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https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8536157?page=1

I am looking to buy a laptop for the first time since I'll need it for my work next year. I am having an imac mid 2010, and have been os x user only for all these years. I have hard time believing it, but I have to switch to pc for many serious reasons. Mostly though, the greedy pricing (I live in Europe) and this unforgivable keyboard issues. I can not even imagine paying nearly 2000 euros for a machine (13inch, i5, 256gb, 8gb ram) and worrying my keyboard can let me down anytime soon!

I love macos so much but I have to switch to windows/linux for my Data Analytics work. Shame on you Apple. Shame on you. :(

I think your responsibility [...] starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. [...] I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better. – Jony Ive NOT talking about butterfly keyboards
someone's signature here
 
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8536157?page=1

I am looking to buy a laptop for the first time since I'll need it for my work next year. I am having an imac mid 2010, and have been os x user only for all these years. I have hard time believing it, but I have to switch to pc for many serious reasons. Mostly though, the greedy pricing (I live in Europe) and this unforgivable keyboard issues. I can not even imagine paying nearly 2000 euros for a machine (13inch, i5, 256gb, 8gb ram) and worrying my keyboard can let me down anytime soon!

I love macos so much but I have to switch to windows/linux for my Data Analytics work. Shame on you Apple. Shame on you. :(


someone's signature here

What data analytics work are you doing that requires windows?

I run ML in R and Python and they all work on macs. Is your company providing you with a windows machine? If so, that sucks. We had thinkpads but our analytics team was able to get macbook pros.
 
So I've now owned all three generations of keyboards:

1st gen - 2016 MacBook Pro and 2016 12" MacBook. Oddly these felt a bit different! I think I preferred the one on my 2016 MacBook Pro, maybe cause I used that one more? Eventually, I "proactively" had it replaced when that model had a battery recall, so Apple replaced the entire top case which included a new keyboard.

2nd gen - 2017 12" MacBook and "replaced" 2016 MacBook Pro. Decent for both, but nothing special.

3rd gen - 2018 13" MacBook Pro - ahhhh Goldilocks! I do like this one :) Seems like they have a bit more travel and bottom-out much softer. Not as springy as the keys on the iPads' Smart Keyboards, but they feel more comfortable to me than either the 1st or 2nd gen.
 
So I've now owned all three generations of keyboards:

1st gen - 2016 MacBook Pro and 2016 12" MacBook. Oddly these felt a bit different! I think I preferred the one on my 2016 MacBook Pro, maybe cause I used that one more? Eventually, I "proactively" had it replaced when that model had a battery recall, so Apple replaced the entire top case which included a new keyboard.

2nd gen - 2017 12" MacBook and "replaced" 2016 MacBook Pro. Decent for both, but nothing special.

3rd gen - 2018 13" MacBook Pro - ahhhh Goldilocks! I do like this one :) Seems like they have a bit more travel and bottom-out much softer. Not as springy as the keys on the iPads' Smart Keyboards, but they feel more comfortable to me than either the 1st or 2nd gen.

I have also owned all three, and agree with your basic assessment. I will be selling my 2015 rMBP in part because I've come to prefer the new keyboards, which is actually a big surprise to me...
 
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https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8536157?page=1

I am looking to buy a laptop for the first time since I'll need it for my work next year. I am having an imac mid 2010, and have been os x user only for all these years. I have hard time believing it, but I have to switch to pc for many serious reasons. Mostly though, the greedy pricing (I live in Europe) and this unforgivable keyboard issues. I can not even imagine paying nearly 2000 euros for a machine (13inch, i5, 256gb, 8gb ram) and worrying my keyboard can let me down anytime soon!

I love macos so much but I have to switch to windows/linux for my Data Analytics work. Shame on you Apple. Shame on you. :(


someone's signature here

Buy 2017 Mac Book Air i7 8GB 256 or 512GB SSD and you will have enough power for the next years...
 
What data analytics work are you doing that requires windows?

I run ML in R and Python and they all work on macs. Is your company providing you with a windows machine? If so, that sucks. We had thinkpads but our analytics team was able to get macbook pros.

You should say your ML works slowly on the Mac. The lack of Nvidia GPUs is a killer for getting Deep Learning ML done in a reasonable time. Several clients I have only use PCs because they support Nvidia GPUs. These customers run either Windows or Linux distros.
 
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You should say your ML works slowly on the Mac. The lack of Nvidia GPUs is a killer for getting Deep Learning ML done in a reasonable time. Several clients I have only use PCs because they support Nvidia GPUs. These customers run either Windows or Linux distros.

NVIDIA is the preferred solution in some
ML, though isn’t it the case that no one can do any real ML on a laptop, to the point it doesn’t really matter what dGPU you have? You’d need either a beefy desktop or, what a lot of people seem to do, is use cloud/remote ML services.
 
