Microsoft Says 'Disappointment' of New MacBook Pro Has More People Switching to Surface Than Ever Before

[robeddie]

Is it really "well thought-out reasons why Apple is blowing it", or is it the usual rabble-rabble that comes up every single freaking time that Apple does a major redesign?

You've been a forum member here longer than I have.

Do you remember the forums here after the 2012 MacBook Pro redesign?

The RAM was soldered in. The SuperDrive was gone. There were no Ethernet or DVI ports anymore.

What were the typical comments back then?

"They're going to lose major customers over this"
"Apple is blowing it"
"They value thinness over function"
"Their prices are so high that nobody's going to buy these"
"They just make toys"
"You need an adapter for everything now"

It's so repetitive. What's going on now is such a rehash of what happened in 2012, and I think that's where a lot of the dismissiveness is coming from.

Well known Apple fan Marco Arment recently called what apple is doing 'death by a thousand cuts'. He explained that each little change and user-unfriendly move by apple in itself, may not tick off a large number of users, but as you add up each one of them, you start to see a groundswell of dissatisfsction with apple that is much more than ever before.
You can put on the blinders and say "this is just like when they removed the cd drive ... bla bla bla", but as you said, I've been on this site for a long long time, and while there have always been pockets of discontent about this or that, I've never seen the level of discontent with Apple anywhere near like it is now, both on this site, in the tech press, or the world at large.

I'm sure you dismiss all this as just another 'phase', and Apple will be fine. So go load up on more Apple stock, and wait for the riches to come pouring in, I'm sure apple will be just fine, like they always have, right?

 

[spacebro]

Is it really "well thought-out reasons why Apple is blowing it", or is it the usual rabble-rabble that comes up every single freaking time that Apple does a major redesign?

You've been a forum member here longer than I have.

Do you remember the forums here after the 2012 MacBook Pro redesign?

The RAM was soldered in. The SuperDrive was gone. There were no Ethernet or DVI ports anymore.

What were the typical comments back then?

"They're going to lose major customers over this"
"Apple is blowing it"
"They value thinness over function"
"Their prices are so high that nobody's going to buy these"
"They just make toys"
"You need an adapter for everything now"

It's so repetitive. What's going on now is such a rehash of what happened in 2012, and I think that's where a lot of the dismissiveness is coming from.

I remember everybody being impressed with the 2012 updates. The first person in my office to get one had a lot of attention from people coming to look at it. Removing the cdrom was awesome and is what got me to switch to mac. With this update I'm happy about removing hdmi, ok with removing old usb, but annoyed that they didn't leave a micro SD or a thunderbolt port. Just a few years ago the thunderbolt port was "the port of the future" and they have taken it away too soon. The 2012 update was also impressive because 16gb ram in a laptop was more than anybody needed at a time when most laptops came with 2 or 4gb ram. The 2016 update has very little to set itself apart from a surface book or other windows pc and is actually inferior to any performance laptop. The lack of a ram upgrade in 4 years is ridiculous. There were people who needed more ram with 5k in the bank ready to buy the next macbook pro. I was excited about a possible xeon macbook and possible external gpu. Apple has done none of that. Instead, I took my $5000 and built a $800 pc that wrecks a max 2016 macbook pro.

 

[lowendlinux]

Totally agree with the comments above. Replacing laptop every couple years like replacing iPhones sounds ridiculously absurd and wasting a lot of money unwisely. Replacing iPhone every two years sounds okay, but laptop with 2-4K every two year sounds unbelievably unwise.

We've been conditioned by the tech giants to buy laptops we've got people here that admit that the portable never leaves the desk and remains plugged into an external display and drives and all that jazz. The reality is that a great many people would be served better by a cheaper laptop and a good old fashioned desktop.

 

[niploteksi]

The RAM was soldered in. The SuperDrive was gone. There were no Ethernet or DVI ports anymore.

Obviously this didn't break Apple, but this was when I decided to not buy their laptops. This new Macbook Pro is about 4k usd including tax where I live and with 16gb of soldered in ram, that's just not something I'm willing to buy into. I know some may not blink in spending that kind of money on a machine like that and I bet they have a grand time with their shiny laptop. To me it just feels like a giant rip off and I'm trying to not be whiny but this is just too depressing... So even if I wouldn't buy one of the Surface models, there are plenty of hardware that suits me better. If it wasn't for Core Audio I wouldn't even consider going back to buying Apple computers.

 

[v0lume4]

You must mean no one has created a better MacBook. With Windows there are options and there are countless incredible machines that are more powerful, cost effective and multi-purpose. Apple must make perfect products to compete and their NOT doing that anymore!

