the waiting game to see if the keyboard was going to fail or if it was going to start to kernel panic or if it was going to have some other issue that was going to require sending it in for a new logic board and top case.

Macs have been my favorite laptops, but I will sit this round out. The 2016 should hopefully keep working for my wife since she uses an external keyboard almost exclusively.

 

[ROSC00]

I'm not at all ssurprised - Seeems Apple neeeds to figure it out very quickly. I am at a loss as to what to do. I'm thinking I will return this computer and perhaps just have the screeen on my 2013 MBP fixed and waitt until there is an acknowledged fix to this ongoing problem. I really hope that tthere is an alternative to that in the Oct. 31 announcement though.
As my day has gone on the keys have gotten worse. I simply stop fixing typos and explain to people that my brand new $2k 2018 MBP doesn't work properly.

No no no no no do not replace the 2013 screen - unless a tearit expert finds a 200$ issue. Best to buy a fully loaded 2015 unit second hand from a source you trust, or a good distributor. Then take it to Apple Store and verify it works. Including adobe word pdfs all opened, 16 gb ram should give you no lag.. Other users traded their for a Mac; In my case, repeat fail during Apple Care and I always got a prorated upgrade, with full credit for the non working-unit BUT I never had a keyboard issue. If you can use a separate KB, may be an option to wait it out until 2 months before Apple Care expiruy.

that aside I am not touching anything with scissors or butterfly or any tiny arms..

 

[Jinx Mac]

I would have done the same as you had I not given my 2016 to my wife (which has so far worked flawlessly) and sold 2013 prior to buying 2018. The 2013 is long gone and I am not going to ask my wife to give me back the 2016, which I gave her to replace her now dead Mac.

So I gave it a good run with the 2018 MBP's and after the frustration and wasted time with the previous 3, I thought I would still give it one more shot. But in the end, despite #4 not having problems within the 14-day window, I returned it.
Now I say #4 had no problems, but it did oddly display 97% battery health at 2 cycles right out of the box. That did seem a bit odd that it would be down 3% health right out of the box with 2 cycles. But probably a minor issue.

I just decided I didn't trust it for the long haul. I just didn't feel like playing the waiting game to see if the keyboard was going to fail or if it was going to start to kernel panic or if it was going to have some other issue that was going to require sending it in for a new logic board and top case.

Macs have been my favorite laptops, but I will sit this round out. The 2016 should hopefully keep working for my wife since she uses an external keyboard almost exclusively.

Don't blame you AT all! My husband thinks I am insane for even trying 4 new macs. Problem is, I really liked every other thing about this new Mac. I am still blown away that I am on the 4tth computer and having the same issues.
It was even suggested that perhaps I had a virus migrating over from my old data (which would make more seense to me than this) but when we creaeteed the enew guest account the keeyboard had the samee issues. So totally disappointed!

 

[ROSC00]

What those who are having kb problems don’t understand is that there are millions of machines that have no issue. There’s obviously a problem, but it seemingly relates to a manufacturing run, some assembly or materials issue, an interaction with other components or who knows what.

I’d guess that the legal actions being pursued by affected users will shed more light on the cause and failure rates, but it’s not 100% of the 20-25 million butterfly keyboards that are in use. It’s more nuanced than “keyboard sucks, inherent design flaw”.

BS. Utter BS. When I was corresponding with editors on what became Battery Gate, the deflection rebuttal is that "millions work." We demonstrated, and my Canadian colleague did so EMPIRICALLY, that it was an actual issue, software induced, deliberate throttling, for a PREDICTABLE EARLY BATTERY FAILURE. Initially some tracked our accounts and came within a hair's width of being banned for giving people the correct advice. My argument on the forums at the time was that the batteries were all defective for symptomatic users. People disagreeing wanted to prove that PHONES were all faulty. I knew the tech, controller technology, how the Li Ion travel in cycle from pole to pole..

