Scott Forstall

[grahamperrin]

Speculation

… I daresay that Scott's version of ios8 would be nowhere near what we have today, given his love of skeumorphism.

I imagine that if Forstall was still at Apple:

• iOS now would be quite unlike iOS 6
• things would be not so dreadfully wrong with OS X.

Do you imagine that Forstall's ability begins and ends with the skeuomorph?

Do you imagine that Forstall alone was the driving force behind the presence of each skeuomorph?

 

[Abazigal]

I imagine that if Forstall was still at Apple:

• iOS now would be quite unlike iOS 6
• things would be not so dreadfully wrong with OS X.

Do you imagine that Forstall's ability begins and ends with the skeuomorph?

Do you imagine that Forstall alone was the driving force behind the presence of each skeuomorph?

Considering that the first thing Apple did after Forstall left was to implement a major overhaul of the design of iOS? Yes.

And considering the news that Scott was a fairly polarizing figure who loved to work in a silo, this meant that he was not open to collaboration or asking for help even when his department clearly needed it. For iOS and OS X to share similar design languages and features, this can only come about from close cooperation, something which was clearly not possible with Forstall around.

In short, I am convinced that Scott impeded progress at Apple more than he advanced it.

 

[grahamperrin]

Without Forstall: contention, resistance, lack of collaboration and discussion

… the first thing Apple did after Forstall left was to implement a major overhaul of the design of iOS …

Many of the changes between iOS 6 and 7 probably began under Forstall's senior vice presidency.

… considering the news …

I try to not form too strong a picture from the news.

How do you feel about Wozniak's comments about Forstall?

What about trust, and the many other things that made Forstall a great boss?

Did Forstall ever use WWDC as an opportunity to trivialise and disrespect the work of a former colleague in front of thousands of people?

… For iOS and OS X to share similar design languages and features, this can only come about from close cooperation, something which was clearly not possible with Forstall around. …

Again I must be blunt:

• the looks of Yosemite stank of contention, stank of resistance within and between teams

– the hallmarks of true collaboration are missing
– insufficient collaboration, insufficient discussion
– Apple no longer has a single, clear, shared vision for OS X.

Why Apple (and You) Might Miss Scott Forstall | WIRED (2012-10-31)

"… While most commenters seem happy to see him go, it’s worth noting that Apple is parting ways with one of the people who turned it into the world’s most powerful tech company.

… Forstall was about way, way more than just the look of Calendar and Contacts. And to focus only on those would be to ignore some landmark innovations he helped shepherd to market during his 15 years at Apple, projects that fundamentally changed both desktop and mobile computing. …

… After beginning his career under Steve Jobs at NeXT as one of the chief architects of the NeXTSTEP operating system, Forstall continued on to Apple to lead development of Mac OS X.

Forstall was fully responsible for Mac OS X beginning in 2006 and was responsible for the release of OS X Leopard in October 2007. It contained more than 300 improvements over its predecessor, OS X Tiger, including support for 64-bit applications and the backup service Time Machine.

… Forstall spearheaded the … UI that has graced Mac OS X since it debuted … the look evolved over the years, from translucent pinstripes to brushed metal to the gradient gray color scheme we’ve seen since OS X Leopard …"

So. All those changes to UI and much more.

Are you still convinced that on balance, Forstall impeded progress?

 

[Traverse]

Meh, I'd like a hybrid. If Ive and Forstall could work together to destin a usable OS with the modern flat look, but with some depth and appropriate skeumorphism.

 

[Abazigal]

Many of the changes between iOS 6 and 7 probably began under Forstall's senior vice presidency.

I doubt it. The contrast in design between iOS 6 and iOS 7 was too stark for Scott to ever have considered it. That's precisely why iOS 7 was so buggy - they had only that half year between the time Scott was fired and WWDC to overhaul it and give it the refresh it so desperately needed.

I try to not form too strong a picture from the news.

How do you feel about Wozniak's comments about Forstall?

What about trust, and the many other things that made Forstall a great boss?

Did Forstall ever use WWDC as an opportunity to trivialise and disrespect the work of a former colleague in front of thousands of people?

No, but his attitude on stage has always struck me as him being an arrogant pompous jerk. He would strut onto stage like he's the biggest F in the world, and present the features in an utterly condescending manner, even when they were clearly quite lacking and lacklustre (see the WWDC 2012, where he was demoing IOS6). This was the hallmark of someone who had clearly lost the plot. He was like a wild dog who would grow only more and more capricious and unreliable without Steve Jobs to effectively keep him under leash.

