Is it morally acceptable to abuse a generous returns policy?

[TiggrToo]

Of course it’s morally wrong. Zero question about it.

And it’s an absolute given Apple factors this in - they’d have to to create realistic budgets.

Now if y’all want to take advantage of it, then no-one’s stopping you. Just know that the more this happens the higher Apple will raise their prices as a result - or lower their other overheads (e.g. wages).

So y’all go on thinking this is just fine. Just know that it’s not morally fine. Legal? Sure, Moral? No…

 

[choreo]

Does not affect Apple or their profitability until it drives the cost of their products so high they can no longer sell enough of them. Before that happens, they would just discontinue the practice. That said I have spent over $100,000 on Apple products over the years and never returned anything.

On the plus side once the Apple Car comes out there will be lots of refurbs for sale because some decides "red' is not their color!

 

[skaertus]

Just a few points:

1. Apple is doing very well and reporting record profits, so you may use and abuse the return policy as much as you can that you will not hurt the company.
2. The costs with the implementation of the return policy are already included in the price of the products. Do not feel bad about using the return policy, you are already paying for it.
3. Apple does not think twice before taking advantage of its position, be it to raise prices, threaten other companies, or abuse its monopolies. It is business as usual, and I do not see why consumers should not do the same.

 

[CarlJ]

Refurbished means wiping it clean, making sure it's not locked and functioning and putting a new wrapper on the box.

The indications are that Apple (can't comment on other retailers) does a whole lot more to refurbs than that.

 

[AppleFan22]

I don’t think so. Apple makes money from returns by selling refurbished products. The devices are never going to go to waste. The packaging might, but given the shift to sustainable materials over the last few years, I wouldn’t worry too much about that either.

As others have said, if the policy was bad for Apple, they would have changed it to make it better for them and worse for us. Luckily they haven’t, so we’re still able to return things we don’t like.

 

[setharsh]

@OP: Morally, for me, it would be a no. But I do understand other arguments and I respect them. But for me at least if I don't like it then ill return it. But I'm not going to abuse it to get a product, get my work done for 3 months and then return it later on. I did get use out of it, and it was not in good faith (at least that's how I feel).

Regardless of how good the company is at avoiding e-waste and recycling, the question was morally do I feel right? That's a no for me.

 

[parkds]

I have had Apple even endorse returns.

A few years ago I had just flown in for a shoot when my MacBook Pro started having a hardware malfunction. Went to the Genius Bar but they were not able to fix it before the shoot nor before I left town. They recommended that I purchase a new laptop, use it while I was on location, and then just return it before leaving. Easy peasy!

 

[Sanpete]

You're stating folks have no evidence but where's your evidence it raises prices? You can't possibly know that.

Simple math. It costs Apple money, so like all other costs for the product, it's reflected in the price.

Just a few points:

1. Apple is doing very well and reporting record profits, so you may use and abuse the return policy as much as you can that you will not hurt the company.
2. The costs with the implementation of the return policy are already included in the price of the products. Do not feel bad about using the return policy, you are already paying for it.
3. Apple does not think twice before taking advantage of its position, be it to raise prices, threaten other companies, or abuse its monopolies. It is business as usual, and I do not see why consumers should not do the same.

No one is worried about hurting Apple. The point about the price is a problem for everyone, though.

Using policies you appear to find objectionable as your own model seems an odd twist.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Is it moral to charge £20 for a cloth

It is nonmoral.

 

[CarlJ]

I feel it too. In general, not just with Apple. I bought a watch many years ago and it stoped working 9 years later, I returned it for a new watch. I had the second watch for 10 years and dropped it. They replaced that one too. Now they no longer offer the life time replacement warranty.

CostCo used to have a problem (don't know if they still do or if the policy changed), where (some) people would buy a big screen TV, take it home, use it for a year, and then when the new models came out, they'd return the one they had (as if they were dissatisfied with it and finally just figured that out a year later), and buy the new one. Basically giving themselves eternal free trade-ups. Whether that was within the letter of CostCo's rules, it was clearly morally/ethically wrong - it was abusing the intent of a "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" policy. They clearly were satisfied with it for a whole year.

As a few others here have said, I research the heck out of a thing before I buy it (especially for hundreds or thousands of dollars), and then return (non-broken) things in only extremely rare circumstances (if the product is actually defective, that's different, of course).

 

[CarlJ]

Is it moral to charge £20 for a cloth

That depends. Is it necessary for staying alive? Are they the only source for it?