Then, it all stopped. Apple came forth to admit to throttling, and instituted the recall. Again, the average battery lasts 1 year safely, maybe less if heat exposed e.g. beach. But Apple instituted a UNIVERSAL FREE BATTERY REPLACEMENT that was wildly successful.. I also got dozens of apologies that admitted having done everything to get my apple forum account yanked... But then again, i was working with tech insiders... But also had dozens more that had their issue resolved by getting their battery replaced in warranty. People could not believe that Li Ion batteries last, at best, ONE YEAR (my first one on 6S, 6 months). NO WAAY APPLE WOULD LET THIS. Samsung anyone???

SO MUCH FOR "MILLIONS THAT WORKED" Yes, the SE was relatively immune as its small 5 size had the highest native G resistance (thousands). Whereas any S or higher with a single fall could bend and return to size in fractions of a hundreds of a s. That battery just took a micro heart attack. On the SE, unaffected, no chance as it was a rock solid piece of metal.
Hick, and am sure you would agree, a 29$ battery replacement is NOT the same as a 700$ KB replacement with a design thickness concealing INHERENT FLAWS under Pro Usage above click and surf...

 

[SDColorado]

Don't blame you AT all! My husband thinks I am insane for even trying 4 new macs. Problem is, I really liked every other thing about this new Mac. I am still blown away that I am on the 4tth computer and having the same issues.
It was even suggested that perhaps I had a virus migrating over from my old data (which would make more seense to me than this) but when we creaeteed the enew guest account the keeyboard had the samee issues. So totally disappointed!

It’s not a virus either. It’s not you, it’s them

My wife loves Mac as well and would be far more resistant to cutting ties than me. It is easier for me to make a change than her. I needed to use Windows anyway so picked up a Surface Pro to do that with. I hadn’t used Windows since XP, but I picked it up quickly and am comfortable with either. I still prefer MacOS for sure, but not impressed with the current trend in Mac hardware.

 

[AppleHaterLover]

BS. Utter BS. When I was corresponding with editors on what became Battery Gate, the deflection rebuttal that Verge or Fortune etc got is that "millions work." We demonstrated, and my Canadian colleague did so EMPIRICALLY, that it was an actual issue, software induced, deliberate throttling, for a PREDICTABLE EARLY BATTERY performance drop for all iphones.. Initially some tracked our accounts and came within a hair's width of being banned for giving people the correct advice. My argument on the forums at the time was that the batteries were all defective for symptomatic users. People disagreeing wanted to prove that PHONES were all faulty. I knew the tech, controller technology, how the Li Ion travel in cycle from pole to pole..

Then, it all stopped. Apple came forth to admit to throttling, and instituted the recall. Again, the average battery lasts 1 year safely, maybe less if heat exposed e.g. beach. But Apple instituted a UNIVERSAL FREE BATTERY REPLACEMENT that was wildly successful..

I also got dozens of apologies that admitted having done everything to get my apple forum account yanked... But then again, i was working with tech insiders...

SO MUCH FOR "MILLIONS THAT WORKED" Yes, the SE was relatively immune as its small 5 size had the highest native G resistance (thousands). Whereas any S or higher with a single fall could bend and return to size in fractions of a hundreds of a s. That battery just took a micro heart attack. On the SE, unaffected, no chance as it was a rock solid piece of metal.
Hick, and am sure you would agree, a 29$ battery replacement is NOT the same as a 700$ KB replacement with a design thickness concealing INHERENT FLAWS under Pro Usage above click and surf...

You seem agitated. Calm down.

Regarding battery gate - previously old iPhones would simply TURN OFF suddenly when the battery became old. The only issue is that Apple failed to make people aware that BATTERIES ARE CONSUMABLES and THEY WILL FAIL at some point when past the number of cycles they were designed for.

I don't know where you are coming from implying that Batterygate has anything whatsoever to do with Bendgate. When Bendgate came along, there was no iPhone SE.

