My theories on why Apple's software quality has degraded so much.

[RedWeasel]

An interesting interview (writeup) on one of the pioneers of Mach Microkernel and Mac OS X.

It's worthwhile interview to watch in full (for those interested), Avie Tevanian was one of the key people behind Mac OS X. Unfortunately he's long gone (from Apple).

Funnily enough, the other main figure behind Mach (Richard Rashid) ended up at Microsoft Research.

 

[chmania]

It's worthwhile interview to watch in full (for those interested), Avie Tevanian was one of the key people behind Mac OS X. Unfortunately he's long gone (from Apple).

Funnily enough, the other main figure behind Mach (Richard Rashid) ended up at Microsoft Research.

Actually, Richard Rashid was the senior of the two. Avie Tevanian also was interested in joining Microsoft, and for some reason he joined NeXT, and the rest is history. Here's an oral history of Richard Rashid and Microsoft Research, now a Researcher Emeritus. It's a long read, but quite interesting.

 

[GeorgeCo]

The problem is not specific to Apple. See https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/the-general-theory-of-******tification

Apparently the site doesn't like the slang word for feces, google "Paul Krugman ******tification"

 

[Fallforward]

You may well have some good recommendations. I do know you're looking into a house through a tiny hole in the wall of one room (the OS) and trying to describe the furnishings and suggesting how to improve them.

A good clue is your description of IBM, "The company didn’t vanish. Its relevance in the consumer space did." Not true. IBM was extremely relevant to the consumer before and after the PC, which at its peak was just 10% of its profit. You didn't know the remainder because your could not see it.

When you use your bank's ATM you are probably dependent on various hardware and software products from companies like Diebold Nixdorf, Cisco, Oracle, Salesforce, Microsoft, SAP (really), Infosys, etc, etc, etc - and IBM to a higher level than you might have with their PC. Large banks often created their own systems written in COBOL that ran on IBM MVS (and still do today) but other IBM products in new systems, as well. Payment Clearance timing added complexity, once clearing took days and then intra-day, now it's instant. Global banking adds another significant level of complexity due to local regulators and market preferences. Fraud prevention has become much more complex. Yet, banks must make all that complexityl work seamlessly to meet your needs and not screw up your banking experience. But banks do screw up because the compexity of their operations is exponentially more complex than what you see standing at your ATM.

Why mention banks? Apple is analogous to the above banking model and your desciption of Apple via iOS is similar to understanding said banks via a critique of your ATM experience.

 

[Andy_2341]

Firstly, I really, REALLY like raw cookie dough. By itself, in ice creams, shakes, just really enjoy it. When I bake these, I always make excess, roll that excess into bit-sized balls, freeze them, and enjoy from time to time right out of the freezer. Yeah, I know, raw egg E. coli and flour E. coli and salmonella. I’m good thanks.

But as to Apple, your question is hypothetical as Apple will do exactly nothing different. What it is doing today is viewed by them as working very well for their business so why change anything? Just do more of it. At the margin, will a bug fix or inconsistency repair sell another device, or will that slick new animoji, whatever that is? Spoiler alert: to today’s users, it’s the latter, so that’s where the effort and resources go. Whatever the state of the company, it has evolved to get here with demonstrable success in doing so. Continuing evolution will likely be more of the same with maybe a sprinkling of AI added whenever that works and is demanded by the market. “It just works” has become “It just sells.” That can be upsetting to those with expectations of before but they are in the rapidly diminishing minority.

As @crococarbs mentions, ******tification is a real thing, a real trend, and Apple is not exempt.

Ask a GenZ if they’re happy with macOS System Settings today. You’ll get a blank stare that says WTF are you talking about (Boomer)? Similarly most of the other “issues” discussed herein.

As a GenZ, I can support that most would respond that way. As a Apple nerd though, I'm gonna say no. It's confusing to have a settings app that's half iOS and then still have most of your settings be in the menu bar of each app. Took me a bit to learn when I first used a Mac. If you're gonna slap iOS on the system settings just go all the way with it.

 

[thefourthpope]

Too structured like a response to an excellent OpenAI prompt.

The question of whether consumers should pay additional money for software that is irreducible tied to the hardware they’ve already purchased is a good one, but seems largely settled by the market.

Expensive hardware, free software has won. Not always the best for everyone.

 

[Johnstrass2]

I believe the quality started slipping soon after Jobs passed and then Forstall got kicked out. They were the ones who gave a hoot about the user experience. Then soon after Apple Silicon arrived and the rate at which new hardware was pushed out increased thereby lowering the amount of time developers had to get work done. Instead of every 18 months it was now every 12 sometimes less. So software lost its two main QA guys then the output cycle got ramped up so naturally quality is going to drop. It is now falling off a cliff.

Yes. Jobs wanted devices that made a user feel good. Who cares about more bells and whistles if one must endure frustrations. I used to be an automatic up grader, but now I wait for the next .1x release. Then again that one is often buggy ….

While we are at it, why does Apple keep adding more buttons to the devices?

 

[BillyJoeJimBob]

I would pay a lot of money for a stable, professional, and clean DAW-oriented MacOS and iOS that allows me the option to completely tune or uninstall any app, service, sticker, or emoji. The first things I would remove: Siri, Notification Center, Chess, Dictionary, News, Weather, Tips, and TimeMachine. In iOS, Apple's first priority (even over AI development) is the stupid "Whooop!" sound when sending a text. Indeed, let me remove any sound I want, no matter how "deep-level and important" it is to the OS/iOS. Also, I would get rid of those creepy memoji avatars.

Apple could at least sell an OS that has a deep, fully editable interface. It could even have a catchy old name: MacOS Spartan.

 

[chmania]

Apple’s Darwin OS and XNU Kernel Deep Dive Quite interesting!
Long read, but read all the way to the end.