Want a professional laptop, look at the Dell XPS15...

Want a gaming laptop, look at the Razer, Asus, Gigabyte etc...

Want a powerful ultra book that is a convertible, look at the new HP x360 which is 2.8lbs convertible laptop with 16gb of memory 7th generation i7 and 10 hours of battery life for $1,200...

In 6 months were going to be seeing eGPU (External Graphics) via USB-C that you can connect to almost any laptop that will turn a computer into a full on gaming machine or professional desktop machine. Oh, Apple disabled this functionality on the new MacBook.

The quality of all computer manufactures are catching up with Apple and at a lower cost. Most computer manufacturers are not looking for 40% margins! The money your giving Apple isn't going into the products but going into their bank accounts and why they have 230 billion dollars!

Microsoft just showed off Windows 10 running on Qualcomm Snapdragon processors (Yea, mobile processors). Imagine a phone that has mobile apps and can run x86 applications which hooks to a eGPU via USB-C! A full quad core Qualcomm Snapdragon desktop! Thing a business would be interested in that? Think a family who can't afford multiple devices would be interested in that?

Apple wants to sell you MANY products while Microsoft and other companies are producing products that can be multi-purpose at a reduced cost. Apple isn't innovating anymore... even when it should be easy since they make products that are for a single purpose!

Tim

Well said!

Also, man, I must be behind the times. Just researched the HP Spectre after you mentioned it. WOW! What a beautiful machine! And what an attractive pricetag!

 

[dgdosen]

I pretty much switched to macos and the apple environment back in 2007. I don't see myself ever going back to Windows. What keeps me away from Windows is the lack of Unix/Linux underpinnings. What piques my interest is if/ever there will be a linux laptop that'll be good enough to beat what's coming from Apple.

From a dev environment perspective, I think Linux would be a dream - but I'd have questions on:
- office like apps
- messaging/sms integration
- that's it!

 

[maflynn]

What keeps me away from Windows is the lack of Unix/Linux underpinnings.

Why?

Honest question, what do you think OS X gives you with the Unix underpinnings? I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather, I'd like know your reasoning

 

[dgdosen]

Basically your garden variety terminal support, the ease of attaching to remote servers via ssh, using my same vim configuration on both mac and unix machines, being to build and run apps natively that run on a server...

That's a good start. Sure, containerization might make that easier on Windows, but IMO, I'd rather not compromise.

 

[ipponrg]

Why?

Honest question, what do you think OS X gives you with the Unix underpinnings? I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather, I'd like know your reasoning

I'm in the same boat as him. Like some other devs mentioned earlier in the thread, developing in a Windows environment is not as great for portability especially when most dev servers nowadays are running off of unix.

 

[LordVic]

I also have been saying that Apple should re-revamp and return to being a computer company. Its focus on new emoji and "hot" music, its concern with watches (I have one) and their aesthetics, are distracting it from its real talents: computers, iPads and iPhones. The competition in these areas is becoming fiercer, and Apple should give far more attention to what they really know (knew?) how to do.

See, i'm of the opinion that Apple CAN and SHOULD expand out into lots of different markets.

But the problem isn't the markets / products, it's just that they still operate in the "small business" mindset. They still think that their executives can be integrated into the day to day decision making and that everything, every design decision, every solution they present must be passed through a small handful of people.

Apple is no longer where they were when Steve Jobs came back. They're now one of the wealthiest, and one of the largest consumer companies. They don't need to stop spreading themselves, they need to stop relying on a small group of executives (who have shown to be out of touch with reality) to make every single decision for the company.

It's time that Apple makes their departments more self reliant. there's enough money and people to run their computer department. there's enough money to do watches. Enough for iPhones and enough for iPads. there's enough for services. There's enough to have management in place to handle their own departments and still release products.

Look at the most succesfull, and long lasting companies in tech. They don't succeed because their CEO's are micromanagers. Google's and Microsoft's don't run every single department out of one office. As long as Apple continues to believe they can run everything from one office, they'll continue to run into this lack of focus.

 

[jasonhedgepeth]

The Surface Book owns and the Studio looks like an imac killer. Although I use my imac on a monitor arm, so the Studio wouldnt work for me...

I like the Surface Studio a lot. I did see a review by Tested and they had several professional artists come in and try it out. The only complaint is the pen leaving a tiny curve at the beginning of drawing a line. They stated they would move away from the Cintiq if MS fixed that. Otherwise, a gorgeous machine.

 

[Jimmy James]

I think this has more to do with the price than anything else.