If they were the only supplier for, say, water, or insulin, then charging high prices, just because they could, could pretty easily be argued to be immoral.

If they are selling something that you don't need to survive, let them stick whatever price tag on it they feel like. If people think it's a reasonable price, they'll buy it. If they don't think it's a reasonable price, they're free to skip it, or buy some alternative, and Apple will end up with a warehouse full of unsold cleaning cloths and will lower the price. That part of the system is sort of self-correcting.

 

[arn]

Several people here not getting the point that returns raise prices, for everyone. Some who do get it are claiming with no evidence that it's not a big enough effect to matter. What I see in these forums doesn't support that. Seems pretty common here.

This isn’t entirely certain. It’s possible that lenient returns policy increases sales more than it increases returns.

Relevant: https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/weird-psychology-of-store-returns.html

Why make it easier for your customers to take something back? These questions happen to be explored in a new meta-analysis — in other words, a study of studies — published recently in the Journal of Retailing. In that paper, researchers from the University of Texas at Arlington and the University of Texas at Dallas review 21 studies on the effect of lenient return policies on the number of purchases and subsequent returns. Overall, they found that policies tend to increase both purchases and, to a smaller but still significant degree, returns.

But, interestingly, the terms of the policy make a difference, in one surprising way in particular: The longer a store allows its customers to return something after purchasing, the less likely they are to ever actually return it.

Now consumer electronics isn’t necessarily the same as retail clothes but the point is, it may be a lenient return policy makes people far more likely to buy on whim and ultimately not return.

 

[Wolf1701]

The question is to do the right thing or the wrong thing.

We all know what is right and what is wrong. If it is wrong we try to justify it (apple is rich).

It's good that Apple offers this return policy, it's simply wrong to *abuse* it.

Same as assurances.

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Big companies don’t care about you, so why do you care about them?

This is such a silly question. I can’t imagine thinking like this and worrying about stuff like this, lmao.

I have like a 35% return rate on Amazon. Good. F Amazon and Jeff, maybe it will help account for the vast swaths of taxes they dodge.

That is a sad, depraved mindset. Why would anyone trust a person that felt this way? Morality is not situational — it is part of your character.

 

[arn]

Simple math. It costs Apple money, so like all other costs for the product, it's reflected in the price.

If it were simple as you say, then Apple offering no returns no matter what (all sales final, as is) would make them even more money. I’ll leave you to figure out why that’s not true.

 

[techfirth]

I once bought a pair of AirPods fit a colleague (leaving gift) before realising he may already have them.

I returned them to store unopened, where the rep then broke the cellophane film and inspected them. She said that people sometimes bring a box full of sand back, resealed, and that that regardless, once something has left the store and been returned, I opened, it will never be sold as new again. Seems a real shame…

 

[Macalway]

Statistics.

There's a percentage of deadbeats who will abuse. And at the other end, people like you who will feel bad about returning anything.

Can't argue with the numbers.

Oh yes, I forgot the 'crash and grab' window shoppers. Insurance covers them though.

 

[Madhatter32]

This isn’t entirely certain. It’s possible that lenient returns policy increases sales more than it increases returns.

Relevant: https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/weird-psychology-of-store-returns.html





Now consumer electronics isn’t necessarily the same as retail clothes but the point is, it may be a lenient return policy makes people far more likely to buy on whim and ultimately not return.

Good point on lenient return policies (which is why many retailers offer such policies I think) but abuse of such policies is not the same thing. Just ask LL Bean.

 

[Sanpete]

This isn’t entirely certain. It’s possible that lenient returns policy increases sales more than it increases returns.

Relevant: https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/weird-psychology-of-store-returns.html





Now consumer electronics isn’t necessarily the same as retail clothes but the point is, it may be a lenient return policy makes people far more likely to buy on whim and ultimately not return.

If it were simple as you say, then Apple offering no returns no matter what (all sales final, as is) would make them even more money. I’ll leave you to figure out why that’s not true.

What you quoted above is consistent with what I've said, which again isn't about whether it hurts Apple. They clearly have the return policy they do because it increases profit. It also causes, and the effect you quoted enables, them to charge more to cover the extra cost. If people make it less costly to have that policy, the price can be lower (or the product improved in other ways at the same price).

 

[collin_]

Purchasing a product with the intention of returning it (e.g. buying 2 identical devices and returning the color you like less) is unacceptable IMO. The first thing that comes to mind is the negative environmental impact of returning online purchases.

