Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products

[charlituna]

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

 

[chevyorange]

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

I disagree that they are just “fads” but even if they are those fads make Apple (one of my favorite companies) a LOT of money.

There are companies I don’t like but I don’t hope for their demise.

 

[kdarling]

It would only mean that Apple would have to manufacture things in the States.

I don't think Apple can get Americans to work long days for $50-$100 a month, even with dormitory room and board.

Either their profit would have to drop drastically, or the prices go up.

Apple is alleging that Nokia wants access to Apple's patents as well as the royalties. That doesn't exactly seem like "the same fair and non-discriminating terms that everyone else in the industry uses".

Doesn't matter what Apple claims happened in the past, although I certainly agree that UI patents should not have to be part of any deals.

Nokia has asked for a Delaware jury to determine fair terms.

Nothing I have seen says that Apple has ever disputed what Nokia is due financially.

Sure they have. Moreover, in their countersuit Apple disputes many of Nokia's patent claims, and thus say they shouldn't have to pay royalties on them.

So they're not just balking at "fair terms", they're claiming they shouldn't have to pay at all for many items that others pay for.

 

[aucl]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

aren't there any "i hate fanboys" and "fanboys only" threads here?

 

[KnightWRX]

Nokia, the NEW PSYSTAR!

How do we know Apple is using Nokia's patented ideas? I mean, Apple has a boatload of patents, why can't they say, "see in this patent is where we take this technology from" and not from anything Nokia came up with?!

Otherwise, how many patents has Nokia abused of Apple's technology?

Apple, Bring It!

If I had a Nokia product to trash, I'd do it! Now Nokia is on my no fly list!

Except for the fact that Apple says in its filings in the court case that they have been in negotiations with Nokia for over 2 years now to license these patents.

Nokia is not a new Psystar, if anything, it's Apple that is improperly using someone else's intellectual property here.

This isn't black and white. Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).

Nokia isn't a bad guy, Apple isn't a good guy and reverses aren't true either. This is just 2 corporations that didn't see eye to eye on licensing issues and couldn't find common grounds in 2 years of negotiations. Now they're going to have the courts decide. This is precisely why there are courts and a justice system.

 

[fat phil]

Why have NOKIA suddenly decided all these patents are so important now, two and a half years after the first iPhone was launched…?

It seems obvious to me why have left it so late to file against NOKIA. Because Apple was never interested in suing NOKIA in the first place. Apple are just using their patents to defend themselves.

In short Apple to me they seem far more concerned about competing in the marketplace than the courtroom. NOKIA, well their motives seem less clear cut.

No doubt this statement will be construed as being in someone controversial and worthy of debate. To be it's obvious to anyone with a fair mind.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

1. Nokia and Apple have had dialogue over this for some time, the filings follow the failure to come to an agreement. Nothing new to see here - industrial fencing over technology. You show me yours and I'll show me mine otherwise I'll take you to court and get yours the hard way or at least some of it boo hoo.

2. All companies love throwing the patent stick, and all the big corps have patent targets each month - you can make a nice bundle in bonuses if you have a good imagination. Apple are no different to anyone else in this area.

3. Not really.

 

[charlituna]

If I'm not mistaken, Apple has a history of losing these kinds of battles. The first one that comes to mind is the Creative UI lawsuit but there have been others.

Apple didn't lose. they settled out of court because they weren't getting anywhere and neither was Creative. it was all he said/she said and in the end it was easier to just toss some money at Creative to shut them up and get back to work. and Creative was happy with that.

similar things have happened with other cases as well, Apple hasn't actually 'lost' as many cases as it might seem.

 

[.:R2theT]

Sure they have. Moreover, in their countersuit Apple disputes many of Nokia's patent claims, and thus say they shouldn't have to pay royalties on them.

(Did you read these lawsuits before posting?)

Well you are correct that I didn't read every single word(big swaths for sure). But would you agree that at the point where you are going to court to contest some aspect of patent negotiations, as a lawyer, you would try to contest even the viability of those patents? That has been my limited experience with any type of countersuit, whether or not it is in regard to patent law.

 

[wronski]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

Ever think the real fads are things like, hmm, I don't know, Blu-ray?

 

[*LTD*]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

Apple's fads have this weird way of becoming permanent, standard-setting products. Like Macs. Like OS X. Like iPods.

Apple's about to set new sales records this quarter with their iPhone "fad", the "fad" that the also-rans are trying to copy furiously.

 

[sjo]

so since you are so smart, explain why nokia now adds some more patents in a second step if it all was talked about for years already.

Because that is the patent policy of Nokia. They don't build patent portfolios in order to prevent other companies from doing business. The cellular telephony standards work in such a way that companies in the business come together, contribute their research in to the standard and for their contribution, they get cross licensing deals and can use the technology for free.