Agreed. I might consider buying one at a lower price, regardless of ports, CPU, or Touchbar. At this price though...

 

[jasonhedgepeth]

This.

I totally agree 100%. I'd rather have a slightly thicker laptop that supported more memory and user replaceable parts than something I can't upgrade. I like the idea of the touch bar, but some of the limitations on it saved my wallet until hopefully next year's model.

 

[mi7chy]

I can't speak to whether or not they were going to charity... but this is the company handling the most recent Microsoft Trade in program: http://cexchange.com They're an electronics recycling business just like many others, not a charity organization. I'm not against giving things for a good cause, but there's probably much better options than this for that.

That said, the price given for trade-in via companies like this is generally so far below market rate it's basically insulting. You'd get more money from lowball offers on craigslist.

They could have different policies for companies they represent. For example, for company A they might be instructed to resell or recycle whichever is more profitable while company B could be donate to charity only for tax write off.

People's time has a worth that needs to be factored into the decision to trade in or resell. For some, their time is worth more than getting a higher resale price.

 

[lowendlinux]

I pretty much switched to macos and the apple environment back in 2007. I don't see myself ever going back to Windows. What keeps me away from Windows is the lack of Unix/Linux underpinnings. What piques my interest is if/ever there will be a linux laptop that'll be good enough to beat what's coming from Apple.

From a dev environment perspective, I think Linux would be a dream - but I'd have questions on:
- office like apps
- messaging/sms integration
- that's it!

Libre/Open Office

Pushbullet

 

[jasonhedgepeth]

I see your point, but after a certain degree packing a laptop with high TDP chips is going to turn it into a mITX computer with a screen bolted on. Apple's latest laptops are more than powerful enough for what a laptop needs to do at a 'Pro' level. Apple thinks anything more is best suited to a desktop computer and I agree, I'd like to point out their Mac Pro but, we all know the state of that now almost literal trashcan (it really is living up to it's nickname).

I wish they'd bring back the tower Mac Pro. I loved mine. That machine was a beast! The trashcan is a good machine, but the tower was a thing of beauty and raw power.

 

[idunn]

The problem with this is, Apple never admits it is wrong, it never goes back and adds something it has removed. Many high-end/professional/business/whatever users, myself included, would have been happy with a thicker laptop that enabled both legacy USB 3.0 and USB-C/TB3 ports, multiple graphics ports (mini-DP/HDMI, etc.) because if you travel you don't always know what projector you will have to connect to (VGA is still useful today), an SD slot and be really courageous and put the sodding Ethernet port back in there as dongles are rubbish - they work loose, RJ45 cables don't work loose, and wifi doesn't exist in the greenfield sites I work I as we are part of the team installing it. This increase in size would also enable a bigger battery, and have space for 64GB RAM without effecting the battery life...

A lot of people would prefer a full-fat, work-ready laptop, not a MacBook Air. Sure there are many people who have modest requirements where portability is key, and the Air or the MB is perfect for that. But the MacBook Pro, Pro being the operative word, should have no compromises. It should be built to compete with the Lenovo P50/P70 or the Dell Precision 7510/7710. The primary design goals are performance and flexibility - portable comes after these.

This is why some users are moving to Windows laptops. It's not about being a 'Slave' to an OS, and besides all of these machines can run Linux, it's that Apple do not make high-end hardware. I personally run a lot of VM's for my development work. 16GB doesn't cut it, I need 32GB minimum, ideally 64GB. Where's Apple's laptop with that much RAM? They don't make one. I have no option to move to a Windows laptop - Linux doesn't have a application support I need - so Windows it is. Windows 10 is not quite as good as OS X, but it's not far behind.

Apple simply do not want to compete in the mobile workstation market as they would have to make a product that is bigger than the previous generation to do so. This obsession with lightness unfortunately doesn't enable me to get my job done. There's no point waiting for a 'real MBP' as Apple will not build one under the current management team. Time to move on.

My feeling Apple will rue the day it blithely decided to jettison its high end customers. That as small as this market is it can still make a decent profit for them, but far beyond that the demands in excellence required raise all else Apple and improves the brand.

Mr. Cook obviously thinks otherwise, and has bet the farm on iOS. With the Macintosh viewed as a legacy product he has no love, respect or interest in; the introduction of the 2016 MBP could argue against this, but is an iOS/OSX hybrid, and an insult to what the MacBook Pro once stood for—not to mention should be.

Much as myself and others may not like this, perhaps Mr. Cook is correct in his strategy and he can do without us as customers, looking to all the many more who are largely satisfied with their iPhone, iPad 'Pro' or MacBook 'Pro.' Maybe.