And so what if he was a great boss? This is a package deal. It's like a soccer team - there's no point in keeping a great player (or the best player) if he can't work with the rest of the team. At the end of the day, it may simply be better to fire him and play with 10 people than bother trying to accommodate him and make everyone else unhappy. That's what I believe happened here. Maybe within his team, he did a great job, but outside of it, he was proving to be a constant source of friction and acrimony. Ultimately, the benefits he brought to the table weren't worth the drawbacks.

Again I must be blunt:

• the looks of Yosemite stank of contention, stank of resistance within and between teams

– the hallmarks of true collaboration are missing
– insufficient collaboration, insufficient discussion
– Apple no longer has a single, clear, shared vision for OS X.

Why Apple (and You) Might Miss Scott Forstall | WIRED (2012-10-31)

So. All those changes to UI and much more.

Are you still convinced that on balance, Forstall impeded progress?

Yes, because I disagree with those statements made (I have glanced through them briefly). First, they are personal opinions, and hardly made by anyone of authority (much less in authority).

2nd, the redesign of iOS 7 is precisely what made features like extensions possible in iOS 8. You need a single, cohesive design language so you don't get design disasters like random 3D icons on a share sheet lined with green felt or a greyish metal background.

3rd, I like Yosemite's new look, just like I love the new direction iOS is headed, bugs and all. I don't think it reeks of confusion. If anything, it's precisely because the design language is still so new that Apple themselves isn't very clear on how to implement it uniformly across the board.

Moving forward, I expect that the developers at Apple will continue to focus on fixing the bugs and tightening up on the design to make it more consistent.

All in all, I maintain my opinion that Scott's departure had never been more timely (though I wish it had been earlier, maybe then Apple could have gotten round to designing ios7 in 2012), and Apple and its customers are better off for it.

 

[One13Truck]

Scott needs to come back. I don't care if he was a prick to work with. Apparently so is Ive. At least the stuff Apple put out while Scott was there looked better and WORKED better.

Yosemite is junk and looks awful. I never thought I'd ever do it but I couldn't take the iOS 7 and 8 and jailbroke my phone. Why? Because it looks like garbage just like Yosemite. The only reason I jailbroke it was to theme it to look like iOS 6 once again.

Sorry. Some of us hate the pastelly hard to read crap Apple is churning out for iOS and OS now and actually LIKED the skeuomorphism that was in the older looks. Bringing back the iOS 6 themes to me makes my iPhone look GOOD again. I love seeing the paper and all the old icons. Heck I even replaced my Yosemite icons with the older skeuomorphic icons too. I hate the direction Apple is going under Ive & Cook. Both need to be tossed ASAP.

 

[leventozler]

With iOS 7, their sole aim was to remove skeuomorphism, and it got too far.

We still don't have an "easy to tell if its on or off shift key," because they prefer flatness over user experience.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3034796/why-apples-biggest-design-crime-is-the-ios-keyboard

 

[Rodster]

Scott needs to come back. I don't care if he was a prick to work with. Apparently so is Ive. At least the stuff Apple put out while Scott was there looked better and WORKED better.

Yosemite is junk and looks awful. I never thought I'd ever do it but I couldn't take the iOS 7 and 8 and jailbroke my phone. Why? Because it looks like garbage just like Yosemite. The only reason I jailbroke it was to theme it to look like iOS 6 once again.

Sorry. Some of us hate the pastelly hard to read crap Apple is churning out for iOS and OS now and actually LIKED the skeuomorphism that was in the older looks. Bringing back the iOS 6 themes to me makes my iPhone look GOOD again. I love seeing the paper and all the old icons. Heck I even replaced my Yosemite icons with the older skeuomorphic icons too. I hate the direction Apple is going under Ive & Cook. Both need to be tossed ASAP.

I prefer the designs of pre iOS 7 because it was not only consistent but made sense like the previous poster who mentioned, you still don't know if the shift or caps key is on. I have an iPad 3 still running iOS 5 and still like the design. I've gotten used to the look of iOS 7 but it has it's share of performance issues even when it was released for the iPad Air.

That said I do like Yosemite and the look of the OS. I know it sounds contradictory but I guess i've been using OS X since 2001 and the fresh coat of paint looks nice to me. I like some of the new features as well and surprisingly enough it runs better on my 2012 Mac Mini than ML or Mavs. Go figure.

 

[grahamperrin]

Stage presences, questionable content at WWDC

… I basically meant he was annoying!

A potentially annoying stage presence? Not a good reason to lose one of the people who turned Apple into the world’s most powerful tech company.