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You should say your ML works slowly on the Mac. The lack of Nvidia GPUs is a killer for getting Deep Learning ML done in a reasonable time. Several clients I have only use PCs because they support Nvidia GPUs. These customers run either Windows or Linux distros.
This.
NVIDIA is the preferred solution in some
ML, though isn’t it the case that no one can do any real ML on a laptop, to the point it doesn’t really matter what dGPU you have? You’d need either a beefy desktop or, what a lot of people seem to do, is use cloud/remote ML services.

ML works on any platform, and that's only one part of being a data analyst/scientist, unless you're a machine learning engineer. Nobody who is serious about doing ML does it on a laptop. I was only asking for reasons why he/she isn't able to use a Mac environment for data analytics.
 
So I've now owned all three generations of keyboards:

1st gen - 2016 MacBook Pro and 2016 12" MacBook. Oddly these felt a bit different! I think I preferred the one on my 2016 MacBook Pro, maybe cause I used that one more? Eventually, I "proactively" had it replaced when that model had a battery recall, so Apple replaced the entire top case which included a new keyboard.

2nd gen - 2017 12" MacBook and "replaced" 2016 MacBook Pro. Decent for both, but nothing special.

3rd gen - 2018 13" MacBook Pro - ahhhh Goldilocks! I do like this one :) Seems like they have a bit more travel and bottom-out much softer. Not as springy as the keys on the iPads' Smart Keyboards, but they feel more comfortable to me than either the 1st or 2nd gen.

What's the model number of your 3rd gen. 13" MBPro?
 
Yes, please let us know.

I can already see why some reviews including notebookcheck.net got bad battery results - when I got it initially, the package power draw was very high - notebookcheck had it at 17W on idle on average which is quite ridiculous. I currently have it on less than 2W idle after some minor tweaks to software/services start up (thanks Windows...), these tweaks did not limit performance. On idle using just the "Better battery" setting, 40% brightness and keeping the refresh rate at 144hz, Window's is displaying ~11.5 hours of battery life. So for light productivity, I think you can get at least 6-8 hours without trouble, but you could extend the battery further by using "Battery saver" and switching refresh rate to 60hz.

Next step was to lower temps, this isn't a Razer issue but the i7-8750H issue, I wouldn't be surprsied if many MBP 15 users report that it gets hot and loud quite easily. I undervolted by -125v CPU/Core and -50v Intel GPU. Now the laptop ide's in the 30's (degree's C).

Initial impressions is that this laptop in looks/feel is ahead of the MBP 15 which I didn't think a laptop could do. One thing I don't know if many people noticed (you'll notice it on review video's) is that the hinge on the MBP 15 is a bit too loose for my liking, just general typing has the display lid wobble quite a lot. Both machines are solid but the Razer has less flex if you were to apply pressure. The bottom of the MBP 15 is definitely more sleeker though, where as the Razer has all that intake fan vents and feet to raise it. Razer is however upgradable, with the RAM, SSD, Wifi card and battery user servicable.

As others have mentioned, the lack of backlighting the function keys are a bit annoying, especially as the back lighting is definitely the best looking - and you may have to get used to the weird arrow placement (I don't use right shift, but I am continually pressing right FN instead of the right arrow, as I need to do CTRL+right to use as "End"). The Touchpad is MacBook quality and the only issues I faced are some palm rejection on it, though I also experienced that on the MBP's. It is more that Safari is so much better than Edge/Chrome with gestures, rather than the MBP having a better touchpad. The keyboard feels nicer to type than the MBP 15 I guess, but the main advantage is that they won't die like butterfly key's.

The screens are, different. One is a glossy high res P3 500nit screen, while the other is a 1080p 144hz low response matte 300 nit screen. I prefer matte and in some ways, this negates the fact the screen does not get as bright. As for high res vs 144hz, I didn't realise how nice 144hz can look just for normal UI for productivity, even if you're not gaming. On balance, the screen is probably better on the MBP 15 overall, but the Razer one is definitely of high quality. Razer does also do a 4K screen which could probably better compare to those who do graphical/content design.

Both have their pro's and con's. The biggest advantage of macOS is that it just works straight out of the box. Window's, you need to do a bit of work on it at the start to get it "optimised" but it might be worth it in the end, depending on your workflow etc.

I'll play around with it for another week and see if I want to invest in a MBP 15 instead.
 