 

[RedWeasel]

Apple’s Darwin OS and XNU Kernel Deep Dive Quite interesting!
Long read, but read all the way to the end.

Thanks. I still find it a bit sad that there isn't much official documentation from Apple in regards to these topics, as compared to Linux and even Microsoft (where you get a 2-volume "Windows Internals" book with more than 1600 pages).

 

[hgfjhbvytjdnb]

Spoiler: LONG post

Doc: How much adderal do you need?
MG: ALL OF IT!!!!

 

[chmania]

Thanks. I still find it a bit sad that there isn't much official documentation from Apple in regards to these topics, as compared to Linux and even Microsoft (where you get a 2-volume "Windows Internals" book with more than 1600 pages).

There even few people trying to create an OS using the open source Darwin. Because they love macOS...

 

[RedWeasel]

There even few people trying to create an OS using the open source Darwin. Because they love macOS...

View attachment 2583365

I’m not sure how useful this would be without all the Apple frameworks.

I’ve followed both the PureDarwin and GNUstep projects like 20 years ago, and while they are interesting from a technical point of view, they are nowhere near the usability of macOS.

 

[mwhite]

Apple employees have become fat, lazy, and entitled. Especially from the pandemic onwards.

Apple the company has become greedier and greedier.

 

[chmania]

I’m not sure how useful this would be without all the Apple frameworks.

I’ve followed both the PureDarwin and GNUstep projects like 20 years ago, and while they are interesting from a technical point of view, they are nowhere near the usability of macOS.

It'd be interesting to see how far it would go. Its main developer is a girl from Canada, Zoë Knox.

 

[whatnot]

While we are at it, why does Apple keep adding more buttons to the devices?

there's a useless touch ID one, but where's the power button on my MBP? oh yeah, just lock the screen when cleaning your 2k machine, but be careful!

 

[zarathu]

So I’ve read through a lot of this thread. Nowwhere is anyone specific about the software they are complaining about. If it's the OS, even 25 years ago I never bought into the new system until it was on the .6 derivative.

I don’t have any software that doesn’t work. Please be specific. I started with an apple II. I’m currently using a Macbook Pro M4Max 48gb.

 

[MBAir2010]

So I’ve read through a lot of this thread. Nowwhere is anyone specific about the software they are complaining about.

I guess we skipped my 3 post are about the perils of Tahoe, which is a OS and perhaps software as a whole.

Tahoe is 's Waterloo as my Mac mini and MBA m1 experienced 17 problems everyday.

as you are correct, specifics are rare seems nowadays,
to me we complain with out a reason whywe are compiling about!

 

[Circa1984]

How often do you have to reboot iOS due to software glitches
Or freezes? How often to apps fail to work properly (although that responsibility falls on the app developer)? How many ‘blue screens’ of death do you experience? When you keep iOS running does it slow down until it is excruciatingly slow to use? How long does it take to ‘boot up’ iOS … or a modern MacOS running on Apple Silicon? How many hours does it take to setup a music studio connecting all the various 3rd party software and hardware devices and have everything work flawlessly? If you want to see shxtty, broken software (and full of ads) you are free to switch to Windows and Android!

 

[Abydos]

How often do you have to reboot iOS due to software glitches
Or freezes? How often to apps fail to work properly (although that responsibility falls on the app developer)? How many ‘blue screens’ of death do you experience? When you keep iOS running does it slow down until it is excruciatingly slow to use? How long does it take to ‘boot up’ iOS … or a modern MacOS running on Apple Silicon? How many hours does it take to setup a music studio connecting all the various 3rd party software and hardware devices and have everything work flawlessly? If you want to see shxtty, broken software (and full of ads) you are free to switch to Windows and Android!

not quite precisely, but the general case of ' why aren't you coddling me or solving my problem' that is prevalent in many endeavors. at the risk of being rude (sexist or whatever) I think the appropriate response is ' grow a pair' , buy (or develop) the best solution you can and live with 'there are no perfect solutions'

 

[Mrbiggestman]

How often do you have to reboot iOS due to software glitches
Or freezes? How often to apps fail to work properly (although that responsibility falls on the app developer)? How many ‘blue screens’ of death do you experience? When you keep iOS running does it slow down until it is excruciatingly slow to use? How long does it take to ‘boot up’ iOS … or a modern MacOS running on Apple Silicon? How many hours does it take to setup a music studio connecting all the various 3rd party software and hardware devices and have everything work flawlessly? If you want to see shxtty, broken software (and full of ads) you are free to switch to Windows and Android!

In the first few Dev betas of ipadOS 26.0 i use to have resprings often but now in iPadOS 26.2 beta 3 its a whole lot less often. now most of the bugs are UI based or I push my ipad to its limit which causes it to respring.

 

[Andy_2341]

there's a useless touch ID one, but where's the power button on my MBP? oh yeah, just lock the screen when cleaning your 2k machine, but be careful!

That is also the power button. Just use a finger that isn't set up for Touch ID and hold it there till the Mac turns off. Aside from that, touch Id is rather helpful imo

 

[noblesoul117]

The nutshell: Apple is what it is and as long as consumers buy into it, it will remain so.

I think this is why the 2024 Siri mishap is such a positive thing in the long run. They’ll never make that mistake again (at least for a decade lol) and the response has cornered them into toning down on shiny object syndrome and honing in on long-term quality.

With the rumor that 2026 will be focused on Snow Leopard refinements, I think the consumers have had a useful impact.

 

[chmania]

Just use a finger that isn't set up for Touch ID and hold it there till the Mac turns off.

Oh, you can use the finger that's set up for Touch ID as well—just press the power button and hold it until the Mac turns off. After all, that's why it's called the power button.