If someone from outside the industry comes in, hasn't contributed anything in the standardization process, but those players are still allowed to use the technology, but they need to pay for the contributions other companies have made. Apple chose not to.

Simple as that.

The other possibility would be that such deals would not be offered to companies outside the standardization effort. In that case Apple wouldn't even make a mobile phone. Ever.

Note that Apple chose to suit Nokia for patents that have nothing to do with the cellular standards. For those kind of suits Nokia answers in a way their patent portfolio allows: self-defence.

If you actually cared to look how Nokia functions, this would be very clear to you.

 

[charlituna]

Nokia certainly owns the patents but who knows if Nokia is asking unfair prices like Apple says or if Apple is simply trying to get a cheap ride.

I"m sure you are well aware that Nokia doesn't own ALL the patents and has been sued themselves over royalties and such and actually gave up ownership of some applicable patents to Qualcomm. And part of that collection of lawsuits was unreasonable price hikes by Nokia for key patents for GSM.

 

[aucl]

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

maybe we would have something faster, that needs less power, if someone else would have had one more time for research.
maybe mobile phones would work as data networks from the beginning, sip/VoIP like, ...

 

[MacBram]

I've been following this for awhile (like many of you) and the latest claim by nokia seems a bit ridiculous - are the ITC going to rule against an American company in the home of capitalism?? And it seems like both parties are blowing smoke now.

But I do agree that apple should pay a fair amount if found they do infringe on the GSM technology patents, as from what I've read from previous posts/articles the rest of the mobile industry are paying nokia for use of thier GSM tech, why are apple so special in not paying?!

But what annoys me most is that Nokia think in reperation for any infringement on Apple's part they should have access to iPhone patents when at best they should recieve and fair compensation package i.e. a wedge of dollar.

No, this is not the way I read it at all. I read that Apple HAS been paying the licensing for all the patents that are part of the open pooled standards and has been paying the same rate as everyone else; whether this is through the component parts that Apple is sourcing, or it is through separate licensing payments directly to the standards bodies that manage the patents for the individual companies holding the patents, I don't know. Apple would be foolish not to, this is good business practice and Apple do not think they are special.

What seems to be happening is that Nokia decides that Apple is special and demands Apple to pay three times the rate of everyone else. Thus a patent license that is expressly termed "non-discriminatory" suddenly becomes discriminatory against Apple alone. Because Apple is successful and is eating Nokia's lunch, I presume.

Nokia seem to be asking Apple to fork over the difference between the normal rate for the licensing and what they demand that Apple pay over and above everyone else -- and that they are applying this extra retroactively back onto all previous iPhone sales!

Apple fully expects to continue normal licensing the same as everyone else and rightly protests the singling out and discrimination. Nokia blusters and says, well, there are other patents you have violated. Apple disagrees, and says, "prove it."

Apple points out that there are in fact private Apple patents that Nokia are violating; Apple has thus far kept quiet about this, but is forced to bring this up in its own defense. Apple is not discriminating against Nokia by mentioning these patents, because Apple never pooled them into a standard and does not allow anyone to license them.

Nokia know it is in violation of private Apple patents; that is why it has the audacity to demand that Apple hand over its private patents for Nokia to freely use. What cheek!

 

[ChazUK]

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Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

Why can't I make that statement? This isn't some hypothetical issue. The companies behind GSM have invested time and money into the tech and deserve some kind of reward if someone else wants to use it.

Also, please don't think I feel that Nokia are completely innocent. The Quallcomm suit was lost by Nokia but that has no bearing on the current suit between Nokia and Apple and doesn't make what Apple have done any more right.

 

[aucl]

The Finns gave us the first GSM phone call almost 20 years ago. You have a lot to thank them for. The very fact that Nokia still manufactures phones in Finnland, is AWESOME. I would die if I could buy a quality computer made in the USA still.

20 years?! time that gets royalty free!

 

[aegisdesign]

Did I not just recently read that Nokia and Microsoft were doing business together? Apple just passed WinCE in Market Share, Microsoft is not mentioned in any of the lawsuits (for now), Balmer is sneaky... Just to add some fuel to the thread

Microsoft is producing a version of Office for Symbian OS Phones. Nothing to do with the OS at all. Obviously MS realise there's money to be made in selling Office on the worlds largest smartphone platform though they've only really come round to the idea now that WinMo is haemorrhaging market share. Symbian has had QuickOffice for years already and it's free on most Nokia E Series business phones.

 

[Zoulou]

When a company needs to sue to protect themselves from the competition,

then it is time to die.
I have been the biggest Nokia fan, purchasing all the most performing Nokia up to the last comunicator then the Iphone arrived and I have been waiting for Nokia to perform again but it seems that the only reaction will come from the lawyers from Nokia
Too bad, no one from my company will ever buy a Nokia worldwide, they do not deserve it any more.

