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PowerSurging to Mac OS X 10.5.8: Power Macintosh 9600 fun

LightBulbFun

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not sure where exactly to post this but since the machine im using in the picture is the 9600 figured id throw it here

but those who have a Radeon 9200 Mac edition know the pain of, installing it and forgetting to install the drivers which will cause the machine will lock up just before the desktop loads

and while you can boot without extensions enable and the system boots up all the way, the driver installer needs extensions enabled! so its a little bit of a catch 22 situation

well if you boot up normally and then do a force quit when it locks up it will actually let you kill the offending extension and let the system finish loading :)

1592687842238.png

I found this out on my own a good while ago out of desperation :) but I realised when playing with my 9600 just now that I dont think I ever posted about it!

so yeah figured id post about it as its a handy way to get out of an otherwise annoying catch 22ish situation :)
 
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LightBulbFun

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I finally managed to get the 9600 to boot/play ball with Linux, sadly for some reason BootX would not play ball, the kernel would start to load but pretty quickly lock up

so I finally figured out how to work the iQuick Boot Loader as I said a couple years ago!

so i think ill put my arse into gear and figure out how to setup this boot-loader https://github.com/andreiw/iQUIK :) which is a yaboot type boot loader but for oldworld ROM machines (ie it boots directly from OF into the linux kernel, rather then linux chest bursting its way out of OS 9 like it does with BootX)

easier said then done, but I got there in the end, (well its not fully installed, I boot the boot loader from a floppy disk and manually tell it where and what kernel/initrd to load, but thats good enough for me LOL)

1592763178674.png


while it is better in that it boots directly from OF meaning you dont have to mess with or have OS 9 etc install

it does have a few downsides in that, not only is the OF of Old world machines quite buggy so thats part of the challange of getting it working

but with upgraded machines the L2 cache etc is not enabled in linux, since the OF obviously does not know what to make of the upgraded CPU and in this case linux gets its L2 cache info info from the OF device tree, compared to booting via BootX since it would be enabled by the CPU upgrade's extension in OS 9

and although not a 3rd party upgrade, this is also the case with the 604ev 8600/9600 since Apple never actually added support for the 604ev to the 9600's OF, they only added support for it to the Toolbox rom image

so that means when booting linux via OF on a 604ev system, i dont think the 1MB of inline L2 is used, and the system falsely reports 256KB of L2 which is erroneously reported in OF (its a remnant of the unpopulated motherboard L2 cache)

I think there are some kernel arguments you can pass to the linux kernel to enable L2 so ill have to look into those :)


next machine on the list to try this with is my Kanga as that also did not really want to play ball with Linux either via BootX so it will be interesting to see how that one does!

I actually dug out the 9600 to use to make the boot loader floppy to try and get the Kanga going, as I dont have a x86 PC with a working floppy drive! but of course while I had the 9600 out I thought it would be rude not to play with it :)

I also found on ebay and have ordered 7x64MB RAM sticks for the 9600 I look forward to those arriving should bump me up to 576MB of RAM from 192MB which will make things a lot more comfortable hopefully!

these RAM sticks are reportedly compatible with my Xemplar as well, so ill very much will be borrowing a couple to get that system up to its max of 128MB which should let me finally get OS X (and linux) onto it :) and hopefully finally after 5 years, test my patched tiger 60x CPU kernel on a 603(ev) system!