Finally, as I'm sure you're aware, Apple WILL REPLACE the ENTIRE TOP CASE for ALL FAILED MACBOOK PRO KEYBOARDS.

What the **** am I missing here? Do you want Tim Cook to issue you a personal apology, or pay you a visit to kiss your ass????

 

[ROSC00]

Don't blame you AT all! My husband thinks I am insane for even trying 4 new macs. Problem is, I really liked every other thing about this new Mac. I am still blown away that I am on the 4tth computer and having the same issues.
It was even suggested that perhaps I had a virus migrating over from my old data (which would make more seense to me than this) but when we creaeteed the enew guest account the keeyboard had the samee issues. So totally disappointed!

No you are NOT insane!!! My Macbook Pro 2008 was the last one that worked out of the box. x3 MBA 2012 arrived from PRC defective- trackpad shortcircuit, defective LCD AND SWOLLEN BATTERY AND DEFORMED MBA. 4th one worked UNTIL ITS GPU GAVE UP AFTER 7 months abroad... MBP 2012 had a NVIDIA logicboard recall, 2012 replaced, STILL works.. 2015, I replaced the faulty MBA under Apple Care with a MBP. Three arrived with blue circle crashes. Apple Sr said right away faulty hardware... Store refused to believe by 3d.. But they were obliged to replace with another custom (I usually up the specs). That 2015 is still great, 800 cycles, 7 months abroad as well, and a rock. Meanwhile I read discrete articles detailing upset PRC employees sabotaging Macbook lines (can be very easy and latent if knowing what to do with a low voltage and a magnet). Anyway, 12,000$ for Apple to get me two working macbooks. that is when I realized that mass globalization and subcontracting diluted QC. When Steve Jobs made those garage Macintosh, they were SOLID and still run today if maintained!!!
[doublepost=1540256228][/doublepost]

You seem agitated. Calm down.

Regarding battery gate - previously old iPhones would simply TURN OFF suddenly when the battery became old. The only issue is that Apple failed to make people aware that BATTERIES ARE CONSUMABLES and THEY WILL FAIL at some point when past the number of cycles they were designed for.

I don't know where you are coming from implying that Batterygate has anything whatsoever to do with Bendgate. When Bendgate came along, there was no iPhone SE.

Finally, as I'm sure you're aware, Apple WILL REPLACE the ENTIRE TOP CASE for ALL FAILED MACBOOK PRO KEYBOARDS.

What the **** am I missing here? Do you want Tim Cook to issue you a personal apology, or pay you a visit to kiss your ass????

No need for TC apology as I only tried and returned the faulty one in 30 days. What you do not understand, starts with the question: HOW DO YOU USE YOURS? In the last three years my last two Macbooks saw the Iraqi desert, no issues, and other isolated placed where not an Apple Store was available within three neighbouring countries, NOR WOULD FEDEX deliver there. Continued graduate work, including learning new subjects. They work. You bump into an archaeologist doing digs or a Medecin Sans Frontieres that finishes his or her report on a Mac, THEY WORK. Not the new ones. Wait, USB keyboard- NEED A ADONGLE!

If you use yours at home, less typing and research, then you perhaps cannot comprehend when academics journalists or researches get stuck unable to type! or fix... for months? Fourth time?? The average person I helped on this issue (full returns) do not get the inside construct like oyu or I. They are just stuck....Calling across time zones with non working 1-800 numbers (cannto call it from other continents).. Tried PCs as well to keep on top, they are garbage. Huawei has QC issues; Hp overheats (90C), Dell overheats (polycarbonate "carbon fibre plastic) top; etc etc. The only semi descent- no tbad at all PC is the ThinkPad by Lenovo. Industrially used from tech to military industry, months in the field. But if you are a professional Mac user, the KB thing is a major headache, esp at 2,400-6,000$ So what you are missing is lifestyle. If yours has no issues while used to respond here, awesome.

