Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[ROSC00]

Finally, a verifiable claim! Next time do not twist words to sound witty. does not work. What would have impressed me is actual time spent to report how those 11 units are used and work.
[doublepost=1540339684][/doublepost]

Finally, a verifiable claim!

As you know, the AppleInsider data show the frequency of keyboard repairs for the 2017 model is rather close to the 2015 model, 8.2% vs 6.0%.

Interestingly, their latest data show no increased frequency of keyboard-related service requests after Apple announced the keyboard repair program. It seems there’s just not that many keyboards that need fixing.

Neither of the above facts support your speculation of 30+% failure rates.

As you know, the AppleInsider data show the frequency of keyboard repairs for the 2017 model is rather close to the 2015 model, 8.2% vs 6.0%.

Interestingly, their latest data show no increased frequency of keyboard-related service requests after Apple announced the keyboard repair program. It seems there’s just not that many keyboards that need fixing.

Neither of the above facts support your speculation of 30+% failure rates.

The first thing that cued me into the problem was the use of scissor mechanism in such a thin format. As you know, HDPE and LDPE plastics have a softening point of 39C. You might not be surprised that what this means that with heating processor, HDPE materials nearby soften, then harden soften and harden and change properties with cycles. That corresponds to specific failures of clusters above processor, E to I keys and forming a V going to the spacebar. temp is 43C on the 15". In my opinion this, plus typing, can be an equal or higher factor than just random dust as explanation.

 

[puma1552]

so to summarize, the verdcit seems to be that generation freaking three is still garbage?

 

[ROSC00]

YES. If you intend to travel and use it, actually type for hours, let it in the car any summer day and accidentally overheat it, by a beach or near the hotel balcony overlooking the beach, at home after supper, on plane before or after the plane meal or snack, if something falls on it, then versions 1 through 3 are the most severe garbage and letdown in modern keyboard history. Cannot find a historic parallel to such a fiasco, when was a keyboard so controversial, poorly conceived, and unrepairable except in an Apple store. On the other hand if you dock the station to use an USB KB, or to watch Netflix only, it does not matter. Typing seems to ruin keys; heat ruins keys, dust ruins keys. Never seen this in my computing life, and have had my share of spills/flip over survivor keyboards... The root problem is that uber thin skeleton of tiny scissor plastics that decide to not scissor at some point. Chiclet was easy- pressure on the key results in one central pin response. If a key cap failed, it was replaceable. Scissor, however, requires the perfect harmony of those uber thin tiny feet working in concert flawlessly each time, a scheleton that never deforms, never a spec interferes with their mechanism. Even in the real scissor world, japanese scissors last three lifetimes and cost a bit but are a simple product consisting of two crafted metal parts and a pin. So is the walmart scissors, cost a dollar and last until a kid touches them. Cheap material. This butterjam plastic mechanism is the walmart equivalent. Designed with software, simulated with software, tested in 2-3 units only in labs (so no industrial leaks) then failed in actual usage..

It was just a massive design flop, as had it been properly tested, it would have never been released. each time Apple touted it as a perfect, groundbreaking simplicity and effortless input, and that perfection is on version 3. Mechanical and membrane have not changed in decades for a reason: they just work.

 

[puma1552]

YES. If you intend to travel and use it, actually type for hours, let it in the car any summer day, by a beach, at home after supper, on plane before or after the plane meal or snack, if you drop of something falling on it, then versions 1 through 3 are the most severe garbage and letdown in modern keyboard history. Cannot find a historic parallel to such a fiasco, when was a keyboard so controversial, poorly conceived, and unrepairable except in an Apple store. On the other hand if you dock the station to use an USB KB, or to watch Netflix only, it does not matter. Typing seems to ruin keys; heat ruins keys, dust ruins keys. Never seen this in my computing life, and have had my share of spills/flip over survivor keyboards..

This is REALLY disappointing. My RAM/SSD upgraded mid-2010 has 1000 battery cycles and as of a few days ago the startup disk is now full and I refuse to spend another penny on it or an external drive and have no interest in cloud storage. I've been waiting for new Macbooks next week with the gen 3, or a current MBP but this sucks so bad - I've wanted a new machine for so long but it's now been 2-2.5 years of unacceptable keyboards. WTF Apple, get it together for real.

 

[FlushedNotRushed]

so to summarize, the verdcit seems to be that generation freaking three is still garbage?