I would love a set of 12 128MB sticks to max the 9600 out but those have all vanished from the market sadly, and doing some googling showed 64MB sticks fast going in the same direction sadly, so although a Little pricey at £65 for the 7 I decided to pick em up, also because they where said to be compatible with my Xemplar so could serve dual purposes :)


I would also like to try the 4400 as well (that one actually did work with the BootX boot loader somewhat) but I need to reinstall its original 603ev CPU first! (I soldered a 740 to it, but that did not workout sadly I think I may have had a duff CPU)

and one of my PowerBook 3400's but those sadly dont have enough RAM to boot Linux, or OS X sadly
 
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LightBulbFun

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played with the boot loader some more now I got the hang of it

sadly the Kanga still wont boot linux, and displays more or less the same issues it does when using the BootX linux boot loader

in that if you boot without an initrd, it will load the linux kernel but the backlight will turn off, and it will just freeze

if you try and load it with an initrd and it just wont load the linux kernel properly and freeze


interesting thing for giggles I tried the same with the 3400 and while I dont have enough RAM to load an initrd, interestingly unlike the kanga I can load the linux kernel itself just fine and while the backlight turns off i can turn it back on again and then the system will actually proceed to kernel panic as expected when i dont give it an initrd, (the kanga never even panicked it just froze)

so it seems like the linux kernel has some sort of fairly low level issue with the Kanga which is interesting, given how similar the 3400c and Kanga are....

its a shame I dont have anymore ram for the 3400c, if anyone has a 128MB RAM card for one for sale please do let me know :)

will be interesting to see how it plays on the Xemplar once the ram arrives


as side note it would be very interesting to see how the iQuick boot loader plays on an ANS500/700 LOL, might actually be a decent way to get linux booting one of those seeing as you cant use BootX because they dont run classic Mac OS
 
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Appleuser201

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so as a few members already know

I have been trying to get a Power Macintosh 9600 for almost 4 years now

and finally that search has come to and end as recently I finally found one :)

my machine is a Power Macintosh 9600/300, from what I have been told it was an ex avid workstation, and interestingly it was made on the 5th of December 1998 according to its serial number sticker, making it newer then even most G3 beiges out there, it must of been one of the last 9600s apple made, according to the interwebs the 9600 was discontinued in early 1998 so go figure that one out :)

being a 300Mhz machine means it has a 604ev CPU with 1MB of 100Mhz inline L2 cache and as such it has a code-name Kansas motherboard which has the soldered L2 cache removed and control logic adapted to work with the Apple 604ev CPU cards, the Kansas machines are generally sought after more as they play better with CPU upgrades and the like (the Soldered 512KB of L2 cache on the older code-name tsunami boards can cause issues with G3/G4 CPUs)

as such I was pretty pleased to get a Kansas machine, (for those wondering, any Power Macintosh 8600 or 9600 that is 250Mhz or faster is a "Kansas" machine)

here is a backside picture of the 300Mhz 604ev CPU card from my 9600, worth noting is the "400Mhz" option apple never sold a 400Mhz 604ev System to the public but IBM did sell 400Mhz 604ev Chips, it would be interesting to know if there are any 400Mhz apple prototypes out there (the 2 QFP Motorola chips are 2 of 4 memory chips which make up the 1MB of inline L2 cache)
View attachment 790527

my machine came to me and is currently equipped with 192MB of RAM via 6 matching 32MB RAM sticks, the machine has a total of 12 RAM slots connected to the "Hammerhead" EDO/FPM memory controller, at some point I hope to get 12 128MB RAM sticks for it and max it out at a whopping (for 1995-1997 :) ) 1.5GB of RAM

now one of the main reasons I wanted to get a 9600 (aside for general shenanigans and the collection on account of how awesome they where back in the day with the 12 RAM slots 6 PCI slots and more CPU upgrade options then you could shake a stick at)

was to test the 2 major software things I had developed

that being my 604/603 10.4.11 tiger kernel project https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/os-x-tiger-on-a-603-604-cpu.1908276/

and a special image of 10.5.8 I built setup in a way that in theory would let someone boot 10.5.8 on a G4 upgraded Beige Mac, https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/power-macintosh-g3-beige-running-os-x-10-5-8-leopard.1937844/

while users @bunnspecial and @tevion5 where kind enough to test my special tiger kernel on their own 604e/604ev equipped machines for me, I have wanted to see my kernel running on actual 60x hardware with my own 2 eyes :)