If neither power used for research or actual productivity, on the go, then how would you understand people accustomed to 20 years of Mac reliability being suddenly dropped in a void? My former academic mentor did his PhD in the mid 90s on the Mac laptop at the time, the only reliable unit of his era. Served him years. In 2018, to have a 180 degree shift, that leave people stranded.

For most grad degrees you have a 30% grade paper per course every 2 WEEKS! A failing mac = GRAD DELAY. A failed Alienware once almost cost me a course. But on the go, the 'bulletproof' mac that is not fixable in most Asian or S American or African countries, no EN KB anway, messes with people's productivity and success. If that is 250,000 per year or 750,000, that is a lot and it is staggering vs what we grew up to expect from Apple.

And staying on top of R&D is what enabled me instantly to see the keynode in 2016 and forecast the KB issue.
[doublepost=1540256284][/doublepost]

I would have done the same as you had I not given my 2016 to my wife (which has so far worked flawlessly) and sold 2013 prior to buying 2018. The 2013 is long gone and I am not going to ask my wife to give me back the 2016, which I gave her to replace her now dead Mac.

So I gave it a good run with the 2018 MBP's and after the frustration and wasted time with the previous 3, I thought I would still give it one more shot. But in the end, despite #4 not having problems within the 14-day window, I returned it.
Now I say #4 had no problems, but it did oddly display 97% battery health at 2 cycles right out of the box. That did seem a bit odd that it would be down 3% health right out of the box with 2 cycles. But probably a minor issue.

I just decided I didn't trust it for the long haul. I just didn't feel like playing the waiting game to see if the keyboard was going to fail or if it was going to start to kernel panic or if it was going to have some other issue that was going to require sending it in for a new logic board and top case.

Macs have been my favorite laptops, but I will sit this round out. The 2016 should hopefully keep working for my wife since she uses an external keyboard almost exclusively.

There are quite a few months to 2 yr old maxed out 2015 models for sale, BUT THEY HOLD VALUE or went up due to high demand... Perhaps an overstock sale will get you a loaded 2015 unit? Check my answer above. went through 12,000$ worth of factory defective units to get the last two units...

 

[PickUrPoison]

BS. Utter BS. When I was corresponding with editors on what became Battery Gate, the deflection rebuttal is that "millions work." We demonstrated, and my Canadian colleague did so EMPIRICALLY, that it was an actual issue, software induced, deliberate throttling, for a PREDICTABLE EARLY BATTERY FAILURE. Initially some tracked our accounts and came within a hair's width of being banned for giving people the correct advice. My argument on the forums at the time was that the batteries were all defective for symptomatic users. People disagreeing wanted to prove that PHONES were all faulty. I knew the tech, controller technology, how the Li Ion travel in cycle from pole to pole..

Then, it all stopped. Apple came forth to admit to throttling, and instituted the recall. Again, the average battery lasts 1 year safely, maybe less if heat exposed e.g. beach. But Apple instituted a UNIVERSAL FREE BATTERY REPLACEMENT that was wildly successful.. I also got dozens of apologies that admitted having done everything to get my apple forum account yanked... But then again, i was working with tech insiders... But also had dozens more that had their issue resolved by getting their battery replaced in warranty. People could not believe that Li Ion batteries last, at best, ONE YEAR (my first one on 6S, 6 months). NO WAAY APPLE WOULD LET THIS. Samsung anyone???

SO MUCH FOR "MILLIONS THAT WORKED" Yes, the SE was relatively immune as its small 5 size had the highest native G resistance (thousands). Whereas any S or higher with a single fall could bend and return to size in fractions of a hundreds of a s. That battery just took a micro heart attack. On the SE, unaffected, no chance as it was a rock solid piece of metal.
Hick, and am sure you would agree, a 29$ battery replacement is NOT the same as a 700$ KB replacement with a design thickness concealing INHERENT FLAWS under Pro Usage above click and surf...