 

[miamialley]

I know that Apple have a very generous no questions asked returns policy. But I would imagine that there is a significant cost to this for Apple ( which is obviouly then passed onto us, as customers ). After all, they can’t just put stuff back on the shelf like a book from a book store. There‘s an economic cost, and there’s an environmental cost, but there’s also a moral cost in that it seems many people are gaming this generous policy by buying machines they know they don’t need, in order to ‘test’ stuff out. This means people keenly waiting for a machine have to wait longer.
What do other people on here think of this? For me it seems in poor taste; the policy is there for people who genuinely find that the machine they bought just doesn’t suit their needs. And yet some folk on here almost talk about buying two and returning one with glee. Is it the worst of human nature, the unacceptable face of consumerism set against the pleas of restraint at COP 26? Or am I just getting old and fusty?

As background, I’m looking to buy one of the new laptops and so I’ve been researching my purchase to see what I need, don’t need, may want etc. I’ve measured out screen sizes on my desktop to compare,and been into the local computer stores to see various current apple models. I’ve read various reviews and spent probably too much time watching various YouTubers of no proven expertise all trotting out identikit rundowns. I feel like I've done my research now and I’d be pretty certain that when I make my purchase I’m making it seriously.

So, what do others think?

If someone is 'abusing' the return policy, then yes it's morally wrong. If they use the return window to determine whether the device meets their needs, then that is not abuse.

 

[James Godfrey]

Premium prices = premium returns policy… coupled with the fact you only get said returns policy when purchasing directly from Apple which cuts out the middle man, thus earning Apple more money on each sale.

On top of this consumers generally pay more for products directly from Apple as they never have sales or reductions in prices etc…

So in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with buying a product with the uncertainty if your actually going to like it and taking advantage of the perks of buying directly from Apple and paying a higher price for their product than from a third party retailer.

 

[Skewlovevism]

How about this for you:

Imagine at night Tim Cook bathes himself in $100 bills. Sleeps on a stack of $100 bills shaped like a king size pillow. Wakes up and makes $100 sandwiches then his henchmens haul him to the office in a wagon and he is sitting on a throne made of $100 bills.

Let me just say that I don't give one flying **** about returning anything apple. You dig?

How beautifully irrelevant, sour post.

You talk like Tim Cook sits on his ar@e a whole day, doing nothing and not deserving anything he earns.

Guess what, the same applies to you then, just in smaller money scale.

Hopefully one day you will have your own company and ship things, people will just open, try and return to you. Then you might get it.

And yes, returns take money, make carbon footprint (send, return, repack, resend)

 

[arn]

What you quoted above is consistent with what I've said, which again isn't about whether it hurts Apple. They clearly have the return policy they do because it increases profit. It also causes, and the effect you quoted enables, them to charge more to cover the extra cost. If people make it less costly to have that policy, the price can be lower (or the product improved in other ways at the same price).

That doesn't follow.

If return policy => higher profit, then no return policy => lower profit. If Apple's making less money, they aren't going to cut consumer prices even further.

 

[toobravetosave]

I know that Apple have a very generous no questions asked returns policy. But I would imagine that there is a significant cost to this for Apple ( which is obviouly then passed onto us, as customers ). After all, they can’t just put stuff back on the shelf like a book from a book store. There‘s an economic cost, and there’s an environmental cost, but there’s also a moral cost in that it seems many people are gaming this generous policy by buying machines they know they don’t need, in order to ‘test’ stuff out. This means people keenly waiting for a machine have to wait longer.
What do other people on here think of this? For me it seems in poor taste; the policy is there for people who genuinely find that the machine they bought just doesn’t suit their needs. And yet some folk on here almost talk about buying two and returning one with glee. Is it the worst of human nature, the unacceptable face of consumerism set against the pleas of restraint at COP 26? Or am I just getting old and fusty?

As background, I’m looking to buy one of the new laptops and so I’ve been researching my purchase to see what I need, don’t need, may want etc. I’ve measured out screen sizes on my desktop to compare,and been into the local computer stores to see various current apple models. I’ve read various reviews and spent probably too much time watching various YouTubers of no proven expertise all trotting out identikit rundowns. I feel like I've done my research now and I’d be pretty certain that when I make my purchase I’m making it seriously.

So, what do others think?

There is nothing immoral about taking advantage of trillion dollar companies