And if that’s the case,’would it be better to buy a 2017 15” versus a 2018 13” (Both quad core, both 16GB) ? This is because the 2017 won’t have the thermal throttling like the 2018 as well as LP / BridgeOS? The only thing setting the 2017 off is it’s KB issues, but if they still persist in 2018, I don’t see anything wrong with buying the 2017

 

[537635]

Plus 2017 comes with a 4 year warranty.

Still... if buying a new machine, honestly,
none of these is a good choice. Just bad choices and very bad choices.

 

[FlushedNotRushed]

Plus 2017 comes with a 4 year warranty.

Still... if buying a new machine, honestly,
none of these is a good choice. Just bad choices and very bad choices.

Was looking to buy due to Apple's high resale value. I was planning to upgrade to the 2017 15" (or 2018 13" but the 2018 T2 chip is causing issues) and sell in 2020 and upgrade to the new redesign MBP. I've heard people can sell these machines and only lose +/- $500 (this of course depends on model).

Thank you for the reply.

 

[537635]

New laptops have abysmal resale value compared to older models exactly because of the keyboards.

 

[FlushedNotRushed]

New laptops have abysmal resale value compared to older models exactly because of the keyboards.

So if I'm understanding correctly, >2016 are the MBP's that keep the resale value, but <2016 is when the resale value is iffy. I heard that the 2016+ keep the resale value as long as it still has the warranty to replace the KB. I plan to buy AppleCare+ for both devices and plan to sell in 2020. But I understand what you mean.

 

[Queen6]

YES. If you intend to travel and use it, actually type for hours, let it in the car any summer day and accidentally overheat it, by a beach or near the hotel balcony overlooking the beach, at home after supper, on plane before or after the plane meal or snack, if something falls on it, then versions 1 through 3 are the most severe garbage and letdown in modern keyboard history. Cannot find a historic parallel to such a fiasco, when was a keyboard so controversial, poorly conceived, and unrepairable except in an Apple store. On the other hand if you dock the station to use an USB KB, or to watch Netflix only, it does not matter. Typing seems to ruin keys; heat ruins keys, dust ruins keys. Never seen this in my computing life, and have had my share of spills/flip over survivor keyboards... The root problem is that uber thin skeleton of tiny scissor plastics that decide to not scissor at some point. Chiclet was easy- pressure on the key results in one central pin response. If a key cap failed, it was replaceable. Scissor, however, requires the perfect harmony of those uber thin tiny feet working in concert flawlessly each time, a scheleton that never deforms, never a spec interferes with their mechanism. Even in the real scissor world, japanese scissors last three lifetimes and cost a bit but are a simple product consisting of two crafted metal parts and a pin. So is the walmart scissors, cost a dollar and last until a kid touches them. Cheap material. This butterjam plastic mechanism is the walmart equivalent. Designed with software, simulated with software, tested in 2-3 units only in labs (so no industrial leaks) then failed in actual usage..

It was just a massive design flop, as had it been properly tested, it would have never been released. each time Apple touted it as a perfect, groundbreaking simplicity and effortless input, and that perfection is on version 3. Mechanical and membrane have not changed in decades for a reason: they just work.

Apple should put it's corporate arrogance aside and start designing computers that are meant to be actually used, not just lovingly looked at, the amount of issues the current MBP has is simply ridiculous...

Q-6

 

[Roadstar]

Apple should put it's corporate arrogance aside and start designing computers that are meant to be actually used, not just lovingly looked at, the amount of issues the current MBP has is simply ridiculous...

Q-6

Maybe someone should get Ive a decent razor blade so he doesn’t need to try to make the MBP suitable for shaving.

 

[537635]

I heard that the 2016+ keep the resale value as long as it still has the warranty to replace the KB.

I don't buy that. My 2016 Pro was in and out of service for about 3 months since December 2016. These computers are portable workstations, desktop replacements and more often than not the only computer someone has.

If I was buying now, the premise of having a device which may fail at any time and needs a lenghty repair process, albeit free of charge - would be unacceptable.

Until Apple completely redesigns the keyboard, all their laptop computers are - DO NOT BUY.

 

[navaira]

Typing seems to ruin keys; heat ruins keys, dust ruins keys. Never seen this in my computing life, and have had my share of spills/flip over survivor keyboards...

This might be the scariest part indeed! I realised I'm actually TRYING to type carefully (how does one even do that?). I've been avoiding dust since I got the retina Macbook, so that's not a problem, but now I flip out if I see a speck between two keys. I get nervous when I run Photoshop and use more than two layers, or when I render a teeny weeny video clip in Premiere. "Is it too hot? Am I ruining the keys? Should I bump up the fans?"

