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Gen 3 butterfly keyboard
- Thread starter Lastgreen
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They’ve instituted an extended repair program, the first page of the notice acknowledges several different problems some users have encountered with gen1/gen2 butterfly keyboards:
- Letters or characters repeat unexpectedly
- Letters or characters do not appear
- Key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner
https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/
Yeah, that's not an admission of any reliability issues, that is just Apple's way of being "customer focussed" for the "very small" number of people that have been or may be affected.
You can put whatever anti-Apple spin you want on it, but it doesn’t change the facts.
Clearly, Apple knows there’s a problem. They put in place an extended repair program for all those who have been affected by the issue, or may be affected in the future, as you state.
Apple acknowledges several problems that may occur with the gen 1/gen 2 keyboards: letters or characters repeat unexpectedly; letters or characters do not appear; and key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner. Thats a pretty clear admission of reliability issues.
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I never said that.
Apple has suggested that "a small number of keyboards may exhibit...", that is simply saying there are issues in a limited number of cases.
You said:
That is not the case, admitting there is a reliability issue suggests the whole range of products with gen 1/2 keyboards are faulty. Apple will not ever admit that, and they have not.
Point in fact, in relation to the gen 3 keyboard, they have stated that the membrane on the keys is about noise reduction, nothing to do with "improving reliability". Now that is unlikely but again, they won't admit there is a reliability issue.
Sorry, I mistook you for another poster and have edited my post.
Yes, there are a limited number of cases. According to AppleInsider data, failure rates for the gen 1 are around 12% and gen 2 are about 8%. 2015 are around 6%.
Apple has admitted exactly that, and thus the repair program covers the entire range of products with gen 1/gen 2 keyboards:
- MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, Early 2015)
- MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, Early 2016)
- MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, 2017)
- MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports)
- MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2017, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports)
- MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports)
- MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2017, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports)
- MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2016)
- MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2017)
But they have admitted a reliability issue. Keyboards that are reliable don’t need repair programs. Apple has clearly stated the ways the keyboard can be unreliable: letters or characters repeat unexpectedly; letters or characters do not appear; and key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner.
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well. that's not good
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/15/third-gen-keyboard-exclusive-to-2018-macbook-pro/
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/15/third-gen-keyboard-exclusive-to-2018-macbook-pro/
Not really sure what you're trying to get at here.
If they are mass producing 3rd gen keyboards, which may be interchangeable with 2nd gen keyboards and they are no longer producing 2nd gen at all... then it leads to a logical conclusion then when you send in a repair for the 2nd gen that warrants a full replacement, they will install the 3rd gen.
This is obviously an oversimplification as I do not have knowledge of Apple's supply chain or manufacturing, but it's a sound argument.
Either the 3rd gen isn't compatible with older models, or there is both enough stock of 2nd gen keyboards, and a low enough failure rate that they won't have a huge amount of repairs that keep coming back. If the 3rd gen is indeed compatible with older models, I imagine they'll eventually use those for repairs but only when they run out of stock of 2nd gen.
I’ve followed this issue for years, at this point, closely on this forum as well as other sites.
I had a particularly vested interest overall as I purchased 2 12” MacBooks in 2015, each of which I returned within 2 days due to out-of-box keyboard issues.
The 2016 MacBook Pro launched, and I sat out a year solely because the forum quickly filled up with keyboard complaints. I pulled the trigger quickly after they launched the 2017 Macbook Pros. Same goes with the 12” Macbook; I purchased the 2016 iteration in hopes the “kinks” had been worked out. Now both my machines are on Apple’s repair program list.
I haven’t had issues with my MBP whatsoever. From what I read, there were subtle changes made between 2016 and 2017. My 12” Macbook has exhibited sticky keys from time to time but they’ve more or less gone away with time. I have family and friends who have had issues, particularly with the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard.
Can’t say I’m incredibly upset about this whole ordeal, but I can say it does take away from Apple as the “gold standard” of notebooks. I’m often the techie which friends and family refer to for purchasing decisions. I’ve had to explain this keyboard issue in detail to each of them, not to steer them away, but to give them the facts I’m aware of. Can’t say this was the case in the MacBook Air days.
I think it says something about Apple that a patent was filed in 2016, yet 2017 models are on the repair program list. I also think they’ve most definitely fixed the issue in the 2018 models, yet the fact they won’t admit it to TheVerge and other publications is pretty shameful. I understand the complexities due to ongoing lawsuits, but still, it’s less than classy for the world’s most valuable tech company.
I’ve been about as hesistant to admit it as anyone, but Apple is clearly on a downward slope, not an upward one. They were the gold standard for so many years in regards to smartphones, tablets, and laptops. While I still believe their tablet lead clearly exists, I think smartphones and more notably notebooks have truly become a conversation. Personally I love MacOS too much to switch, but the grass looks greener on the other side in many regards.
Here’s to hoping Apple turns this debacle around in their future Macbook iterations. Add me to the list of people who have lost faith in Tim Cook. They’ve become a more valuable company under his reign, but their legendary reputation of ‘customer first’ is pretty much put to rest, at this point. I think most loyalists on the forum would certainly agree.
I had a particularly vested interest overall as I purchased 2 12” MacBooks in 2015, each of which I returned within 2 days due to out-of-box keyboard issues.
The 2016 MacBook Pro launched, and I sat out a year solely because the forum quickly filled up with keyboard complaints. I pulled the trigger quickly after they launched the 2017 Macbook Pros. Same goes with the 12” Macbook; I purchased the 2016 iteration in hopes the “kinks” had been worked out. Now both my machines are on Apple’s repair program list.