AppleInsider went to a lot of effort to gather actual data regarding the keyboard problem. That you’d rather ignore it and put forth your own anecdote-based speculation isn’t relevant to the facts.

 

[AppleHaterLover]

No need for TC apology as I only tried and returned the faulty one in 30 days. What you do not understand, starts with the question: HOW DO YOU USE YOURS? In the last three years my last two Macbooks saw the Iraqi desert, no issues, and other isolated placed where not an Apple Store was available within three neighbouring countries, NOR WOULD FEDEX deliver there. Continued graduate work, including learning new subjects. They work. You bump into an archaeologist doing digs or a Medecin Sans Frontieres that finishes his or her report on a Mac, THEY WORK. Not the new ones. Wait, USB keyboard- NEED A ADONGLE!

[doublepost=1540256284][/doublepost]

I'm a lawyer, which means I spend most of my days furiously typing away on my computer (s). When I'm not typing, I'm furiously arguing with people. Finally, when I'm not doing either of these things, I'm furiously typing on my Mac to argue with people on the internet.

I certainly can't pull the Iraqi desert or middle-of-nowhere Doctors Without Borders card but I'm sure Apple would be sensitive to such an issue if that was the case. My MacBook Pro (as did my previous MacBook Air) works perfectly in a urban environment and I can attest to that.

Anyway I don't think the MacBook Pro (or any Mac for that matter) is, or has been, the right mission-critical equipment if you need it to work perfectly all the time. There are dozens of rugged laptops - including ThinkPads - that would do that job better.

 

[Jinx Mac]

No no no no no do not replace the 2013 screen - unless a tearit expert finds a 200$ issue. Best to buy a fully loaded 2015 unit second hand from a source you trust, or a good distributor. Then take it to Apple Store and verify it works. Including adobe word pdfs all opened, 16 gb ram should give you no lag.. Other users traded their for a Mac; In my case, repeat fail during Apple Care and I always got a prorated upgrade, with full credit for the non working-unit BUT I never had a keyboard issue. If you can use a separate KB, may be an option to wait it out until 2 months before Apple Care expiruy.

that aside I am not touching anything with scissors or butterfly or any tiny arms..

I would love to do that. I found a "like new" 2015 MacBook Pro 13-inch RETINA/Early 2015/2.7 GHz Intel i5/8GB/256GB SSD/Like New condition 9.8/10 condition! Very tempted to pull that trigger. I am also interested to see what the eannouncement is on the 31st. If it is a new MBA am I dreaming to think that they will have addressed the keyboard?

 

[ROSC00]

AppleInsider went to a lot of effort to gather actual data regarding the keyboard problem. That you’d rather ignore it and put forth your own anecdote-based speculation isn’t relevant to the facts.

DATA means hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Last I knew, 2000/25 million units or 1/100 000th IS NOT even below a tenth of negligible statistic. Apple Insider NEVER CLAIMED to have data on the problem, you are strawmanning their argument. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Lack these, it is all conjecture. What is not is an entire science of industrial reliability and decay. Industrial rules and engineering benchmarks. When HDDs used to be 10% failure, I remember loosing 1-2 in 10 over a decade, 15 years. not 1 2 3 4th replacement. Everyone knew it was 10%. Some brands, as we recall ,were 40%. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Your Apple Insider, as a reference is not only a joke but nor does AI pretend to extrapolate as you do from 2000 units. But from 10% ops cost or 100-200 million alloted to RMA by Apple, and breakdown of repairs, that is ONE sample data- itself afflicted with limitations like USERS right above whom posted having the problem BUT NOT HAVING GONE IN to exchange. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed- AI never pretended to do so.

hence my 30% or higher estimate is not only sound, but way sounder than your using data that does not exist. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. THAT gives you data. Got a rebuttal to that? You keep anchoring yourself too much on the AI informal survey, which it what it is...