I would probably end up buying a surviving 2017 Air, but that screen coupled with their prices... and of course, in six days all Apple mobile computers will be equipped with the greatest and revolutionariest butterfly keyboards ever made by Apple. Yes, I type a lot. Don't know, let's be brave and say I type 12 hours a day for 10 days (not true, but to round it up). So that's 120 hours before the first failure. How is a computer like this supposed to hold for longer than a year unless it's always in clamshell mode with an external keyboard?

I was thinking I never broke a keyboard in my life, but you reminded me that's not true. I broke two. Both by spilling red wine inside. (Lesson learned: I haven't touched red wine for years ) And even then most keys worked. I have a white plastic Macbook from – oops, double space, deleting – 2006, it never had a failure of any sort. It also won't connect to wifi anymore because its Airport card is incompatible with modern wireless networks (I suppose I could try it with a USB dongle...). But it works.

I wonder if I could put an SSD in it and make it my main machine...

 

[fokmik]

This is the best keyboard experience in my entire life
Yes, its my first keyboard
The precision of the key, the light that comes from it, the feeling its beautiful. Its clear this is not meant for gamers that crush keyboards out of anger
Perfection in the body of a laptop

 

[ROSC00]

This is REALLY disappointing. My RAM/SSD upgraded mid-2010 has 1000 battery cycles and as of a few days ago the startup disk is now full and I refuse to spend another penny on it or an external drive and have no interest in cloud storage. I've been waiting for new Macbooks next week with the gen 3, or a current MBP but this sucks so bad - I've wanted a new machine for so long but it's now been 2-2.5 years of unacceptable keyboards. WTF Apple, get it together for real.

If you had 128 Gb I would upgrade- there are also lots of actual Macbooks SSDs out there and stand alone stations. I understand though the reluctance to spend anything more on an 8 yr old computer. My next need includes a 512 SSD and nothing lower than 16Gb latest RAM. That makes the machines we want worth 2,400$ and higher. The more this drags (waiting for the Oct announcement) the more it may force me to buy a PC OR wait until the CES upgrades April 2019.....

To bad they removed the 2015 model a few months ago. The 15" Pro was a jewel, minus the old processor and older RAM speed. But to give you an idea how good, second hand prices shot up right after Apple pulled them from its webpage a few months ago. Some people were asking 2,000$ for a 2 yr old machine...

 

[SDColorado]

This might be the scariest part indeed! I realised I'm actually TRYING to type carefully (how does one even do that?)

In a similar way to how one becomes paranoid about how they clean the display ever since stain gate and goes about wiping down their screen as though it is a priceless piece of art, rather than a part of a tool. But that is where we are at with the new Apple laptops.

Yes, its my first keyboard

Not a large body of experience then

The precision of the key, the light that comes from it, the feeling its beautiful. Its clear this is not meant for gamers that crush keyboards out of anger

The precise moment it fails, the lengthy repair when it does. It is clear that it isn't meant to be used for much of anything other than watching the light radiating from it. ​

 

[maxgts]

This is REALLY disappointing. My RAM/SSD upgraded mid-2010 has 1000 battery cycles and as of a few days ago the startup disk is now full and I refuse to spend another penny on it or an external drive and have no interest in cloud storage. I've been waiting for new Macbooks next week with the gen 3, or a current MBP but this sucks so bad - I've wanted a new machine for so long but it's now been 2-2.5 years of unacceptable keyboards. WTF Apple, get it together for real.

Do what I did. Gave my mid-2012 MBP to my kid for school work and found an early-2015 MBP 13" in pristine condition on eBay. 2015 is as far as I go with Apple unless Tim "The Crook" Cook and Jony "Insane" Ive come to their arrogant senses.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Plus 2017 comes with a 4 year warranty.

Still... if buying a new machine, honestly,
none of these is a good choice. Just bad choices and very bad choices.

They do not come with a 4 year "warranty". They come with a 4 year repair program specifically for the keyboard. While a warranty might cover failure of the laptop, the repair program will only target to repair the part it is targeted to; in this case, it is the keyboard. So in case you end up buying the 2017, AppleCare is necessary.

