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Originally posted by stockscalper
Wow, the itunes operating system is almost ready and just in time to be released with the fugly G5'S and new fugly AL PB's. This isn't the year of the Powerbook for Apple, it's the year of U G L Y ! Yes, Apple has finally made their operating system look worse than Windows, their laptops look like Gateway's and their desktops like dorm refrigerators.

Could someone please give this young man a make over. Obviously he is your a-typical, "I wouldn't know style if it hit me like a surface to air missile".

The G5's are industrial, sexy, and minimalistic. The Powerbooks are continuining the same tradition.

You may like fisher price, candy coated, loud, ostentatious, and straight out "tacky" hardware, but some prefer the more "mature" look.

You remind me of those type of people who buy funiture with curls, twirls and other crap that make it an eye sore, where as I prefer the clean straight lines of shaker style furniture that does away with the unnecessary frills and provides a clean, elegant finish.
 
Relaying from the other thread:

NOT sure if this is right, but I read it on the other thread and it's the best explanation yet:

Panther Build 7B81

First Number 7
Corresponds to the Darwin version.

First Letter B
Refers to which 'branch' of the Darwin code is used. IE as Darwin evolves there will be many different 'branches' after each major version. One branch is then selected as the base for the next OS and so further development occurs form said branch. During development they may well switch branches.

Second Number 81
Indicates build number. IE 81st version using Darwin 7 Branch B.
 
Re: Relaying from the other thread:

Originally posted by PHGN
NOT sure if this is right, but I read it on the other thread and it's the best explanation yet:

Panther Build 7B81

First Number 7
Corresponds to the Darwin version.

First Letter B
Refers to which 'branch' of the Darwin code is used. IE as Darwin evolves there will be many different 'branches' after each major version. One branch is then selected as the base for the next OS and so further development occurs form said branch. During development they may well switch branches.

Second Number 81
Indicates build number. IE 81st version using Darwin 7 Branch B.
Thank you for the explanation. I was WAY too lazy to go and check in the relevant threads...
 
I'm not sure about all this 3rd October stuff. I'm betting that they're way behind schedule and will release it on the 10th of March (10/3) to appease us Brits....

Seriously.

:D :D
 
Originally posted by Heltik
I'm not sure about all this 3rd October stuff. I'm betting that they're way behind schedule and will release it on the 10th of March (10/3) to appease us Brits....

Seriously.

:D :D
I think they'll have to do a LOT more then that to appease us Europeans (I know you said Brits, but I don't qualify).
iTMS - check
iPhoto prints - check
Sherlock - check (not really bothered though)

Oh well...
 
64/32 OSes

Windows 64 bit exists because th original 64 bit Intel processors could not run 32 bit code except in emulation, think Virtual PC to Mac OS X Carbon. So all of the code had to be rewritten for 64 bit. Panther's code is 32 bit, but luckily the G5 processor, like the new AMD procs runs 32 bit code natively with no to extraordinarily little loss of speed. Therefore no need for Panther 64.

And the pic was likelytaken on a French or other non English language localised beta hence the language gap (look at 'processor' as well)
 
Also…

If you want grey or shiny plastic, or perhaps a nice black placcy centrino laptop without a disc drive, feel free to buy from Dull and Sony etc. Apple's design may not always suit everyones taste, but it is light years ahead of everyone elses. So please stop going on about Aluminium. This is not a flame, just hoping, right? :)
 
Apple OS Upgrade vs MS

No report I've read yet is stating the obvious. Apple is trouncing Microsoft on timely & advanced & stable OS updates in an underlying multi-decade well developed stable OS kernal in a 64 bit multi-processor form. 10.2 comes out & then 10.3 is ready in less than a year. There are occassional stability issues like with this Ethernet bug of last week, but that is rare.

MS Long Horn is a longwayaway and MS is not sure when. I think MS has boxed themselves into a hole by attempting to keep most of their OS proprietary in a world where standardization eventually takes over. Jobs saw that and took advantage of Unix, where Gates was to scared to go!

Look at the automobiles of exactly a century ago where steering, throttles and brakes were accomplished with tillers, wheels, levers, pedals, and arms that were pulled, pushed and turned.

Automobiles today are so close on standardization that most any driver can get in almost any new car and drive it off in a minute or two after finding the slot for the ignition key. I think Apple is getting close to that point on its user interface.

I've watched older people who are obviously not using a computer much, if at all, come in my local Apple store and start to work the cursor in the Finder, and start to get the hang of working the Finder to open files & try things in minutes.

I will not be surprised to see Apple's market share jump quite a bit in 2004. Apple has hit it right for both new users who will just email and take photos and power users who need Production Output.

