iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

[dguisinger]

Oh, look! People are happy another product that dared to sync with iTunes is now locked up! Apple is so great and M$ sucks!



That’s because you don’t NEED a syncing software to put something on your Palm Pre. Drag&drop. I believe it’s touted as a cool feature of OS X too. Syncing software is just an added bonus.

I’m sorry, you are telling me Palm stole a string? Are you serious? The Pre emulates an iPod just like Wine emulates Windows. I don’t see anyone complaining about Wine. Double standards FTW.

I can’t believe some of you. If Microsoft did this, you’d be saying “hahaha. M$ sucks and they should pay $$$ for this.” When it’s Apple, you are all like “yay! Apple is locking me into their products!”

Anyway, people can still use doubleTwist to sync their Pre.

I'm a hardware engineer and take this quite seriously. When a company signs a licensing agreement (for example, USB license) they agree to only use their ID, and pay thousands of dollars a year to own that number. Palm and Apple are both licensees. Palm creates compatibility issues and breaks the guarantee of unique devices that is given by the USB spec. Palm isn't breaking just Apple's rules, they are breaking USB Consortium rules, which can result in their license being terminated.

So stop pulling a holier than throw attitude, its the same with PCI and all other licensed plug-n-play technologies. Device identifiers are paid for, licensed, and owned for a reason. If you don't like it, don't license (and therefore don't use) USB.

 

[parapup]

No one said it was illegal; however Palm could lose their ability to use the USB specification because they signed a contract - and therefore Palm's products could be forcibly recalled under contract law because they signed agreements and have to abide by them.

Well last I checked "stealing" was illegal ? (checks your post for word "stole")

The thing is if Palm is faking USB Ids for the sake of interoperability and public benefit no one is going to be able to legally revoke their contract. Even the USB vendor ID form allows this to be done under special circumstances.

Accolade "Stole" Sega's password to make compatible games and court said that was fine. Check the case.

 

[Goona]

I wonder why RIM wasn't smart like Palm to use this but instead choose to make their own application to sync with iTunes.

 

[parapup]

You can still use and sync all your media, just not with iTunes.

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

 

[gatepc]

I really don't know where to go with this. I think apple did the right thing because they spent lots of money developing itunes and then some company ( palm ) is just going to start using it for there devices? I don't think that is right! but then I think apple is being kinda a dick about blocking potentialy costumers. I mean apple could potentially make money from the palm pre crowd.

 

[str1f3]

Big surprise.

 

[Shasterball]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

??? Who's the thief?

 

[Krizoitz]

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd.

All three of them

Look, why should Apple provide free help for Palm? If Palm wants to add sync capabilities they should write their own software OR come to an agreement with Apple on doing it honestly and openly. Palm chose to be lazy and sneaky and they deserve what they get. They aren't the victim here, they are the thief.

 

[stainlessliquid]

Mmm... no. It isn't. So Apple should sue Microsoft for the ability to run .exe files? I think not.

THAT is a ridiculous argument.

No, your argument is ridiculous. EXE's can run OSX. Needing extra software does not change anything. Thats like saying .torrents dont work in OSX.

 

[Peace]

I really don't know where to go with this. I think apple did the right thing because they spent lots of money developing itunes and then some company ( palm ) is just going to start using it for there devices? I don't think that is right! but then I think apple is being kinda a dick about blocking potentialy costumers. I mean apple could potentially make money from the palm pre crowd.

Apple makes very little off the iTunes music/video store. Their money comes from hardware.

 

[dragossh]

OK Not Stealing - But why does Apple have to put in resources to make other companies hardware compatible with iTunes.

It’s called interoperability. Why does Apple have to support hardware from 3rd parties on OS X?

Ok I know you are trolling, but I'm going to answer anyways...

I’m not trolling. I’m just sick of the constant bashing of anything that is not Apple and of the level of fanboyism on this forum.

Drag and drop isn't universal. It work for Applications, not devices trying to acquire certain files.

Grab a Pre, and throw some media at it using Finder. See if it works.