 

[navaira]

This is the best keyboard experience in my entire life
Yes, its my first keyboard
The precision of the key, the light that comes from it, the feeling its beautiful. Its clear this is not meant for gamers that crush keyboards out of anger
Perfection in the body of a laptop

It's the best keyboard experience I ever had as well. For the first 10 days before the first key starts malfunctioning. It feels, sounds, looks wonderful.

The only game I played on this laptop was...oh. I never played any game onthis laptop. Maybe I'm just holding it wrong?

(The missing space left uncorrected intentionally. Apparently the space bar no longer just registers twice.)

 

[SDColorado]

It's the best keyboard experience I ever had as well. For the first 10 days before the first key starts malfunctioning. It feels, sounds, looks wonderful.

The only game I played on this laptop was...oh. I never played any game onthis laptop. Maybe I'm just holding it wrong?

(The missing space left uncorrected intentionally. Apparently the space bar no longer just registers twice.)

Your typing wrong

Did you actually feel it was the best experience you ever had on a keyboard though? I used to love Apple keyboards, but these butterfail keyboards I have never liked. I don't like the travel, the pitch, the sound... but everyone has their preferences for sure

 

[navaira]

The 3rd generation really makes a difference when it comes to how the keys feel and sound. I fell in love with the butterfly keyboard's *feel* when I got the 20116 rMB, and this is really much better...

That double 1 is not my typo. AAAHHHHH!!!!!

I wonder whether the fact all models of Matebook X Pro, X1 Carbon, and Dell 13 9370 are sold out at the moment means an imminent Whiskey Lake refresh?

 

[SDColorado]

The 3rd generation really makes a difference when it comes to how the keys feel and sound. I fell in love with the butterfly keyboard's *feel* when I got the 20116 rMB, and this is really much better...

That double 1 is not my typo. AAAHHHHH!!!!!

I wonder whether the fact all models of Matebook X Pro, X1 Carbon, and Dell 13 9370 are sold out at the moment means an imminent Whiskey Lake refresh?

In my own experience with going from a 2016 rMBP to the 2018 models, I agree that the gen. 3 sounds better. But that is the only improvement I have personally found with them. They don't really have any different feel to me. I feel that they are otherwise unchanged. A cheap feeling, plasticky, clicky keyboard with minimal travel and poor pitch and generally a compromise for a thinner design. It is just one opinion of course.

I am also beginning to wonder if the gen. 3 isn't the most unreliable of them all. That perhaps the silicone barrier is actually more hindrance than a help. I guess time will tell on that.

Where are you seeing the Dell 13 9370 and X1 Carbon sold out? Both are available locally to me, with the exception of the X1 Carbon 256GB model. Lenovo shows most of the X1 Carbon models available for same day shipping.

Only the Matebook X Pro is sold out locally. Matebook D is available, but not the X Pro. Perhaps an impending update to that model? Or a supply chain issue? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[537635]

They do not come with a 4 year "warranty". They come with a 4 year repair program specifically for the keyboard. While a warranty might cover failure of the laptop, the repair program will only target to repair the part it is targeted to; in this case, it is the keyboard. So in case you end up buying the 2017, AppleCare is necessary.

Well pretty much nothing else will fail on these laptops in general as it seems. Just the keyboard. "Just."

And with every keyboard you get the new topcase, battery, trackpad, speakers...

 

[FlushedNotRushed]

Well pretty much nothing else will fail on these laptops in general as it seems. Just the keyboard. "Just."

And with every keyboard you get the new topcase, battery, trackpad, speakers...

Say if you were going to go half-half with a family member and have 3 months left to take advantage of Apple's EDU pricing. Would you buy the 2017 15" quad-core i7 16GB 560X 256GB for ($2000, I'll be spending $1000), 2018 13" quad-core i5 16GB 256GB ($1900), or 2018 15" 6-core i7 16GB 555X ($2200) .

I'm a software engineer and screen size / portability for the 15" is fine with me. When I'm at home, I usually connect my MBP to an external monitor. I'm currently using a 1920x1080 gaming monitor but looking to upgrade to a 4k Ultradewide in the near future. I'm going to start getting into photo editing / maybe video editing in the near future as well, so having dGPU would be nice but isn't necessarily needed.

I plan to sell which ever MBP i get in 2020-2021 to get the new model.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Well pretty much nothing else will fail on these laptops in general as it seems. Just the keyboard. "Just."

And with every keyboard you get the new topcase, battery, trackpad, speakers...

Nah. Some members here have repaired their laptops for blown out speakers, video issues etc.