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New Get A Mac Ad: Stuffed

swingerofbirch said:
I get what they are saying--you definitely have more control on the Mac, in terms of just being able to throw away the couple of trial programs that come with a Mac into the garbage. On the PC, there are often multiple programs installed to handle one thing, like a wireless connection, or competing antivirus programs running at the same time by default.

However, to be entirely fair, you could buy a PC without ANY software (no OS), or buy one with Linux, which is not something you could do with a Mac. However, I realize that they are referring to the majority of home PC buyers, but like I said, just to be fair.
Click to expand...

That's true, although as you said, they're referring to the majority of home PC buyers here, and specifically, the people buying Windows-based PC's.

The fact that the only solution in some cases would be to buy an OS-less PC or one with only Linux installed is probably an indication of what the fundamental problem is. This issue of craplets and crapware affects the people buying the majority of Windows-based PC's, not the kind of people getting Linux PC's or OS-less PCs.
 
i had to vote negative.

my macbook pro came with at least 3 pieces of trial software. i got rid of them witha reinstall..but still.
 
I've had to reinstall on my powerbook and iMac using the supplied disc specifically to take out all trial components. I don't use or want to use iChat, iTunes, iWork, QuickTime, etc...

Update still thinks these components are there, that's annoying.
 
Printer Drivers & Languages

Maxx Power said:
Update still thinks these components are there, that's annoying.
Click to expand...

I didn't notice this till you pointed it out - thats a bit lame. The first thing I get rid of is the stupid amount of space used up by the Printer Drivers. I think you save about 1GB of space if you re-install OS X without the drivers

F
 
Surreal said:
i had to vote negative.

my macbook pro came with at least 3 pieces of trial software. i got rid of them witha reinstall..but still.
Click to expand...

Again, I think you're missing the point though. The trial software on your MacBook Pro did nothing but take up space. This isn't just about the presence of the trialware/crapware itself, but the impact it has on system performance.

A Windows PC loaded down with trialware and crapware not only has the space taken up, but they also take up system memory, CPU usage, etc. until they are removed. System performance suffers, startup and shutdown takes longer, etc.

That is the real point.

-Zadillo
 
Stella said:
Yes, I am comparing the two. I would not say that OSX application removal is 10x better. Overall, in most part, I would say OSX app removal is quicker and easier. Not perfect.

Like I said, when you remove an application on OSX ( delete the icon in the Finder ) you still don't delete the other files from Applicationpreferences, Application Support under /Library and your home directory. YOU have to do that manually, and the vast majority of Mac users won't know about this. You will have a lot redundant files hanging around.

A lot of unix applications do have a hidden directory or file(s) - for example:

.MyApplication

which stores user information and stuck in the root of your home directory.

If you do an:
ls

in the terminal these files are not shown. They aren't shown in the finder. You have to do a
ls -a

Try it in your home directory in a terminal:
ls -la


How many of these . directory / files do you have?

I have a lot - but then I use a lot of *nix type apps. They don't get removed if I remove the associated application, for example, Eclipse IDE.

OSX application removal is not perfect, not by a long shot. A lot of OSX applications don't have uninstall applications so your going to have a lot of redundant files / directories hanging around... just like in windows.. unless you remove them yourself - which is time consuming. However, fortunately under OSX you tend not to get the dependency of shared DLLs etc like in windows - there's a lot of shared libraries in say, iLife or the Pro Apps.

The registry in windows is bad and hideous. It gets bloated up and you either use a cleaner app or trim it manually to reduce the size.
Click to expand...


Registry has its uses, makes centralizing configurations more collective and easier. You can count on most settings to be found in the registry. As a downside, ill-designed softwares can bloat your registry.

BUT, for windows, the entire install disc is highly customizable. nLite for example, does just that, it can trim XP's fat 650 MB to 140 MB (for me) by taking out applications, drivers (ones you don't need), support for useless and legacy hardware, then integrating latest patches and up to date drivers, then perform unattended install, and configuring a bunch of settings before even setting up XP. Then an ISO is made for you, from which you can either use an USB device to boot it, or burn it to CD and keep that copy with the drivers and settings you specifically want for that machine.
 
Zadillo said:
I think some people might be missing the point of the comparison here.

When we're talking about bloatware here, it's not so much about things that just take up hard drive space, etc.

On the PC side, something like the MS Office trial isn't necessarily so annoying.

What people are talking about here are all the other annoying programs and services that are installed on top of the standard Windows install; trial programs, little custom services, stuff like the WildTangent game stuff on HP's, etc.

