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Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products
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I call bullpucky on your nonsensical babble from your autonomous anti-fanboy.
as much as i can't stand staight up fanboy posts like comparing Nokia to PYSTAR or whatnot, you anti-apple trolls are just as annoying. learn to think for yourself
large companies don't usually steal from large companies purposefully, they have too much to lose. its easy when say MS steals from a small company, or Seagate stole from an MIT startup as was featured in the news today... because they don't have much ability to cause trouble, they'll be out of business by the time they ever recover damages.
This is clearly the case since Apple licenses all other patents for standards that are pooled in semiconductors that Nokia was refusing to offer them the same amount, as stated in the countersuit. You can't get around patent pools on a standard, you can't accidently stumble across patents if you implemented a standard - they are all clearly marked and identified in the documentation from the standards body. Apple knew full well 10 years ago what the patent fees under the FRAND licensing was supposed to be and I too would refuse to be extorted for greater revenue or cross licensing. FRAND does NOT require cross licensing which is what Nokia is demanding.
Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).
Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.
So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.
Wrong. Patents, as they have evolved, are fundamentally wrong. The entire patent system has become a disaster. I speak as an inventor. I refuse to use the patent system. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters is to also carry it through implementation and getting it to customers. The patent system as it now exists needs to be doused with gasoline and burned. We need to go back to a much more basic system of protections that only last a few years as well as no patents on software or life. The first is covered by copyright. The second should get no exclusive.
Cheers
-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
Save 30% off Pastured Pork with free processing: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
Note that this countersuit has nothing to do with GSM technologies. I'm just about 100% positive my MacBook doesn't use GSM. There's a possibility that one of Nokia's GSM patents indeed had a secondary use in non-GSM technology which the MacBook uses, but this would be a bit of a stretch (and would imply that far more than just Apple are infringing; Nokia in effect would be taking on the entire portable computing industry).
Other than "Nokia certainly owns the patents", I agree 100% here. And, of course, I'm talking only about the original GSM-related patent filings, not these other claims they dredged up in retaliation.
As far as Nokia owning patents: they do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Apple's products infringe. There are a few possible ways Apple's iPhone could not need the particular patents that Nokia holds:
1. They are using the technology to which the patent generally applies in a manner not circumscribed by the patent. As an example (and this is without knowing the specifics of the dispute), if Nokia had a patent on voice transmission over a modem and circuitry and Apple is using direct data transmission over the circuitry (bypassing the modem), then perhaps that use is not covered by the patent even though the circuitry is 90% identical to a covered device.
2. The patents are invalid in the particular use Apple is employing, due to prior art. Patents are broad and multi-faceted things; a patent may be upheld in one particular claim while not being upheld in a second claim. It is entirely possible that Nokia's particular patents have been upheld in some claims, but not in all, and that Apple has evidence of prior art for those other claims.
If I had to put money on it (well, if I did, I'd read Apple's claims and decipher it from there), I'd guess that Apple's patent disputes (because they do claim that some of the patents are invalid and/or inapplicable to the iPhone) center around an overly-broad interpretation of the claimed invention. Why? Because that's what the majority of patent disputes on well-established patents come down to.
All that having been said, it's silly to sit here with the little crumbs of details we have and declare Nokia to be an evil company worthy of a boycott, or start burning Nokia phones in effigy (which Nokia probably wouldn't mind so much ... every replacement phone you buy lines their pockets), or whatever. Wait until it all plays out in the courts, until the facts are completely aired, then draw your own conclusions based on facts rather than reflexive fanboyism.
At least the N900 will run some iPhone apps very soon. I wonder why that hasn't been mentioned here or on Engadget as I see a huge flame war coming... Stay tuned
It's not that much of a wonder really.