Yes, it emulates an iPod, and its not supposed to. If Palm had went to Apple for this, then no problem. But as it is, Palm is uses deception code to make iTunes believe a fake iPod. Apple is well in their rights as software owner to fix said bug/glitch.

Wine emulates Windows without Microsoft’s approval. That’s not stealing, and not illegal. Pre - iTunes is the exact same situation. Apple is in their rights to break Pre syncing, of course, but I’m no lawyer. This could very well be investigated by the DOJ or the EU.

 

[dguisinger]

Well last I checked "stealing" was illegal ? (checks your post for word "stole")

The thing is if Palm is faking USB Ids for the sake of interoperability and public benefit no one is going to be able to legally revoke their contract. Even the USB vendor ID form allows this to be done under special circumstances.

Accolade "Stole" Sega's password to make compatible games and court said that was fine. Check the case.

the USB Consortium ONLY allows it with the owning vendor's permission or if they go out of business. Did Apple give permission? No. Did Apple go out of business? No. Apple owns those IDs under the agreement, Palm by stealing them breaks the guarantees provided by the consortium license, and therefore Palms own IDs and license can be revoked.

There is stealing as in physical property under the law, illegal.
There is stealing as in using intellectual property which must be settled via courts and contract law, it may not be illegal but if it violates a contract the contract can be terminated.

 

[anjinha]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

iTunes is free and you can use it with Windows too.

Maybe you people don't understand but part of Apple's agreement with the record labels for iTMS is that iTunes only works with iPods. If Apple allowed this it could create some trouble for them with the labels.

Also if Palm wanted to use iTunes they could have tried to reach an agreement with Apple. Instead they chose the sneaky way. That is their own fault.

 

[SubtltzSir]

Not Reading

Because that release was really from 2004!

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jul/26motorola.html
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail.jsp?globalObjectId=4505_3838_23

-Kevin

Thanks Kevin. Not sure why it's dated 2009 on the site I linked to, but obviously SOMEONE (not me) actually doesn't just skim the articles that Google News sees fit to pull up.

Sign me - embarrassed - .

 

[Sehnsucht]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed. Don't forget, Apple was already zinged by France over iTunes store.

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

For the millionth time. Apple doesn't have to allow third-party devices to sync with their software. Songs purchased from the iTunes store can still be played on the Pre, there is simply no syncing. You "anti-monopoly" people are so full of it. Should I be flustered that I can't use my iPod touch with the Zune desktop software? And speaking of that, check out this out:

The Zune is made by Microsoft. It can sync only with Zune Desktop. Zune Desktop, also made by Microsoft, is only available for Windows, which is also made by Microsoft.

See where that's going? Lack of syncing ability does not hamper Pre users from being able to use the iTunes store. It's not anti-competitive, it's exactly what the hell anyone else would do.

 

[marksman]

Unless apple has some encryption key on all the iphones I am not sure how they could keep Palm from just doing it again. I hope they do, then they could lock them out. Otherwise, though, all that is going between the iphone/pre and itunes is data, and palm can spoof it to say whatever iTunes needs to hear to believe it is an iphone.

I hope Apple does have a way to verify the device that is not just spoofed by palm. I don't have a problem with Apple doing this. There is no reason to help/allow your competitor to make their product more appealing to the public at your expense. The downside is much greater than the updside for apple here, and thus doing this makes perfect sense.

 

[Krizoitz]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

Uh yeah exactly. Apple provides iTunes FOR FREE to anyone and everyone. It allows you to buy music and media, manage it, and play it. In addition if you have an iPod or iPhone you can sync too.

Now you think they should have to write Palms software for them? If Palm wants to sync information with the pre they either need to do it through public API's honestly, or they need to write their own solution, or they need to come to an agreement with able.

Instead they decided to be lazy/sneaky and get all the benefit with very little work.

Apple, understandly said no way.

 

[macnchiefs]

It isn't music that people are saying is being stolen It is the intelectual property of using iTunes to sync with non Apple devices. Apple makes iTunes, they have a right to choose what it syncs with.