Bo Clawson
 
Originally posted by NicoMan
I think they'll have to do a LOT more then that to appease us Europeans (I know you said Brits, but I don't qualify).
iTMS - check
iPhoto prints - check
Sherlock - check (not really bothered though)

Oh well...

prices that don't subsidise US buyers - check

Let's compare a stock 17" Powerbook:
US Apple store (online): $ 2999,--
And to name few Euro prices (online):
German store € 3479,-- (VAT 16%) = US $ 3995
UK store GBP 2399,-- (VAT 17,5) = US $ 3983,--
Dutch store: € 3568,-- (VAT 19%) = US $ 4097,--
Belgian store € 3629,-- (VAT 21%) = US $ 4167,--

That's a European mark-up of about 33%. I checked G5's too - they take a 25% mark-up. Cross-Atlantic shipping must be very expensive... :mad:

Hey, when I give myself a budget of $ 1100,00 I can buy a ticket for me and my wife, from Amsterdam to New-York and check into a nice hotel for a few days. When I buy my PowerBook while I there, I can still save money! Seems like a nice way to surprise her :) .

BTW, Japanese store 379800,-- (VAT ?) US $ 3397,-- equals + 13% Hey, what would a ticket to Tokyo cost...

M.
 
Re: Re: Looking forward to new, old OS 9 feature.

Originally posted by groovebuster
Be careful with blaming everything just on Apple. M-Audio never really got their act together in writing actually flawlessly working drivers for their hardware under Mac OS X. Shall I tell you how long it took me to get a driver that finally gave me back my audiophile 24/96? And still I can't use the MIDI-Interface and I am using an extry USB MIDIman for that. Apple is maybe responsible for some stuff, but definately not for the flawed drivers by 3rd party vendors...

groovebuster

Yes, I'm being careful. I've heard from a couple of sources that Apple is working with M-Audio to solve this issue and it is because of the way Core Audio is written. I also know that my M-Audio driver isn't perfect: if I don't switch my buffer setting (at startup using Bias Deck), I get unexpected quits. It seems there's a problem with the MIDIserver (my initial troubleshooting left me with 5 MIDIserver processes running....switching the buffer, in effect flushing it, solved that problem....annoying & maybe a M-Audio driver issue). I'm very aware of who to blame for the problems I'm having (when I do finally place the blame)...the only difference is that M-Audio can be contacted and will respond to my needs (heck, they even released an updated driver for their Revolution sound card the day after 10.2.8 disabled it), and Apple is such the giant that they won't hear me shouting at them unless I have a chorus of thousands of other people shouting with me. (Sorry, I'm kinda jaded from my MDD Windtunnel issue.)
 
Re: Re: Wouldn't it be 7C81?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
..........
I just know that I'm not paying list price. Educational discounts and high-speed internet are the only redeeming qualities of going to college, let me tell you.

Either you need to go to a new college or you should quit going.
 
I'm not sure that the difference in pricing is Apple's fault. I don't think there is any sales tax paid in the states; shipping across state lines etc.

I compared UK price from Apple Store less VAT and the US prices; they're the same.
 
I'm not sure that the difference in pricing is Apple's fault. I don't think there is any sales tax paid in the states; shipping across state lines etc.

I compared UK price from Apple Store less VAT and the US prices; they're the same.

Well I partly agree with you I think that the prices on PBs are not 33% higher. If you buy over the internet - and I mean like Amazon but not Apple Store - you do get charged the state sales tax which can be anything between 5% - 9% with most states being around 8%. So the Price of a PB costs with sales tax in USA 3250 while in UK with an exchange rate of 1.6 costs 3850. That is 600$. However part of it it is attributed to the extra 10% on the price. Both prices without tax come at 2999$ and 3266. So Apple is actually charging 266$ or 166 pounds more. Given that PBs ship in UK from Ireland and in USA from Taiwan shipping is not it. However other sort of red tape in UK could increase the price.

End line monetarily the price is more expensive but not all of it can be atributed to Apple most of the difference is due to the extra 10% tax. Where things go sour is when you enter into the equation PPP. Then especially in poorer countries of EU like Greece the prices look impossible.....
 
Unless you want to use your memory

Originally posted by thedoc1111
Therefore no need for Panther 64.

Mac OS X 10.4 "Wildcat" will be 64-bit, though.

You need a 64-bit O/S to allow your programs to use more than 4 GiB of RAM.... With a 32-bit O/S, a single program can't use the 8 GiB that the G5 can support.
 
tyson12zoll:

what the %&*@ are you doing in these forums...