Exhibit A)
It's an Apple website with a forum full of fanboys
Exhibit B)
It's an American website. Any tech company outside the USA is obviously not worthy. Just look at the press Android gets even though Nokia still sells more phones in the USA than all the Android phones put together.
also i am a bit confused what takes Apple so long in the whole IM and telephony things, my guess is that iPhone does not have that kind of features cause of the history with ATT.
but i hope 4G and next ichat will bring that too
in the beginning that might not have been the really necessary features to start adding, but now it would be time
It's funny, because you don't point out any of the "fine details of the case" all you do is complain about the "fanboy drivel"
(the "drivel" actually adds more to this discussion and stays on topic more than you ranting and spouting jibberish). How about you take your own advice and if you don't have anything to add to the discussion then don't post at all. Also, no reason to make this post in a "huge number of threads" we understand you are a very bitter person (or at least come off as one).
oh btw, Apple good, Nokia bad
it would be so funny if they disable GSM by default and then sell it as a firmware patch for like 1$, then Nokia can take their 5cents for that patents.
ps: wasn't there something like that in the beginning with the MacBooks and Wireless N? ok probably something else, but would be a cool solution
If you want your tech toys not made in China, another good reason to buy Nokias--the high-end ones are made in Finland
the 8600 8800 i had came from china, they might not be technical high end, but prestige phones.
i guess all that "high-end" phones mentioned here are the ones sold that limited that they can manufacture them in their lab still
(for anyone who did not understood that: that last sentence was a joke)Ah, but it's lost something far more important: mind share. People don't yearn after Nokia POC burners any more. They want iPhones, or as close a facsimile as their chosen provider can muster. Where mind share goes, market share will generally follow. Nokia can read the writing on the wall as well as anyone else.
What happened, then, that caused Nokia to end up demanding not only more money from Apple than from other cell phone vendors, but also free and clear cross-licensing of iPhone patents?
Or, just perhaps, what Nokia is calling "fair and non-discriminatory" is not what Apple agrees to, which is why we need a third party (which IMHO shouldn't be the patent court system, but that's the venue Nokia chose) to arbitrate.
it would be so funny if they disable GSM by default and then sell it as a firmware patch for like 1$, then Nokia can take their 5cents for that patents.
ps: wasn't there something like that in the beginning with the MacBooks and Wireless N? ok probably something else, but would be a cool solution
That doesn't work. Reasonable patent royalties would be calculated based on the value the patent brings to the phone.
And you have to be really stupid to believe the crud your shovelling. The n900 has been available for about a whole week. At best they'll get 6 months lead time with a higher res display and camera. Thing is dozens of other phones have had higher res cameras and screens, they've not really turned out to be iPhone killers.
The most important thing about the iPhone is not a bullet point spec list, that's all the n900 has, and a second rate os to boot.
That goes double for the meamo tablets. They took a perfectly good linux and butchered i into a windows tablet edition b'stard offspring.
Apple has itself contributed to many open industry standards that are widely in use today. Things like Firewire, network printing protocols, etc. Another one that comes to mind is the H.264 codec for video; unless I am mistaken, Apple directly contributed to this. It is now part of the pool of patents managed by the MPEG group, as I understand it. This is an example of a technology that is governed by an open, non-discriminatory licensing arrangement, much like the GSM stuff Nokia has contributed to as a member of that group.
Why should people like Google have to develop and support and campaign for yet another good video codec that they would want others to get involved in and adopt. Why not use one that is already something of a widely used standard, or with the potential to be. So, Google would license this; in fact they have gone ahead and provided copies of their YouTube movies in this format in addition to Flash (a more proprietary "standard").
No-one is asking Google to innovate here. However, what if Apple suddenly decided to get all discriminatory on this upstart Google bunch, and all of a sudden demand that Google pay three times the going rate for MPEG4 H264 licensing? Like, "Google, dude, you've got like billions of movies out there, you must be like too successful; I think you ought to pay more than anyone else and we are going to count up like all the movies you have ever served, all over the world, ever; how do you like them apples now? You are toast, Google; all those billions you got in the bank from advertising all over them there patent-infringing movies, let's see you cough up. Yo, we own you!"