Yet it could be argued that Apple since the demise of Mr. Jobs has largely existed upon his legacy, and thus far thrived through Mr. Cook's skill in extending the life of existing products (if obviously not with most Macintosh).

Products developed and introduced under the reign of Mr. Cook seem far more questionable. Witness the clunk of the iWatch, which among other things is begging for a far better battery, not to mention some higher purpose in use. Then that he presumably excels in, logistics, are a mess with an assortment of products delayed or largely AWOL on introduction. One wonders.

Or they cannot even get iOS right, which sprang from OSX. Perhaps a renewed interest in and resurgence in all Macintosh could reinvigorate their entire product line. It would require only a paltry sum from their many billions, quite possibly paying dividends many times over. The only real cost would lie in a few bruised egos at Apple who have other ideas and directions in mind. Theoretically.

In practice Apple seems oft adrift, directionless, and listing to port.

 

[LordVic]

I wish they'd bring back the tower Mac Pro. I loved mine. That machine was a beast! The trashcan is a good machine, but the tower was a thing of beauty and raw power.

I think the new Mac Pro (trashcan) should have been the new "Mac Desktop". available with options of CPU and GPU (either single or dual, consumer grade) and should have cost about 1/2 of what it does.

for home consumer usage, with some gaming in mind, this would have been a killer desktop. ESpecially for Small Form Factor enthousiasts who look for moderate gaming, but also portability

But as a "Pro" computer, where people have expansion issues, and much higher requirements, the Trashcan was a disaster. The fact it's been 3 years and it's not updated is even more a disaster considering the parts it was using at the time weren't exactly the most up to date either.

 

[wooddjw]

Microsoft has announced November was its best month ever for consumer Surface sales. In a blog post, the company said more people are switching from Macs to Surface devices than ever before following the "disappointment" of the new MacBook Pro, particularly among professional users.

Shortly after the new MacBook Pro launched, Microsoft launched a trade-in promotion offering MacBook Pro and MacBook Air owners up to $650 credit towards a new Surface Book or Surface Pro 4. Microsoft also unveiled the Surface Studio in October, and the all-in-one desktop has been met with positive reviews.

Microsoft's Surface Book starts at $1,499, the same price as Apple's new 13-inch MacBook Pro with a standard row of function keys. Touch Bar-equipped models start at $1,799 for 13-inch models and $2,399 for 15-inch models.

Article Link: Microsoft Says 'Disappointment' of New MacBook Pro Has More People Switching to Surface Than Ever Before

 

[maflynn]

But the problem isn't the markets / products, it's just that they still operate in the "small business" mindset. They still think that their executives can be integrated into the day to day decision making and that everything, every design decision, every solution they present must be passed through a small handful of people.

I think they've gotten so big, its hard to have a startup business structure ,which has served them so well. While I'm not fan of bureaucracy, apple doesn't seem able to focus on iPhones, iPads and Macs at the same time. They frequently take people from one area to work on a problem.

 

[Naimfan]

My feeling Apple will rue the day it blithely decided to jettison its high end customers. That as small as this market is it can still make a decent profit for them, but far beyond that the demands in excellence required raise all else Apple and improves the brand.

(Emphasis added.)

An excellent point - exactly correct.

 

[wooddjw]

I have a Macbook 2008 Unibody. Upgraded 8gb RAM and to SSD. Was hoping 2016 Macbook Pro would be it. Sadly not. Poor Graphics for editing and Wow what a price now. Apple is going Leica direction (only a toy and for jewellery) which I also used to own (M6,MP,M7,M8 multiple lenses). I will give them one last chance next year..

 

[melendezest]

I'm not saying it's an isolated case. There's always a very loud group online complaining no matter what Apple does. And there are people that defend Apple, but then the crowd just attacks them (like they do here on Mac Rumors, which I find ironic given the purpose of the site) it's easier to just ignore it.

I wouldn't argue with the Mac Pro... but thats not what everyone's currently complaining about (other than Apple not updating it, what else is new). I don't see any such trend with the Macbook Pro. It's becoming slimmer... just as it has for... decades now. Apple's forcing technological leaps (USB-C)... just as they've done every now and then for decades now, It's not like they released a less powerful machine here. They're also not using high end graphics chipsets... just as they've done for decades now. None of this is new in any way.

And I find the OS X becoming more iOS like argument funny. Sure, they introduced Launch Pad (which Im not sure I've actually seen anyone ever use). But thats about as far as I've seen that go. The part where this is funny is everyone crying about wanting touch screens... you know how that's accomplished? by making the OS more touch friendly (i.e. iOS like). Which is exactly what Microsoft did and people complain about (see where everybody complains no matter what?).