I haven’t had issues with my MBP whatsoever. From what I read, there were subtle changes made between 2016 and 2017. My 12” Macbook has exhibited sticky keys from time to time but they’ve more or less gone away with time. I have family and friends who have had issues, particularly with the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard.
Can’t say I’m incredibly upset about this whole ordeal, but I can say it does take away from Apple as the “gold standard” of notebooks. I’m often the techie which friends and family refer to for purchasing decisions. I’ve had to explain this keyboard issue in detail to each of them, not to steer them away, but to give them the facts I’m aware of. Can’t say this was the case in the MacBook Air days.
I think it says something about Apple that a patent was filed in 2016, yet 2017 models are on the repair program list. I also think they’ve most definitely fixed the issue in the 2018 models, yet the fact they won’t admit it to TheVerge and other publications is pretty shameful. I understand the complexities due to ongoing lawsuits, but still, it’s less than classy for the world’s most valuable tech company.
I’ve been about as hesistant to admit it as anyone, but Apple is clearly on a downward slope, not an upward one. They were the gold standard for so many years in regards to smartphones, tablets, and laptops. While I still believe their tablet lead clearly exists, I think smartphones and more notably notebooks have truly become a conversation. Personally I love MacOS too much to switch, but the grass looks greener on the other side in many regards.
Here’s to hoping Apple turns this debacle around in their future Macbook iterations. Add me to the list of people who have lost faith in Tim Cook. They’ve become a more valuable company under his reign, but their legendary reputation of ‘customer first’ is pretty much put to rest, at this point. I think most loyalists on the forum would certainly agree.
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A huge difference between a point of marketing and a warranty extension. Apple only claims a tiny portion of users were affected by the issue, as if it's not an actual design flaw.
Looks like you have your official answer from Apple: No
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/15/third-gen-keyboard-exclusive-to-2018-macbook-pro/
According to AppleInsider’s data, keyboard failure rates for the last 4 model years of MBP are as follows:
2014 5.6%
2015 6.0%
2016 11.8%
2017 8.2%
The 2016 keyboard has nearly twice the failure rate as 2015. Not good. It was modified for 2017 and the effect of the redesign is apparent. Is 8.2% still too high? Yes, so Apple modified it again and we now have a third generation.
Only time will tell whether they’ll be successful in bringing that 8.2 number down even further.
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Yeah, saw that. Still doesn't make much logical sense.
It still can be the case that they are retrofitting just the membrane to the 2017 version and that's what they are using for both 2017 and 2016 models. And from anecdotes it is clear that nobody is getting the original 2016 keyboard as replacement in their 2016 models - at least 2017 keyboard.
But do we have an official answer? That hasn’t been made clear.
It was stated as “MacRumors has learned” but it was not mentioned if it was learned from an inside source or if it was an official statement by an authorized Apple representative. I’m sure MR will clarify.
Sadly, it probably is true. The reason is most likely the fact that the battery is larger on 15" models, and they would have to produce a different variant with a new keyboard but an older battery. Apple probably calculated that it is more affordable for them not to do that, and just go with the repair program.
That is disappointing. However, my keyboard replacement works really well at the moment and Apple says that the number of people with issues is small, so, I can hope it will last until I get a new notebook. If not, I will keep replacing it, and be angry at Apple
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I really don't see how Apple under Steve Jobs was any different, to be honest. If anything, under him Apple was even more arrogant and, actually, made more mistakes.
Agreed, it isn't down to Steve or Tim. Apple just became very big, and it is the curse of all companies which become so large and successful. Being agile or innovative becomes a lot more tougher. Development/QA processes end up with a myriad of issues which didn't exist a decade ago.
Let's not forget, Steve also made mistakes and their were products under him with serious flaws/issues too.
All they need to do is just to rivet the 2018 keyboard onto the 2016/17 topcases. Can't imagine why this would be economically less rational given the x number of times they otherwise might have to repair it with entirely new topcases.
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Which model of MBP/MB and does it feel softer and quieter too?
It’s a 2017 keyboard replacement (from late last year) on a 2016 MBP. It does feel softer, which is most likely because of the supposed different metal alloy used on the dome switch that is sturdier. My guess: they solved the dome heat bending issue with the 2017 models and the dust issue with the 2018 models. So I guess 2016 < 2017 < 2018. But that’s just a guess, of course.
What I can tell you is that this keyboard is much more uniform than the previous one, and doesn’t change the feel much depending on the warmth of the computer.
Well, doesn't have to be 2018 2018. If it's a bit more tactile and quieter then all is good, like this tweet:
https://twitter.com/owendesign/status/1018569080247324674
At some point, they will retrofit and we'll get fresh topcase with fresh battery if problem reoccurs.
https://twitter.com/owendesign/status/1018569080247324674
At some point, they will retrofit and we'll get fresh topcase with fresh battery if problem reoccurs.
Not necessarily, they never really fixed the defective 2011 GPU issue, they kept recycling the same old defective logic boards over and over.
They must have learned a lesson by now...
I'll also see what remedy I have under Australian Consumer Law, which is really pro-consumer. However, I am willing to wait for the keyboard to fail a second time and proceed based on what they do.
What lesson? They already stated that the 2018 keyboard is not going into the keyboard replacement program.
Words...means nothing...we need to see what lays under the current replacements. A friend of mine will go to replace his top case of his 2017 Wednesday and, with the people out there, they will look under the Caps key to see if its something new there
Its possible some people got them, but then Apple changed, revised or clarified their policy. I believe time will tell, but I think Apple's words cary a lot of weight in this situation