and as for the Leopard image I put together, up until now I have only been able to test as far back as the G3 beige, and I have sadly not been able to find anyone to test it for me on anything older then a G3 beige

well im pleased to say that I was able to successfully test both on my new 9600 :)

here is a screen shot of tiger running on the 9600 with its stock 604ev CPU :) its worth noting that Apple never updated OpenFirmware on the 9600 to recognise the 604ev CPUs properly hence the "PowerPC 60?" as OpenFirmware does not know what to make of the CPU (With that line in System profiler on PPC macs being pulled from the Open Firmware device tree)

also despite the 9600 having a 50Mhz 60x bus OS X reports a 100Mhz bus because the CPU it self IS on a 100Mhz bus, as on the Kansas macs the CPU card contains a special CPU bus and inline cache controller named "brick" which takes the 50Mhz 60x main bus and then spits out a 100Mhz bus that the inline cache and 604ev CPU sit on. as this 100Mhz bus is an internal bus just for the CPU it self and the inline cache and does not extend to the motherboard, the CPU card still interfaces to the rest of the system via a 50Mhz 60x bus, but OS X reads the bus speed literally from the CPU POV rather then the systems POV so you end up with a fun little "anomaly" in OS X when running on a mac with a 604ev Apple CPU card :)

View attachment 790515


now for the proper juicy stuff,

I am pleased to say that I was able to boot 10.5.8 on my 9600 :D

I accomplished this via my custom leopard image and an Apple 350Mhz 7400 G4 ZIF Yikes CPU in an XLR8 "Mach carrier" Slocket, a card which plugs into a 7300-9600 CPU slot and lets you in turn use a ZIF G3/G4 CPU in those systems.

to make my life easier I fitted a Radeon 9200 GPU and an ACARD 6280M ATA133 PCI card with a 16GB CF card attached to it. (the card presents ATA drives as SCSI devices hence the SCSI icons on the desktop) the PCI ATA card+CF card combo allowed me to easily image OSs to the system and edit files on a modern system, and also fitted because the Stock 4GB SCSI HDD is sadly missing from my 9600

I have to say it was pretty awesome to see Leopard boot on a computer that came out in 1997 (with close ties to 1995, the 9600 is heavily based off of the 9500 which came out in 1995, to the point of using the same OpenFirmware image hence the "9500" in system profiler) but its interesting to note that my Main System today is a 2009 Mac Pro which it self is almost 10 years old which the 9600 was in 2007 when Leopard came out, but the 9600 was much more obsolete when it was 10 years old compared to my Mac Pro now at 10 years old. just an interesting thing to think about :)

also as you can see the bus speed here is properly reported as 50Mhz as the G4 CPU interfaces directly to the main system bus.

View attachment 790522

and heres a Lobo shot of my 9600 configured to boot 10.5.8 :) I plan to geekbench the system with various CPUs and OS X configurations once I get more RAM as Geekbench needs at least 512MB of RAM to run properly (the 9500/9600 has 2 separate "Bandit" 60x to PCI Bus controllers each driving 3 slots, giving you 2 PCI buses, allowing you to have 2 high speed devices without them fighting for PCI bus bandwidth)

View attachment 790547


and heres a bonus shot of the System in Mac OS 9.2.2 (this was taken when I just got the machine booted into an OS for the first time, and was done with the Stock IMS Twin turbo 128 video card hence the wonky video rez)

View attachment 790553

as mentioned I have been looking for a 9600 for years now and im very happy/excited to have finally acquired one :) I will continue to update this thread as I continue to tinker and experiment with it :)

and I hope you enjoyed reading this post :) (and free internet cookie if you get the title of the thread :D )
Thats really cool to see, could you try running Leopard only software like Webkit and newer versions of iTunes and iMovie and tell us how they run? Also I'd love to know how YouTube would perform on a machine made in 1996-1998
 
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LightBulbFun

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Thats really cool to see, could you try running Leopard only software like Webkit and newer versions of iTunes and iMovie and tell us how they run? Also I'd love to know how YouTube would perform on a machine made in 1996-1998

slide show is probably the best answer!