 

[aucl]

Because that is the patent policy of Nokia. They don't build patent portfolios in order to prevent other companies from doing business. The cellular telephony standards work in such a way that companies in the business come together, contribute their research in to the standard and for their contribution, they get cross licensing deals and can use the technology for free.

If someone from outside the industry comes in, hasn't contributed anything in the standardization process, but those players are still allowed to use the technology, but they need to pay for the contributions other companies have made. Apple chose not to.

Simple as that.

The other possibility would be that such deals would not be offered to companies outside the standardization effort. In that case Apple wouldn't even make a mobile phone. Ever.

Note that Apple chose to suit Nokia for patents that have nothing to do with the cellular standards. For those kind of suits Nokia answers in a way their patent portfolio allows: self-defence.

If you actually cared to look how Nokia functions, this would be very clear to you.

very nice written, but it was not the answer to my question.
if it was all in negotiation for some time, why didn't they mention all the affected patents from the beginning when filing a suit.

 

[cumanzor]

then it is time to die.
I have been the biggest Nokia fan, purchasing all the most performing Nokia up to the last comunicator then the Iphone arrived and I have been waiting for Nokia to perform again but it seems that the only reaction will come from the lawyers from Nokia
Too bad, no one from my company will ever buy a Nokia worldwide, they do not deserve it any more.

Ummm. First of, all companies sue to protect themselves from abusive behavior from competitors, including Apple.

What you are probably are trying to say is that Nokia is dying.... but they aren't... not yet at least.

 

[*LTD*]

Nokia's premiere smartphones are nowhere on the level of the iPhone. Nokia has been doing sweet f all for years now, squeezing every last penny they could out of their derivative, aging lineup. Nokia, the most "experienced" company in telco, the "Father" of mobile comnmunications, can't even compete with Android.

Then we see this:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/03/nokia-slashing-smartphone-lineup-in-half-for-2010/

Nokia is bleeding, and it's only going to get worse. What's sad is that they've chosen to litigate their way out of this situation instead of innovate their way out of it. And their timing with all of this speaks volumes.

 

[MacBram]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

What's lazy thinking is to take at face value any headline that states "so and so sues Apple over patent infringement, therefore they must have a case" .

What many are discussing (on an Apple site it must be said) is that there is likely more to it than meets the eye. Especially since Apple themselves are notoriously close-mouthed even when on the defensive. Apple "fanbois" get to defend the company that makes the products they love to use.

Bit of a challenge there: hardly close-minded; on the contrary, more of an opportunity for a bit of knight going out and defending his lady's honor sort of thing! Fanbois of other lesser companies, on the other hand, are a bit like flying monkeys who are sent out and told not to bother coming back unless they have someone's scalp! If you can't see that, you really are missing the whole meta narrative here. What can I say? Sigh.

Anyway, that there is some kind of backstory here in this patent battle is undeniable. Apple fanbois are trying to expose it, because their fair lady is too honorable to whine on her own behalf. Us fanbois get to exercise our minds and try to win over the very closed minds of those poor, enslaved minions of the darker sides who have Stockholm Syndrome and don't know it.

Now, no-one is saying "Nokia is bad", but let me tell you, their underwear aint white, and they aint no lady!

 

[inkswamp]

This seems to be the standard reaction of any "old" company when technology overtakes them. Remember back when the "old" media (newspapers, magazines, etc.) started suing new media sites for supposedly stealing their content by deep-linking and other such nonsense? We saw similar reactions from music and movie companies. That's where we are right now with cell phones. I wouldn't be surprised to see more long-standing phone manufacturers begin throwing lawsuits at newer competitors.

 

[aristotle]

That's right -- that's why pioneers in a field like this pool their patents into international standards in order to help encourage interoperable technologies and products.

As a pioneer, Nokia pooled it's patents, making them open for fair, non-discriminatory licensing at the same fair, reasonable rates for everyone. This is standard practice.

However, Nokia suddenly decided that Apple isnot part of the "everyone" who may license the pooled standards patents at the same non-discriminatory rates as everyone else. Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple alone (because they are successful presumably) and charge them THREE TIMES the going rate.

Oh, it doesn't stop there: suddenly they demand that Apple allow free use of Apple's own patented technologies as well! What cheek! These are private Apple patents that NEVER were part of any pooled standards put into the pot for everyone to license. Apple has not opened them up to anyone -- so it is not discriminating against Nokia.

Nokia has been the aggressor -- suddenly changing terms that were already established (and changing them for Apple alone). Apple has responded by pointing out the private patents that Nokia has violated -- over which Apple had previously been silent.

Who is the bad guy here?

Quoted for Truth. Nokia is trying to change licensing terms in order to export triple the amount of money as well as access to Apple's patents.

 

[sysiphus]

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Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

I'm inclined to agree (full disclosure, I do prefer Nokia phones to the iPhone...I typically carry an E66 or an E90. But that's really for another thread)