If you have a dual 2 shouldn't you be playing quake or solving world hunger or something? D

edit:

AidenShaw:

My understanding is as follows: a 32 bit os can only use 4 gigs of ram by itself, but a 64 bit app running on the same machine is not limited by the Os's 32bitnes and can use all the ram it wants.

someone please correct me if I am wrong
 
Originally posted by dho
tyson12zoll:


AidenShaw:

My understanding is as follows: a 32 bit os can only use 4 gigs of ram by itself, but a 64 bit app running on the same machine is not limited by the Os's 32bitnes and can use all the ram it wants.

someone please correct me if I am wrong

That is my understanding as well.
 
Re: Re: Re: Looking forward to new, old OS 9 feature.

Originally posted by crazytom
I've heard from a couple of sources that Apple is working with M-Audio to solve this [using two M-Audio cards at once] and it is because of the way Core Audio is written.

I take it your issue is getting the two cards to work in sync with each other (as one device rather than two)? It's not neccessarily a CoreAudio issue, but an issue of device timing. Getting two seperate devices synched isn't a particularly easy task, and CoreAudio was designed specifically to expose as much of the hardware to the programmer as possible while still providing a common, approachable interface to using that hardware. It is possible to use multiple audio devices at once from the same program - I've done it - it's just that the results may or may not be what you expect (due to device drift) and I'm betting the CoreAudio engineers didn't want to add something to the design that would saddle the rest of us with something unpredictable.

All that said, this has been an issue discussed since the beginnings of 10.2. It isn't an easy one to solve. But don't think of Apple as unapproachable on this. Filing bug reports is the quickest way to get their attention to a feature you want, or to helping them determine the priority of a feature that they are working on. Otherwise, they have to guess at priorities.
 
The 64-bit Issue

A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory. A 64-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 16 EB of memory. The Mac OS X build that is currently running on the PowerMac G5 (10.2.7) allows each program to access 4GB of RAM. This is because all of the pointers used in such programs are 32 bits. It also allows programs on this machines to use the full width of the G5's registers, and thus manipulate 64-bit integers without penalty.

Q: Why can't we just change the pointer size (to 64-bits) and get 16 EB memory spaces?

A: Because there is more to the change than just your code. Mac OS X (as all operating systems) provides you with a HUGE volume of precompiled code for your program to use. These libraries are necessary for your programs to even start running. And all of these libraries are built (currently) expecting 32-bit pointers. There is no way for these libraries to start dealing in 64-bit pointers without being recompiled.

Q: Ok, so we need to update our libraries. So lets just have them all just work with 64-bit pointers. Problem solved right?

A: No. Unfortunately, if you just change all your libraries to expect 64-bit pointers then your 32-bit programs will break when those libraries return a pointer that is out of range for them. So what you have to do instead is have two different libraries, one that handles 32-bit programs, and one that handles 64-bit programs, this way each kind of program gets the kind of pointers that it expects.

Q: Ok, so we need 2 versions of each library. So lets start cranking. Two weeks tops right?

A: Unfortunately no. When you create such an incredible additional mass of code, you need to test it. And testing it all takes a huge amount of time. It's hardly practical to expect it to happen quickly. Yes, much of Mac OS X was designed to be easily moved from 32 to 64 bits without much difficulty, but there are many edge cases where things don't quite work out of the box, either due to common usage of an API, or exceptional circumstance around that API.

For example, many APIs take a reference constant that is passed to a callback so the callback knows what context it is being called with. Unfortunately for some older APIs these reference constants are defined as 32 bit integers, but common practice has been to use them as pointers. So in moving to a 64 bit memory model, these APIs would need to be redefined to use 64 bit integers AND the programmers using them would need to check their code to make sure that they do the right thing when passing in the pointer (C/C++ doesn't allow you to pass a pointer as an integer without explicitly changing the data type. Code written for passing a 32 bit integer would thus clip your 64 bit pointers).

This is just one of many issues that would cause the testing time of new 64-bit libraries to take a LONG time. And before someone says it, no that doesn't make Carbon implicitly harder to move to 64-bit than Cocoa =). All of the newer, recommended Carbon APIs already use a pointer type for the reference constant instead of an integer :cool: .

Hopefully all this will clear up why it is a difficult task to add support for 64-bit memory spaces to an OS. Hopefully it has also put across that it should not be as difficult a task as it has been for that other operating system.
 
Re: The 64-bit Issue

Originally posted by Rincewind42
A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory. A 64-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 16 EB of memory. The Mac OS X build that is currently running on the PowerMac G5 (10.2.7) allows each program to access 4GB of RAM. This is because all of the pointers used in such programs are 32 bits. It also allows programs on this machines to use the full width of the G5's registers, and thus manipulate 64-bit integers without penalty.