(Although I have technically not tried, its really not hard to deduce what the end result would be!)

I should throw a USB card into it and restore an iOS device via my 9600 that would be fun/amusing :)



played with the boot loader some more now I got the hang of it

sadly the Kanga still wont boot linux, and displays more or less the same issues it does when using the BootX linux boot loader

in that if you boot without an initrd, it will load the linux kernel but the backlight will turn off, and it will just freeze

if you try and load it with an initrd and it just wont load the linux kernel properly and freeze


interesting thing for giggles I tried the same with the 3400 and while I dont have enough RAM to load an initrd, interestingly unlike the kanga I can load the linux kernel itself just fine and while the backlight turns off i can turn it back on again and then the system will actually proceed to kernel panic as expected when i dont give it an initrd, (the kanga never even panicked it just froze)

so it seems like the linux kernel has some sort of fairly low level issue with the Kanga which is interesting, given how similar the 3400c and Kanga are....

its a shame I dont have anymore ram for the 3400c, if anyone has a 128MB RAM card for one for sale please do let me know :)

will be interesting to see how it plays on the Xemplar once the ram arrives


as side note it would be very interesting to see how the iQuick boot loader plays on an ANS500/700 LOL, might actually be a decent way to get linux booting one of those seeing as you cant use BootX because they dont run classic Mac OS

I messed with this some more, changing the AAPL,3500 compatible property to AAPL,3400/2400 in the root of the OF device tree so linux thinks its booting on a 3400c, got the backlight to play ball and it would now kernel panic without initrd as expected, so thats a little progress!

(perhaps it was kernel packing before hand, but its hard to say without a backlight! I have to shine a strong light at the screen to make out the kernel messages LOL, but it didn't look like it even panicked before hand, just hard froze)

but it still wont boot at all when I try to load with an initrd, perhaps 96MB of RAM just is not enough still...
 
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LightBulbFun

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the RAM has arrived :)

and im pleased to report its working well :)


pretty cool to see all 12 slots full :) (just a shame there not all matching 128MB sticks LOL)

1592919463898.png


fired up no problem thankfully

1592919548870.png


and passed memory testing without any issue :)

1592919586809.png


so very happy with things :) as an interesting side bonus, the linux boot loader BootX now works where as documented above it did not before....

so thats interesting and pretty cool although interesting L2 cache still does not seem to be enabled in linux sadly, even with the l2cr= kernel argument, cat /proc/cpuinfo just reports the false mobo cache still and a quick benchmark does not show any CPU speed improvements sadly

but now I have more then 512MB of RAM, I should also be able to run OS X better and finally run geekbench without it paging out to disk and skewing the results :)
 
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LightBulbFun

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Happy to report the RAM works fine in the Xemplar as well :) I really must get some L2 cache for it! its amazing how slow it is without any LOL if anyone has a spare L2 cache stick floating around do let know! (perhaps from a machine you have fitted with an L2 G3 sonnet card or such? :) )

1592944376620.png

interestingly BootX has the same bug/issue it did on the 9600 with 192MB of RAM, I suspect in light of this its a RAM issue, prehaphs because the Linux kernel and initrd add up to something like 52MB on their own! I do wonder if I can slim down the initrd.img somehow...

I tried the iQuick boot loader but it wont read a drive on the internal ATA bus properly sadly, so im currently in the middle of installing my Acard 6280M PCI ATA card which has worked very well in the weird and whacky things/situations I have put it in :)

hopefully then it will work!

and hopefully in the coming days ill be able to OS X on this "beast"!
 