This stuff IS annoying and does negatively affect the Windows experience. All you have to do is look through forums to see tons of people asking how to remove all this crap, how to do a clean install, etc.

That's another big area here; with a number of PC's, you CAN'T easily do a clean install of just Windows by itself. With Sony, for example, you can only make recovery disks that recover the original Windows installation plus all the extra crap. They make it pretty hard to do a real clean Windows install (it's possible, but requires getting a bunch of drivers yourself and doing a clean Windows install with another Windows disk, not the one Sony makes available).

At least on the Mac side, if you buy a new Mac, you can easily use the included CD to do a completely fresh install and uncheck any elements you don't want (Office trial version, iWork trial, iLife, etc.).

On the PC, these often aren't just things that take up space on the hard drive; they're also programs that start up in the background when you boot up, dramatically adding to the startup times (I was just in a Circuit City yesterday and overheard a customer asking why the HP laptop they were looking at was taking so long to boot to the desktop and actually become useable).

The Circuit City guy told this customer about how they offer one of their special "Firedog" services just for the sole purpose of removing all the crapware, etc.

Some companies are better about this than others; but the vast majority of PC's being sold today, especially the consumer models, are loaded with this crap.

Microsoft themselves refer to these programs as "craplets" and don't like them either, because people associate the bad user experience with Windows itself, and don't realize it is the extra junk.

This isn't about things like the MS Office trials on PC's, or bundled stuff like MS Works which are not specifically annoying, and also can be easily removed. It's not even about something like the 30-day trial of Norton Antivirus, which at least on the PC serves a useful purpose.

It's about all the other irritating trialware and crapware that is loaded on there.

-Zadillo
Click to expand...

Every PC that comes with a MS OS has a OS license key. If the original installer media did not come with your computer, you can always download one (legal if you have the key), request one from MS, or obtain one from a friend, install it using your own key, and bypass all the trial/vendor-specific software on the computer.
 
Maxx Power said:
Every PC that comes with a MS OS has a OS license key. If the original installer media did not come with your computer, you can always download one (legal if you have the key), request one from MS, or obtain one from a friend, install it using your own key, and bypass all the trial/vendor-specific software on the computer.
Click to expand...

That's true, although some vendors make that much more difficult, due to driver issues. You need to get the various drivers, etc. specific to your computer as well, especially with a laptop.

Either way, the point here is the experience you get when you get the new computer and bring it home.

Yes, you could buy a PC, get a clean Windows XP install disc, download the additional drivers you need and install them, etc. But that isn't what this is about.

This is about the experience the average person deals with when they go down to the store or order a computer online and get it home and boot it up.

Technical people can certainly deal with some of these issues, but the point is that the issue has to be dealt with at all.

I think it's kind of funny that Microsoft themselves sees this as more of a serious issue than some of the people here do. Microsoft knows that it isn't a viable response to say "Oh, you don't like all the crapware slowing your PC down? Just get a new OS install disc from us and spend some time doing a fresh install and install the drivers you need yourself". They realize that this has become a major problem on the PC side, and that most of the people buying PC's don't know how to deal with it.
 
Zadillo said:
That's true, although some vendors make that much more difficult, due to driver issues. You need to get the various drivers, etc. specific to your computer as well, especially with a laptop.

Either way, the point here is the experience you get when you get the new computer and bring it home.

Yes, you could buy a PC, get a clean Windows XP install disc, download the additional drivers you need and install them, etc. But that isn't what this is about.

This is about the experience the average person deals with when they go down to the store or order a computer online and get it home and boot it up.

Technical people can certainly deal with some of these issues, but the point is that the issue has to be dealt with at all.

I think it's kind of funny that Microsoft themselves sees this as more of a serious issue than some of the people here do. Microsoft knows that it isn't a viable response to say "Oh, you don't like all the crapware slowing your PC down? Just get a new OS install disc from us and spend some time doing a fresh install and install the drivers you need yourself". They realize that this has become a major problem on the PC side, and that most of the people buying PC's don't know how to deal with it.
Click to expand...


I guess that computer literacy is the key then. Doesn't matter if you are using a Mac or PC, if you are computer literate enough to make good use of your computing tool, then you are competent enough to not have any of these problems.
 
Maxx Power said:
I guess that computer literacy is the key then. Doesn't matter if you are using a Mac or PC, if you are computer literate enough to make good use of your computing tool, then you are competent enough to not have any of these problems.
Click to expand...

That's fine to have that attitude, but the reality is the same regardless. By your standards, a lot of people who buy computers these days are not competent enough to not have any of these problems.