WWDC 2012

… his attitude on stage … present the features in an utterly condescending manner, even when they were clearly quite lacking and lacklustre (see the WWDC 2012, where he was demoing IOS6). This was the hallmark of …

I didn't recall anything odd in the 2012 content. Maybe I listened to only a fraction of the iOS-related stuff …

iTunes - Podcasts - Apple Keynotes by Apple

… so this morning I listened to more of that keynote. Nothing struck me as odd.

Video of WWDC 2012 Keynote Now Available (2012-06-11)

Apple Announces iOS 6 with Siri Improvements, Facebook Integration, New Maps App, Passbook for Fall Release (2012-06-11)

Abazigal, just one post from you there. What was lacking and lacklustre at the time of that keynote?

WWDC 2013

Just a little was in bad taste. I like to think that Steve Jobs would never had allowed that taste at WWDC.

WWDC 2014

For at least one of the contentious changes to OS X, Apple attempted to explain things in a way that later appeared deceptive. Shame on Apple for that deception; it's one of a variety of reasons for loss of confidence, loss of trust in the company.

Also, the attention to Trash was surreal. Some people interpreted it as humorous, I just thought (at the time) that it was one of the weirdest thing I had ever seen in a WWDC event. A few weeks after Yosemite was released I thought back, and wondered whether someone was having a very subtle dig. A dig, a criticism that might be recognised only by a few insiders, i.e. "Given the bigger picture, the designer/developer effort spent on things such as the wastebasket icon is unbelievably, disproportionately large!". Now looking at http://youtu.be/w87fOAG8fjk?t=15m39s I don't see that. Craig Federighi does seem sincere enough.

Scott Forstall

And so what if he was a great boss?

Wow.

Please, don't underestimate the value of great management.

Keeping Safari a secret (2013-01-03)

"… Forstall certainly trusted me – that’s one of the many things that made him a great boss. And I trusted my team — otherwise I wouldn’t have hired them. None of us nor any of the internal beta testers at Apple were going to snitch. There were too damn few beta testers, but they were above reproach. …"​

– that's quite unlike a soccer team, and beginning things in that way apparently did no harm to Safari or related technologies.

This is a package deal. It's like a soccer team - there's no point in keeping a great player (or the best player) if he can't work with the rest of the team. At the end of the day, it may simply be better to fire him and play with 10 people than bother trying to accommodate him and make everyone else unhappy.

It's not so simple.

With or without mediation: whenever someone forces you to meet someone (or some group) against your will, to collaborate against your will, how do you react?

Consider the possibility that things under/around Forstall went well, or very well, before such interference.

Consider the possibility that the majority opinion (the notional ten people) was unacceptably far from what Forstall envisaged.

Happiness. What about the many displeased Apple customers?

… You need a single, cohesive design language so you don't get design disasters …

Please, what's the precedent for that belief?

Where – in the first seeded pre-release of OS X 10.10 – was the evidence of attempts to coherently and consistently apply a 'cohesive design language'?

… tightening up on the design to make it more consistent.

Attempting to increase the visual/design consistency will worsen the situation.

A Mac is not an iPhone.

… Scott's departure had never been more timely (though I wish it had been earlier, maybe then Apple could have gotten round to designing ios7 in 2012), and Apple and its customers are better off for it.

Do customer loyalties, towards the operating systems, reinforce the belief that customers are better off?

Apple purchased the database from TomTom. Cook made the decision to go live with Maps.

I'd like to discuss decision-making but not here. it belongs somewhere under the recent one-armed comment under 'Yosemite looks terrible!' …

 

[Abazigal]

Scott needs to come back. I don't care if he was a prick to work with. Apparently so is Ive. At least the stuff Apple put out while Scott was there looked better and WORKED better.



Yosemite is junk and looks awful. I never thought I'd ever do it but I couldn't take the iOS 7 and 8 and jailbroke my phone. Why? Because it looks like garbage just like Yosemite. The only reason I jailbroke it was to theme it to look like iOS 6 once again.



Sorry. Some of us hate the pastelly hard to read crap Apple is churning out for iOS and OS now and actually LIKED the skeuomorphism that was in the older looks. Bringing back the iOS 6 themes to me makes my iPhone look GOOD again. I love seeing the paper and all the old icons. Heck I even replaced my Yosemite icons with the older skeuomorphic icons too. I hate the direction Apple is going under Ive & Cook. Both need to be tossed ASAP.

And I happen to love the new look of iOS and OS X. So how now? We happen to be at an impasse, because our tastes and preferences appear to be diametrically aligned. Because in order to make you happy, that would mean making me upset.

In that case, I am not sure if I see the point in this discussion thread continuing, since none of us clearly have the power to influence Apple's design choices, and at the end of the day, both our arguments essentially boil down to "I like it and you don't".