So, no, no-one is asking Google to innovate it's way out of this imagined predicament, because it is just not supposed to happen this way. You work on technology that you want to see widely adopted and put into standards, and you treat everyone reasonably and fairly and all the same in order to get them all to use your standard. That's the way the world turns. Except, now Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple because Nokia feels Apple is doing too well.
Now, the innovating part. The "innovate your way out" applies to PRIVATE proprietary patents. Technologies that SET YOU APART and DIFFERENTIATE you from your competition. Dude, how is Nokia setting itself apart from its competition? How is anyone, except for Apple? It's like everyone is copying Apple as fast as they can, hoping they don't get caught without a seat when the music stops! Apple hasn't really been calling out anyone over the violation of Apple patents (see what nice guys they are?). They didn't call out Palm.
But now Apple is on the defensive, and Nokia have the audacity to demand free use of private Apple patents -- BECAUSE Nokia know themselves to already be infringing upon those patents!
This has to do with GUI, user interaction, the software that predicts what selection you are trying to make, etc. Nothing to do with working with international open standards. You don't need this stuff to make a phone that works with all the carriers around the world. You DO need to license (fairly) the pooled standard GSM patents that allow you to make a phone that works for most people anywhere! Innovation doesn't apply when you are all trying to work to common standards, which one would think would be reasonably clear.
Nokia does not need the Apple patents to make a phone -- but they do need them to make one that people want!!! Sheesh.
but these numbers are cause of very outdated definitions of what really a smartphone is, does it need a cam? support (java) apps? heck, IMHO there is more to that. and i don't think there are 40% Maemos out there.
Interesting - Nokia are going for damages resulting from what it perceives is lost market share. No wonder Apple are fighting it - this could result in massive open ended settlement.
From Nokia's filing ;
73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone.
From Nokia's filing ;
73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone.
N900 = no Apple gestalt.
Whoever can't get that magical combination of Hardware+OS+Apps right is not going to go very far, no matter the specs. Apple has it nailed, and it shows.
Maemo tablets?? Never heard of them. Once Apple releases theirs these Momo or Mumu things aren't really going to matter anyway.
Nokia marketshare represents years of entrenchment and years of selling the same old same old. And we're seeing the results of it in Nokia's current downward slide, including their latest ludicrous claim.
You and I agree on OS X and its licensing model, etc. But I think we're going to be at odds for a while when it comes to mobiles.
If NOKIA's products were 3x better than Apple then NOKIA would be able to command to premium price for said products and their balance sheets wouldn't look like such a mess.
You're completely blind to Apple's value proposition.
No offence, but you must have a very simple, reductionist view of things if you can't see beyond bullet points and percentages.
Good stuff. Laugh out loud funny. Best post I've seen on here in a while.
Neatly highlights NOKIA's real problems as well.
but then the whole N% rule is nuts anyway!
cause people like me have an iPhone and use it as WiFi tablet, iPod, gaming device, and to check mails when on the road,
right, no calls etc. the only gsm use is for the mails and IM on the road,
so i guess after all is settled i should get back most of that license fee from nokia,
Well, Apple could just take 5 to 10 percent of its cash and slowly, slowly buy Nokia shares. At that point some people would start ******** themselves.
Oh get off your high horse. Of course there's going to be fanboys in a large number of threads. It's called MacRumors, Which in fact makes your post trolling.
Yes, you are right, no one knows the "fine details" yet and I don't think anyone has claimed to have them. This is simply a place where we are making conjecture based on what we know and what has been released to us. Everyone does it, even you have, because it's human nature. According to what we have read, it appears Nokia is trying to take advantage of a situation by overcharging for it's licenses compared to everyone else, which is in fact illegal.
So please, stop being the pot calling the kettle black.