Does Nikon let Canon Camera's sync with Nikon transfer?

Same argument.

I don't think Canon would go that route since they have their own software and Nikon doesn't have a total monopoly on picture management software but I understand your argument.

Is Palm stealing because they just used the syncing function inherent in iTunes? Has apple patented the ability to sync from iTunes without third party software? Or is this just a case where they are closing a hole where iTunes can recognize non apple devices as an iPod?

I think it's the latter. If Palm was truly "stealing" anything then you probably would have seen lawsuits. Instead it's probably more of a case where Apple plugged a hole where iTunes could recognize non apple devices as an iPod. And again as I stated before they have the full right to do so since they own iTunes. There is nothing wrong in what they did.

If you do own a non-apple device and use iTunes on your computer then just use doubletwist. And really it's a better solution since you don't have Apple's odd numbering scheme with all the folders where you music resides.

But I also hope that people who congratulate Apple for doing this are not the ones turning around jailbreaking their phones or teathering... that would make everyone a bunch of hypocrits and we all know those don't exist on these boards right?...

 

[slapppy]

About Time

Why should these guys ride of the hard work that Apple has done. Let them create their own store.

 

[t22design]

The first couple of pages of this thread helps me understand why some people hate Apple fanboys.

Palm should have sought whatever licenses they needed, but celebratory posts about 8.2.1 breaking Pre syncing are juvenile.

 

[Rootus]

Apple is in their rights to break Pre syncing, of course, but I’m no lawyer. This could very well be investigated by the DOJ or the EU.

You don't have to be a lawyer to see that the DOJ and EU won't care. Anti-competitive behavior is not illegal unless you are a monopoly. Apple is a long ways from having a monopoly in the music player market.

 

[nagromme]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

No, you'd have to use something else because iTunes doesn't sync with Pre and "something else" (a sync app that I'm sure Palm will release) does. If Palm is late with that, it's worth complaining to Palm.

So, you use iTunes AND a free app from Palm. You do NOT have to give up the iTunes you paid for (although actually that's free even on Windows). You can keep using iTunes and then listen to your iTunes music on your Pre even AFTER this hole was closed. iTunes officially supports 3rd-party companion apps, which is the right way to do what Palm wants. Now they just need to do it.

When you bought from Apple, you didn't buy on the promise of Apple supporting Pre by any particular method, unless you misunderstood something. There IS a right method, but Palm chose not to use it.

Palm took a risk in that--and worse, they made customers like YOU take the risk with them.

Blame Apple if you want, but blame Palm more. There was a REAL solution (XML) always available to them, and they didn't use it. They thought pretending to be an iPod was a clever trick--and it was--but few people expected it to make sense in the long run.

I suppose Palm may have done it all as a publicity stunt? Make Apple close the hole and then look bad? But few people will care--and Apple already has a reputation for being closed (which is amusing when compared with Microsoft). So I don't see what PR advantage this is really worth to Palm. A very small one, and at a high price to Palm users. If Palm saw this coming (and surely they did) then they knowingly allowed their Pre customers to run into problems down the road. If I were a Palm customer I wouldn't care for that strategy!

 

[JayMan8081]

This isn't really all that surprising considering Palm's syncing was a hack to begin with. So now Palm will release an update for the Pre that will work around whatever changes Apple just made. Here we go!

 

[ortuno2k]

I'm glad they released it and it breaks Palm syncing.
Shows them not to steal software and/or ideas.

 

[314631]

+1 - Why alienate a potential customer? People buying Pres are buying them because they fit their needs better for various reasons, why not get revenue from the iTunes store?

Because they make more money from selling hardware at extortionate prices than selling other peoples content for nickel and dime margins. That's the Apple business model.

And I'm not sure why Palm wants to bother with iTunes. It's horrible software on both Windows and Mac. Palm should just take advantage of the syncing capabilities of Windows Media Player; software 95%+ of the market is already using and let Apple keep their closed shop.