People are far too emotionally attached to Apple's releases. They can't make everyone happy. They're also a business. They release what they know can reach the majority of their customers, which I think is what they've done with the new Macbook Pro. Doesn't work for you? There's a TON of other OEMs out there who might have what you need.

Anyone jumping ship to a Surface or Surface Pro is doing nothing but trading a touch bar for a touch screen, future ports for legacy ports, or buying an old model, because the new ones are priced about the same as the Macbook Pros and have the same RAM limitations. Not that they're bad machines, it's just more of a side move than anything.

So far I find that most complaints regarding the MBP are valid. I mean, which complaints do you feel are invalid?

-Loss of MagSafe
-Loss of USB type A
-Loss of SD Card slot
-Loss of HDMI
-Loss of replaceable SSD, user or otherwise
-Loss of glowing Apple logo (let's face it, aesthetics matter to Apple fans)
-Loss of startup chime (sentimental, I know, but still)
-Controversial (at best) keyboard
-(Relatively) intrusive trackpad
-(Relatively) High cost (particularly given the necessary investment in new adapters)

This is not to mention all the problems they've had since their release.

The only way in which the new MBP replaces the old one is in the fact that Apple says it does. "Here you go, make do with this." This is exactly what they did with the Mac Pro in 2013. Some were like "Nice! WooHoo!"

But again, those that actually took advantage of the hardware features of the machine were like "WTF!?"

I agree Apple has been doing this for a while, but the removal of "traditionally pro" features on their "pro" portables actually began in 2012, with the Retina MBP (soldering the RAM + proprietary SSD). And since Apple released the MacBook Air (even earlier), they've been converging the consumer and Pro lines. Why make 2 when one line will do? The current MBP incorporates every compromise that the Air took in becoming an ultrabook, combined with the MacBook, and there you go. Everything soldered, 1 port (type), no glowing logo, but it's thin and in nice new colors. If an iPad is a "Pro" device and all you need (according to its CEO), and Airs are being used in many Pro situations... you get the idea. The iMac is the same deal: it's the NEW Mac Pro. This is the NEW Apple.

And while some of the above may be sentimental, emotion does not need to factor into the issue. Computers have a very real monetary attribute attached to them. People invest in them, and their ecosystem. In this case, Apple has made the most incompatible machine they have ever made, in the sense that you have to buy adapters for EVERYTHING in order to incorporate it into existing infrastructures. Unless you can make do with wireless everything and redo your infrastructure from the ground up.

Thus, I feel this machine is too early. And unnecesarily so.

And I think that that is the gist of the complaints, which could not be more valid.

 

[jasonhedgepeth]

I think the new Mac Pro (trashcan) should have been the new "Mac Desktop". available with options of CPU and GPU (either single or dual, consumer grade) and should have cost about 1/2 of what it does.

for home consumer usage, with some gaming in mind, this would have been a killer desktop. ESpecially for Small Form Factor enthousiasts who look for moderate gaming, but also portability

But as a "Pro" computer, where people have expansion issues, and much higher requirements, the Trashcan was a disaster. The fact it's been 3 years and it's not updated is even more a disaster considering the parts it was using at the time weren't exactly the most up to date either.

I could see the trashcan being the new Mac desktop as well. That would have been a great idea.
Once I sold my Mac Pro, I went with a 27" iMac (late 2012) and I like it, but having to carefully remove the screen to upgrade the HDD with a solid state and tear it apart because the hinge snapped really didn't bode well for me. The machine is great and functional, but not the powerhouse that the tower was.
I do tons of HD video and photography (hobby) and record gaming from my consoles, but the iMac is slowly dying. It really can't handle what I throw at it anymore.
I wanted a new MacBook Pro, but wasn't really impressed with the Tim Cook presentation. Maybe next year...

 

[mi7chy]

I also use W10 everyday after i ditched my Mac Pro and I think it is years ahead of MacOS. It's much, much faster than MacOS, and at last it's stable for a change (mind also that this is on a custom-made PC).

I'd also prefer Linux, however. Now, combine these 2 things and you'll get to my point: Having a PC with W10 and/or Linux on it, I see no reason at all to go back to Mac anymore, thanks to Tim.

Bingo. Windows dominate the enterprise desktop and runs all the professional design and engineering software. It has built-in Hyper-V virtualization and now Linux bash shell. And, Linux owns the internet and data centers. MacOS is a niche OS. I use Linux for work but for personal I like simplicity and not having to deal with command line geekery, for example, to get a simple USB to serial dongle working when it's plug and play on Windows.