Q: Why can't we just change the pointer size (to 64-bits) and get 16 EB memory spaces?

A: Because there is more to the change than just your code. Mac OS X (as all operating systems) provides you with a HUGE volume of precompiled code for your program to use. These libraries are necessary for your programs to even start running. And all of these libraries are built (currently) expecting 32-bit pointers. There is no way for these libraries to start dealing in 64-bit pointers without being recompiled.

Q: Ok, so we need to update our libraries. So lets just have them all just work with 64-bit pointers. Problem solved right?

A: No. Unfortunately, if you just change all your libraries to expect 64-bit pointers then your 32-bit programs will break when those libraries return a pointer that is out of range for them. So what you have to do instead is have two different libraries, one that handles 32-bit programs, and one that handles 64-bit programs, this way each kind of program gets the kind of pointers that it expects.

Q: Ok, so we need 2 versions of each library. So lets start cranking. Two weeks tops right?

A: Unfortunately no. When you create such an incredible additional mass of code, you need to test it. And testing it all takes a huge amount of time. It's hardly practical to expect it to happen quickly. Yes, much of Mac OS X was designed to be easily moved from 32 to 64 bits without much difficulty, but there are many edge cases where things don't quite work out of the box, either due to common usage of an API, or exceptional circumstance around that API.

For example, many APIs take a reference constant that is passed to a callback so the callback knows what context it is being called with. Unfortunately for some older APIs these reference constants are defined as 32 bit integers, but common practice has been to use them as pointers. So in moving to a 64 bit memory model, these APIs would need to be redefined to use 64 bit integers AND the programmers using them would need to check their code to make sure that they do the right thing when passing in the pointer (C/C++ doesn't allow you to pass a pointer as an integer without explicitly changing the data type. Code written for passing a 32 bit integer would thus clip your 64 bit pointers).

This is just one of many issues that would cause the testing time of new 64-bit libraries to take a LONG time. And before someone says it, no that doesn't make Carbon implicitly harder to move to 64-bit than Cocoa =). All of the newer, recommended Carbon APIs already use a pointer type for the reference constant instead of an integer :cool: .

Hopefully all this will clear up why it is a difficult task to add support for 64-bit memory spaces to an OS. Hopefully it has also put across that it should not be as difficult a task as it has been for that other operating system.

Snip nothing.

This should be in the FAQ.

Rocketman
 
word!

Originally posted by Freg3000
Ok. Reality check. 10.3 on 10/3 ain't gonna happen.

October 3rd is 6 days away. 6 Days. Although it would be a nice Apple touch, I just don't see it happening.
My best bet is 10-24.
2 weeks is typical RTM-to-shelf lag, and that's actually mass-production @ it's finest. If the date (10/03) was critical, like getting medicine to sick natives (which, BTW, this ain't), then a big (read: expensive) push could be made to get something on the shelves - just hope you're one of the lucky 3 in your town....

Seriously, from the sounds of things, it wouldn't surprise me if the GM was declared prior to 7B90.

'Course, it also wouldn't surprise me if Apple put enough rev's on it to release 7C01, just to mess with us. :D
 
Re: The 64-bit Issue

Originally posted by Rincewind42
A 32-bit operating system can give a single program, at most, 4GB of memory....

( remainder snipped )
Excellent work, sir!

Still, I seem to recall Apple announcing that Panther will be 32-bit not 64-bit, AND that the G5s would run a 64-bit RAM enabler (call it what you will).

I only mention this because your excellent post seemed to say that this wouldn't, couldn't or shouldn't be done yet. Or are you saying that the "enabler" is just some mutation of double-precision-style longword fakery?
 
vis-a-vis Shelf Lag

Is is not posible to announce the product and not have it actualy avalible right then and there? Not that Apple would ever dream of doing something like that. 2003.10.03 would make a great anouncement date, with delivery starting starting in time for the new Apple store's opening.

Further, if this does happen, can I go ahead and order my new Powerbook after the announcement and expect a set of 10.3 disks to arrive at some later date?
 
Re: Apple OS Upgrade vs MS

Originally posted by Burrell
No report I've read yet is stating the obvious. Apple is trouncing Microsoft on timely & advanced & stable OS updates in an underlying multi-decade well developed stable OS kernal in a 64 bit multi-processor form. 10.2 comes out & then 10.3 is ready in less than a year.

It's already been more than a year since 10.2 came out. It actually arrived a month earlier than planned. It came out in less than a year aftter 10.1. I think Jag actually sneaked in in late August.
 
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