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LightBulbFun

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I tried the iQuick boot loader but it wont read a drive on the internal ATA bus properly sadly, so im currently in the middle of installing my Acard 6280M PCI ATA card which has worked very well in the weird and whacky things/situations I have put it in :)

sadly it seems the issue is with the boot loader or OF itself since I get the same read error when trying to read via the PCI ATA Card too

1592951558650.png


so cant get it running linux currently sadly, not unless I can figure out how to slim the initrd down as I think thats the problem its large size is causing issue with BootX on machines with relatively low amounts of RAM

perhaps I could also contact the developer of iQuick and see if he has any thoughts on anything :) (looking at the github page its been tested on an AAPL,e407 machine (6400/5400) but not an AAPL,e411 machine (5500/6500) )

but for now ill give linux a rest and hope I have better luck getting OS X on it tomorrow!
 
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Appleuser201

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slide show is probably the best answer!

(Although I have technically not tried, its really not hard to deduce what the end result would be!)

I should throw a USB card into it and restore an iOS device via my 9600 that would be fun/amusing :)





I messed with this some more, changing the AAPL,3500 compatible property to AAPL,3400/2400 in the root of the OF device tree so linux thinks its booting on a 3400c, got the backlight to play ball and it would now kernel panic without initrd as expected, so thats a little progress!

(perhaps it was kernel packing before hand, but its hard to say without a backlight! I have to shine a strong light at the screen to make out the kernel messages LOL, but it didn't look like it even panicked before hand, just hard froze)

but it still wont boot at all when I try to load with an initrd, perhaps 96MB of RAM just is not enough still...
I'd love to see the most recent version of iTunes for PPC on this thing (I believe iOS 6 is the last iOS to support this version of iTunes?)
What happens when you plug in a PS/2 port device?
 
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LightBulbFun

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after quite a bit of finagling I got the Xemplar booting 10.2.8 Jaguar :)

1593040121787.png


somewhat worryingly tho like with the 4400 to boot it I had to use the OS X BootX boot loader from XpostFacto 3.1 rather then the one included in XpostFacto 4 (as the XP4 one just crashes in OF with a default catch sadly)

and this is worrying because im not 100% sure if the older BootX is Tiger friendly or not, will find out tomorrow when I try I guess! (otherwise my last hopes is try a 6400/5400 or somehow get a 128MB RAM card for one of my 3400c's)

for those wondering about the 4400 I have a thread on (running OS X on) it here :)



the display on the Xemplar is dim because by default for whatever reason when booting into OF its set to its lowest brightness which is off, so there are 3 cpoke commands in the nvramrc script alongside the rest of the OF patches that bring it up, but its still quite dim and sadly OS X does not have any brightness control so its stuck to whatever its set to in OF

I will have to see if I can modify the cpoke commands to increase the display brightness... although ill admit i dont really know what im doing there LOL but ill play with the hex values in the command and see if anything changes (I know the cpoke commands directly manipulate memory values, I just dont know which ones exactly control the screen brightness!)

said commands can be found here for those interested :)

 
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superparati

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This is a really good amount of test and learn @LightBulbFun,, thank you for sharing your experience.

I've also a nice 9600 somewhere in France far from where I current city. It has a lot of ram and a Crescendo G4 800Mhz card and a 9200 ATI Graphic card. If I have time i'll post of pictures later this summer of the full config.

Great to see you mac is running well with Tiger.
 
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LightBulbFun

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This is a really good amount of test and learn @LightBulbFun,, thank you for sharing your experience.

I've also a nice 9600 somewhere in France far from where I current city. It has a lot of ram and a Crescendo G4 800Mhz card and a 9200 ATI Graphic card. If I have time i'll post of pictures later this summer of the full config.