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Me too, went with a Surface Book instead of the butterfly Air or the overpriced mini :)

The butterfly Air. Adding the butterfly keyboard to the Air was Apples means of putting the air back into the Air :)

987a61f0dc28fd1156a4335677978b7d.jpg
 
ML works on any platform, and that's only one part of being a data analyst/scientist, unless you're a machine learning engineer. Nobody who is serious about doing ML does it on a laptop. I was only asking for reasons why he/she isn't able to use a Mac environment for data analytics.

I know plenty of companies in Silicon Valley whose engineers use Windows/Ubuntu laptops with Nvidia 1060 or better cards to develop their models. These system are relatively cheap and powerful at the matrix math that is the heart of training a NN. They are a great platforms for working with your data, and seeing how well the model works before incurring charges (or wrath of co-workers for tying it up) on the large cluster servers. They often also have a MBP Pro, but only use it for word processing mail, etc.

And FWIW, ML is creeping into all sorts of area. I know biologists that are using it to create model predict migration patterns and identify members of herds, doctors that are creating models to reduce their workload in reading test results, and marketing types that are creating models to identify trends faster from social media feeds.
 
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I’m leaning towards the surface book 3 when it comes out and the Lenovo X-1 extreme, to do my part in ridding myself of apples inflated prices and keyboard issues. Of course the surface book 3 will cost a lot to but not like the MacBook Pro 15 inch.
 
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I can already see why some reviews including notebookcheck.net got bad battery results - when I got it initially, the package power draw was very high - notebookcheck had it at 17W on idle on average which is quite ridiculous.

I know next to nothing about Windows, but I wonder if that initial power consumption is anything like what a new Mac does where it's still indexing files for search and syncing things like email accounts and whatnot. Every new Mac install I've ever done spends a couple days being abnormally active before settling down.
 
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I was only asking for reasons why he/she isn't able to use a Mac environment for data analytics.

Hey Jerz, as you can understand reading my post above, the biggest issue that makes me think switching to pc side is the hardware issues that macbook have been suffering the last 3 years. (also the really bad-greedy service policies aka you need ~$500 for a new keyboard or something cause our company made it impossible being able to replace some keys, I don't live on USA and my country doesn't have official Apple Stores, I CAN"T pay almost 2000 euros for a machine and worrying back in mind all the time about a keyboard that can let me down anytime etc etc)

I LOVE macos and I can do everything here, but for some of the reasons I wrote above and some more, I really consider changing side. It's not that I want to. So, it's not that there is something I can't do on a mac environment. I wish Windows was based on unix too and I could have terminal there but anyway.

btw I am not a professional yet as you and other here.

@interessiert oh, about your suggestion buying the old macbook air, I can not even consider that. I would feel a sheep paying 1.467,81 euros for a 5th generation i7, 8GB ram, 256GB ssd while there are some amazing, and these days really close to apple's quality, laptops on the market. Check Matebook x Pro <3, Mi Notebook Pro (the most value for money laptop atm), XPS etc. So yeah... there is no single chance I will choose the old Air just to stay on the Apple's ecosystem.
 
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I hope all of you know that the fact @Queen6 and I switched to Windows is the sole reason for Apple's stock dropping by over 20%. We're teaching Tim Cook a lesson here!

MSFT market cap just overtook APPL, well done guys, but I fear that it would take someone with guts to bring Apple back to it's core values. There is one thing that both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs understood really well ... when you invest in "Outstanding people", "Great Partners", "Professionals" etc. the return you will get is going to be way beyond what any company can deliver. Tim Cook and Co. decided to concentrate on short term profit margin and designer looks, while abandoning professional market completely, be it Mac Pro, hardware with normal keyboard and common ports at reasonable price et. The question is , what are they going to do next ...
 
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MSFT market cap just overtook APPL, well done guys, but I fear that it would take someone with guts to bring Apple back to it's core values. There is one thing that both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs understood really well ... when you invest in "Outstanding people", "Great Partners", "Professionals" etc. the return you will get is going to be way beyond what any company can deliver. Tim Cook and Co. decided to concentrate on short term profit margin and designer looks, while abandoning professional market completely, be it Mac Pro, hardware with normal keyboard and common ports at reasonable price et. The question is , what are they going to do next ...

The new MacBook Air shows how Apple is now, aka ran by accountants.

Bring a magical product? Hell no. Take two year old MBP, take off touch strip, add a wedge, but reduce screen quality, speaker quality and even fit in a cheaper weak CPU and say it’s for battery reasons. We present you the MBP 13 TB XR version, aka stripped down.

What could they have done? Actually innovated in those two years to at the very least keep if not improve the screen, sound, better form factor (not a MBP copy with a edgy and a higher thickness at one end) while maintaining high battery life. But nope, it was merely a hack job. Zero innovation, expect this kind of corner cutting from Acer, not Apple.

If they wanted to release this as the new Air, it should have come in 2016.
 
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