 

[PickUrPoison]

DATA means hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Last I knew, 2000/25 million units or 1/100 000th IS NOT even below a tenth of negligible statistic. Apple Insider NEVER CLAIMED to have data on the problem, you are strawmanning their argument. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Lack these, it is all conjecture. What is not is an entire science of industrial reliability and decay. Industrial rules and engineering benchmarks. When HDDs used to be 10% failure, I remember loosing 1-2 in 10 over a decade, 15 years. not 1 2 3 4th replacement. Everyone knew it was 10%. Some brands, as we recall ,were 40%. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. Your Apple Insider, as a reference is not only a joke but nor does AI pretend to extrapolate as you do from 2000 units. But from 10% ops cost or 100-200 million alloted to RMA by Apple, and breakdown of repairs, that is ONE sample data- itself afflicted with limitations like USERS right above whom posted having the problem BUT NOT HAVING GONE IN to exchange. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed- AI never pretended to do so.

hence my 30% or higher estimate is not only sound, but way sounder than your using data that does not exist. Hypothesis constructed, empirically validated AND peer to peer reviewed. THAT gives you data. Got a rebuttal to that? You keep anchoring yourself too much on the AI informal survey, which it what it is...

I’ll assign more weight to the data AppleInsider collected than the anecdotal evidence and speculation you’ve put forth.

But using your own methodology, if the failure rate is truly the 30% or higher you claim, it would be “statistically impossible” for @poorcody to buy 11 units and have no problems with any of them, after banging away on them for almost two years, right?

 

[ROSC00]

IT IS NOT DATA it is extrapolation of sample bias into "anecdotal evidence and speculation." My logic and forecast IS A COGENT argument and a probabilistic projection rooted in known industrial trends. Yours fails as pretends to access a verified quantitative output that came out of no hypothesis, no methodology and no further confirmation. Your reply is a joke, a good example on how to bog down critical thinking. poorcody? LOL, in which way is he a verified, reliable and credible source? My youtube video is more reliable AND verifiable than a random person's claim. Testimonies, INCLUDING YOUTUBE ARTICLES songs whatnot, ARE VERIFIABLE as original by credible authors.

Cassey Johnson? A RELIABLE and CREDIBLE source. poorcody is a blog name that is it. Unless he post a video with 11 MBPs side by side tested every key, it is a claim. Cassey Johnson has integrity as middle name, not the least due to her job... She is one of many that claim entire departments affected...

If you do not get the 30% probability assessment- which I have the cogency to not label as data, nor an established fact, is because it is a likelihood probability and you never touched statistics nor industrial technical sciences in your life. PERIOD. A realistic, verifiable claim as well..No scientific method training, qualitative or quantitative, so you cannot distinguish shades of grey.If you DISAGREE WITH THE 30% PROBABILITY, PROVE IT WRONG. lol. And if you do not get that 30% means 70% odds of NO failure 1st year, umm it is basic math? 100% -30% = 70%??

Same method helps quantify and forecast DNFs in F1 btw by calculating each of 6 PU parts engineering reliability and cycles. Can tell which team what odds of single or dual DNF at a specific track...

Your using the word 'data' would be akin me claiming the 2015 MBP line is garbage because I got three defective in a row, same factory. Apple Srs USA sent me another from a different batch, NO ISSUE. I never used that 3 figure to GENERALIZE no more than you could of SHOULD use the AI sub 3% (um 0.00008%) sample? lol

Now, people getting store or Apple shipped units, different batches, with the same exact issue, now this is a problem that goes well above your perception of what is data.

 

[PickUrPoison]

IT IS NOT DATA it is extrapolation of sample bias into "anecdotal evidence and speculation." My logic and forecast IS A COGENT argument and a probabilistic projection rooted in known industrial trends. Yours fails as pretends to access a verified quantitative output that came out of no hypothesis, no methodology and no further confirmation. Your reply is a joke, a good example on how to bog down critical thinking. poorcody? LOL, in which way is he a verified, reliable and credible source? My youtube video is more reliable AND verifiable than a random person's claim. Testimonies, INCLUDING YOUTUBE ARTICLES songs whatnot, ARE VERIFIABLE as original by credible authors.