I don't think that's really a satisfying answer though. Do we really say "OK, we've got this product that most people use now, but most of them aren't computer literate enough to specifically know how to do a clean install of their OS or manually remove everything they don't need, while keeping the few bits of software they do still need for their computer to run"?

A lot of people these days buy their computers to browse the web, send e-mail, write some letters in their word processor, listen to music, etc.

Admittedly we could have a long discussion about the importance of computer literacy, but either way, the reality is that for a lot of those people, the experience is marred, and they aren't going to have the expertise themselves to deal with it.

You can either take the attitude of "You just aren't competent enough to solve these problems so you should put up with them" or "We should take a look at what is being sold and maybe try and make a better experience for those people without having to learn what every little service and program does and what to remove and how to remove it".
 
MacboobsPro said:
My MacBook came with an MS Office Trial I had to delete. So did my cousins iMac. :rolleyes: Funny though!
Click to expand...

Let's not forget the several GBs of iWork as well.... this one advertising endevour I don't like. How Apple can claim to be holier than thou when they do they same thing I don't know. Also, I find Windows easier to remove apps from... at least most uninstall runs remove the litter of unrequired folders buried throughout the system....
 
From the Wallstreet article noted in an earlier post...

"The worst was a desktop icon called "Watch Hit Movies Now!" This turned out to be four full-length films from Sony's movie studios, which the company had preloaded onto my computer at the cost of more than four gigabytes of precious hard-disk space. But they aren't a gift. If you want to play them, you have to pay Sony."


This would be like Apple loading hundreds of songs (if not more) that take more than 4 GB but not let you listen to it until you bought them from the iTunes store!
 
jacobj said:
Let's not forget the several GBs of iWork as well.... this one advertising endevour I don't like. How Apple can claim to be holier than thou when they do they same thing I don't know. Also, I find Windows easier to remove apps from... at least most uninstall runs remove the litter of unrequired folders buried throughout the system....
Click to expand...

Again, because it isn't JUST about the amount of space the trial and other crapware software takes up.

On the PC side, it also seriously impacts the performance of the system as a whole.

We're not just talking about the stuff like the MS Office trials, etc. We're talking about all the crap that they install that isn't just on the hard drive, but is also actually running in the background on the typical PC. It makes things take longer to boot up and shut down, it eats up CPU and memory, etc. You can see this on just about any PC currently being sold by Gateway, HP, Sony, etc.

Apple can be "holier than thou" here because they don't install a bunch of crap that runs in the background and that has to be removed just to get the computer to perform as it should.

Why do you think Dell advertises one of the "features" of their XPS line as the lack of bloatware? Why do you think Microsoft is so pissed off about this stuff, and has dubbed these things "craplets"? Why do you think PC forums are full of people looking for advice on doing clean installs of Windows or other ways to remove the extra crap that slows their PC's down?

Seriously, really, this isn't just about having some trial software on the hard drive - those things don't cause any problems beyond just taking up space. This is about the actual crapware that is preinstalled and active and running in the background. Sony and HP computers in particular are notorious for this.

It is true that Add/Remove Programs generally works on Windows, but the big problem in some cases is actually navigating the Add/Remove Programs section of a PC you buy these days from HP or Sony, etc.

Generally speaking, they are full of all sorts of crap, and it can be pretty difficult to tell which programs can be removed safely, which ones are needed by the computer, etc.

-Zadillo
 
New Apple Ad idea

"PC" is standing at an airport boarding gate and he keeps looking at his watch and muttering, "Where is MAC? I wonder why he is so late..."

The gate attendant announces, "Last call for boarding now."

After a couple more glances at his watch, he says--
"And he always blames ME for being late all the time..."

"Where is Mac now? He PROMISED he would be here on time..."

PC boards the plane and the ad cuts to the plan taking off...
with no Mac.

:(
 
sboyack said:
"PC" is standing at an airport boarding gate and he keeps looking at his watch and muttering, "Where is MAC? I wonder why he is so late..."

The gate attendant announces, "Last call for boarding now."

After a couple more glances at his watch, he says--
"And he always blames ME for being late all the time..."

"Where is Mac now? He PROMISED he would be here on time..."

PC boards the plane and the ad cuts to the plan taking off...
with no Mac.

:(
Click to expand...

Would you prefer that Apple stripped features out of Mac OS X 10.5 (as MS did with Vista) just to get it out (even late)?

Frankly I'll take a delay in Leopard and all the planned features, versus a delay in Vista even without all the planned features.
 
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