Great to see you mac is running well with Tiger.

oh very nice! id love one of those 700-1Ghz Sonnet G4 cards but they go for £LOL money

they have the distinction of being one of the very few sonnet CPUs that have "user" adjustable multipliers, well in this case resistors you can change :)

someone on another forum replaced the CPU on theirs with a 1.4Ghz 7455 from an MDD and made a 1.4Ghz 9600 which is pretty epic (sadly he tried to upgrade the L3 cache at the time which did not work sadly so its not as fast as it could be!)



it would be really interesting to see if a 7457 would work on a such a sonnet CPU card or even a 7448 via an interposer board :)
 
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superparati

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I was lucky enough to receive this machine for free back in those days when I was working at a French APR in Paris.
My colleague gave it to me without knowing what was inside ;).

When using the G4 800 card I wasn't surprised by it speed. I had compared this MP with a PM G3 450Mhz. As a result the PM Blue and White felt a bit faster. But I remember something wasn't working as expecting with the Crescendo card, no cache I think.

As soon as I found my old pictures I'll post a screenshot of my card here.
 
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LightBulbFun

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set aside the 5500 and played with 9600 some more now I have enough RAM to properly geekbench it I plan to do soon with a variety of CPUs it will be interesting to see how things compare :)

so thats what I plan to do soon :)

while I had still had 10.2.8 imaged for the 5500 it would be rude not to boot it on the 9600 :) its interesting how 10.2.8 sees the false non existent motherboard L2 cache but 10.4.11 tiger ignores it

1593304787430.png

(but even when its actually there IIRC tiger still ignores it, or at least does not display it in sys profiler if im recalling correctly from when I booted 10.4.11 on @bunnspecial 9600/200MP :) )

I also finally managed to unearth my G3 beige Tower where my 500Mhz 7410 Sonnet G4 ZIF had been hiding away, so I was finally able to install that into my XLR8 slocket and see how it would behave, I was especially curious as the sonnet ZIF is an auto setting one that normally does not require fiddling with the motherboard jumpers when installed in a G3 beige/G3 BW, if it detects a 66Mhz bus it sets the multiplier of itself to 7.5x and if its above 66Mhz it sets its multiplier to 5x,

so I was curious how it would react to a bus speed bellow 66Mhz, I had read that the sonnet engineers had thought about slocket users and included a max multiplier mode, where it sets itself to the maxmium multiplier the 7400/7410 G4 supports which is 9x

and indeed that looks to be the case so nice of sonnet to think of slocket users :)

1593305421105.png

its interesting how system profiler gets the speed wrong, with the Apple G3 750 and G4 7400 ZIF I tried previously it got the speed correct

also quickly booted back into 10.2.8 while I was at it :)

1593305467807.png


tiger and geekbench is next hopefully :)
 
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LightBulbFun

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got the 9600 booted into tiger

1593373959464.png


swapped the kernel over to my patched one and installed the stock 604ev CPU and booted it back up :)

1593373910396.png


and finally ran GB on it, I got a whopping 114! LOL https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench2/2687828

@tevion5 still holds the record for lowest PPC GB score with his 8600/250 clocking in at 95 :)


next up is put the kernel back to stock install a cache enabler then bench the 350Mhz 750 G3 and 450Mhz 7410 G4 and see how they do :)
 
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Appleuser201

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Into what PS/2 port would you plug a device?
Doesnt the old Powermac still have the old PS/2 ports? Would Leopard even support a PS/2 mouse or be able to read a floppy? Whereas Windows 10 supports both PS/2 and floppy as PC was wayyy behind Apple.
 
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repairedCheese

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Doesnt the old Powermac still have the old PS/2 ports? Would Leopard even support a PS/2 mouse or be able to read a floppy? Whereas Windows 10 supports both PS/2 and floppy as PC was wayyy behind Apple.
They never had PS/2 ports. What you're thinking of is ADB, Apple Desktop Bus. It's a very different port, one all pre-usb Macs had. And I can't personally speak to Leopard floppy support, but I imagine that would still work.
 
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bunnspecial

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USB floppies still work fine in 11.0. I haven’t followed if internal floppies can be made to work at all in OS X
 
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