Cassey Johnson? A RELIABLE and CREDIBLE source. poorcody is a blog name that is it. Unless he post a video with 11 MBPs side by side tested every key, it is a claim. Cassey Johnson has integrity as middle name, not the least due to her job... She is one of many that claim entire departments affected...

If you do not get the 30% probability assessment- which I have the cogency to not label as data, nor an established fact, is because it is a likelihood probability and you never touched statistics nor industrial technical sciences in your life. PERIOD. A realistic, verifiable claim as well..No scientific method training, qualitative or quantitative, so you cannot distinguish shades of grey.If you DISAGREE WITH THE 30% PROBABILITY, PROVE IT WRONG. lol. And if you do not get that 30% means 70% odds of NO failure 1st year, umm it is basic math? 100% -30% = 70%??

Same method helps quantify and forecast DNFs in F1 btw by calculating each of 6 PU parts engineering reliability and cycles. Can tell which team what odds of single or dual DNF at a specific track...

Your using the word 'data' would be akin me claiming the 2015 MBP line is garbage because I got three defective in a row, same factory. Apple Srs USA sent me another from a different batch, NO ISSUE. I never used that 3 figure to GENERALIZE no more than you could of SHOULD use the AI sub 3% (um 0.00008%) sample? lol

Now, people getting store or Apple shipped units, different batches, with the same exact issue, now this is a problem that goes well above your perception of what is data.

No matter how many times you restate the same anecdotes—and no matter how long your posts how many words you capitalize—the fact remains that you are simply guessing and speculating.

I have more confidence in the data AppleInsider has collected. Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[Leo90]

I think that there's a chance Apple produced certain batches of laptops that had keyboard problems showing up so fast. So far the fourth one I have is doing well, but I went for a slightly different model (as in €500 more expensive...). And the Apple ER person asked me to immediately get in touch if the keyboard starts acting out again. Which is nice. But I still have very little trust in this laptop now.

2015 rMBs were mentioned earlier – there were tens of threads about keyboard problems with those! I wish Apple would just admit those keyboards were a bad idea altogether, but you know, thin.

You complain about it and yet you give them even more money by buying a more expensive model? That makes absolutely no sense I am sorry. If those issues had happen so often to mine, I would have returned in a heartbeat and get a full refund. I love macOS and Apple products but a MacBook Pro should be never so unreliable, especially when they cost a fortune!

 

[ROSC00]

You complain about it and yet you give them even more money by buying a more expensive model? That makes absolutely no sense I am sorry. If those issues happen so often to mine, I would have returned in a heartbeat and get a full refund. I love macOS and Apple products but a MacBook Pro should be never so unreliable, especially when they cost a fortune!

No matter how muchyou pretent

No matter how many times you restate the same anecdotes—and no matter how long your posts how many words you capitalize—the fact remains that you are simply guessing and speculating.

I have more confidence in the data AppleInsider has collected. Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

No matter how much you pretend to know what happen, and use anecdotally the same irrelevant numbers to guess and extrapolate from an inexistant sample base some generalized conclusion, fact is this is the biggest flop in Apple recent hardware history. Fact is I can walk in any store grab one in three or four units, type and it has issues. Unless you are paid by Tim Cook to defend this multi hundred joke flop, you have NO COGENT ARGUMENTS and post as data AND facts things that, quantifiably, ARE NOT facts AND NOT studies. Apple Insider NEVER studied the problem. Informal journalistic efforts last I checked are not studies nor data generator. Without hypothesis construct, methodology, empirical evidence and quantified results that are peer to peer. CAPISCE? A 30%+ is a probabilistic number that has more logical cogency behind it, and as much as all those piled up lawsuits.

If Tim does not pay you as an apologist to defend anything, using inexistant AI science, WHICH YOU MISREPRESENT, your joke arguments do nothing to answer to those brining here real expensive issues that affect them. ZERO argument. I recommend a good book" Critical Thinking 101 from George State 101.
[doublepost=1540294305][/doublepost]

You complain about it and yet you give them even more money by buying a more expensive model? That makes absolutely no sense I am sorry. If those issues happen so often to mine, I would have returned in a heartbeat and get a full refund. I love macOS and Apple products but a MacBook Pro should be never so unreliable, especially when they cost a fortune!

Ben voyons many people bought these things and developed an issue weeks or months after a 30 day warranty. Not everyone has a 12 months Aussie consumer refund warranty Nor did everyone buy Apple Care.. Millions of people had no idea what was about to befell them after committing 2,400-6,000 $...

The chiclet design also had very rare issues- some people type without washing their hands after having chicken wings after all (seen it). BUTE EACH KEY COULD BE INDIVIDUALLY FIXED in any tech store from Djibouti to Moumbai, Buenos Aires to Ottawa, New York to Shanghai. That was chiclet. 30 s repair if needed. Not the butterjam design though, became Apple store only. Either way, I have never experienced a chiclet issue in 15 years, but seen key issues on post 2016 models that I tested or helped people with.

 

[Val-kyrie]

IF AppleInsider gets the data. You should check the CBC investigation report (available online) which proves that repairable issues are sold as "better to replace your Mac" by staffers. And fighting the right to repair.

Stats are not heuristics. AppleInsider's 2000 units sample is simply too small. How many times I called Apple Support and they shipped me a replacement unit bypassing the store? No amount of figures you provide, 1-10% does not produce the results you claim. It is not just Casey Johnson, but a legion of Apple users with multiple repeats. Now, Casey Johnson uses hers journalistically, so 500,000 typed words in 2-3 years is REASONABLE. Her getting 3 fails, and all others claiming 4- we are now talking with 30% FAIL RATE BECAUSE MATH SAY SO UNIVERSALLY. 25,000,000 units. 10% = one in a thousand odds. Multiple people reporting the same enters the astronomical level. ASSUME 30% or more AND THAT ASSUMPTION MAKES SENSE.

Second assumption that does not make sensE: USE. I walked in Apple store and found DAY OLD demos already not working. Some, like in the video link below, used as a LG 4k monitor, so it is not used for actual demo typing. Video says it all. Ok, if you assume 1/10 then that should have been the only one. i found 3 out of 8 2018 displayed units having the issue.

The 250,000 is a reasonable extrapolation. then you have to use the industrial failure rate and degradation. If 10% first year, Year 4 is usually usually x300% so 10% year one - 30% year 4. However, absent data and the fragility of the system, am not willing to venture such low figures, e.g. 30%.

But no matter what you believe, if users come complain that they get, with reasonable use, 3-4 replacement keyboards in months, the failure rate for that batch and usage type IS 30% or higher. Not what you think, sample or not. It is an industrial degradation and reliability benchmark. Same way NO ONE leaves a car lot with THREE LEMONS IN A ROW FOR THE EXACT SAME ISSUE. If SO, the entire batch was messed. Now, if only 10% of Macbook users actually type as I do or Casey Johnson, that is a different story. So we are now talking 0.3x 2,500.000= 750,000 units per year. But the 10% makes no sense, the assumption is not mathematically cogent to explain repeat failures in identical circumstances. Or me walking in Apple stores and finding new demos with unresponsive keys. What is the usage then? It resting on the table?

IF it was 10%, that is actually industrially acceptable (maybe not Apple and not legally for the price). 1 percent Apple would be laughing. At 30%, Apple institutes a massive recall. And, as I pointed out, even the low usage 12" unit has users reporting failures.

If 30% of users use the pro's solidly for school, then it is 2.25 million defective units/ year. Still a lot.

Anyway, video below. New, unused unit. Apple staffers pretended "We do not get it, it is never used!" lol. I do. Math is fun!

Great info