Change will always be unsettling, and you can't please everyone, however hard one tries.

 

[grahamperrin]

… in order to make you happy, that would mean making me upset.

I think not. An essence of the problem is that one size can not fit all.

If Apple can offer more reasonable choices in appearance, then far fewer customers will dislike or hate the company's work.

… none of us clearly have the power to influence Apple's design choices …

No direct influence, but discussion can lead to better feedback, and so on.

Change will always be unsettling …

Not always.

 

[One13Truck]

In that case, I am not sure if I see the point in this discussion thread continuing, since none of us clearly have the power to influence Apple's design choices, and at the end of the day, both our arguments essentially boil down to "I like it and you don't".

We ABSOLUTELY have the power to influence Apple's design choices. I hate the direction they're going with Yosemite and iOS7/8. I also have a phone and a computer that are both quickly reaching the point they will need to be replaced. As long as they keep churning out OS and iOS that look and work like Yosemite and iOS 7/8 Apple will NOT get my money for a new computer or a new phone. I'm going with the competition. It may only be 1 person but there are many others like me just as upset with the direction Ive and Cook are taking the company in so the loss of income will eventually be noticed by them.

 

[Poisonivy326]

Hate to say it, but if you want a simple skeumorphic design Android is pretty much that. Way more than iOS.

 

[Abazigal]

I think not. An essence of the problem is that one size can not fit all.



If Apple can offer more reasonable choices in appearance, then far fewer customers will dislike or hate the company's work.



No direct influence, but discussion can lead to better feedback, and so on.



Not always.

I don't think Apple will ever go back to offering 2 different versions of iOS (one pre-ios7 and one post) and focus on updating them both in tandem, if that's what you are hoping.

Apple has always been as specific about the markets they choose not to address, just as they are very clear about the markets that they do decide to target.

That Apple doesn't have a 1-size-fits-all approach which appeals to the majority of consumers isn't the problem; it's simply the consequence of their business strategy.

Apple may attract far fewer customers this way, but the customers they do attract tend to be more loyal to the platform, more willing to spend and be more than ready to stick with Apple throughout. In this context, quality matters more than quantity.

The problem is the consumer (and I mean this is a fairly neutral, non-antagonistic light). You are correct that you are a customer. But you are not an Apple customer. You want what Apple does not offer. You are walking into a dealership that only sells Mercedes and demanding a new BMW. You are indeed the problem, not Apple.

 

[grahamperrin]

Notes

I don't think Apple will ever go back to offering 2 different versions of iOS (one pre-ios7 and one post) and focus on updating them both in tandem, if that's what you are hoping.

I use iOS 3.1.3. Plans to get a more capable iPhone ended some time after I began testing OS X Yosemite.

Apple distributes and updates four versions of Mac OS X. I expect this approach, or something similar, to continue for at least five years. Like iOS, some features are present only in the most recent version of OS X.

Yosemite looks terrible! – amongst other things, there's the wish for a broader range of appearance-related preferences.

Apple has always been as specific about the markets they choose not to address …

Not so with Yosemite.

That said, there was a refreshing display of frankness from an Apple Store a few weeks ago.

That Apple doesn't have a 1-size-fits-all approach which appeals to the majority of consumers isn't the problem; it's simply the consequence of their business strategy.

How would you describe Apple's business strategy?

I doubt that any high-level strategic vision predicted such negativity in response to Yosemite.

Customer loyalties

Apple may attract far fewer customers this way, but the customers they do attract tend to be more loyal to the platform …

Please, do you have any evidence for that?

Within the constraints of MacRumors Forums, two weeks ago it seemed that the Net Promoter® score (NPS) for Yosemite was ~66% lower than the score for Mavericks; and the score for iOS 8.x was below zero.

Understanding the problems

… You are walking into a dealership that only sells Mercedes and demanding a new BMW. You are indeed the problem, not Apple. …

That's entirely the wrong metaphor for me. And we are not the problem.

 

[H3boy]

My feelings about this

 

[Traverse]

No, but his attitude on stage has always struck me as him being an arrogant pompous jerk.

I have to admite he was very talented with software, but I have to agree with Abazigal. Over the years he made jokes during the keynotes that seemed offensive. I initially though he was just nervous, but after learning more about him I think they were intentional jabs.

I remember during the iPad 2 keynote (I believe) he was demonstrating the iPad's new cameras with a FaceTime call to Michael Tchao and he said something like:

"Michael's at some kind of depressing cafe...maybe if he had some kids or something."

I remember I froze (I wasn't paying much attention at the time) to make sure I heard it right. I thought that was a very mean jab.

 

[grahamperrin]

Whoa

OK. The benefit of the doubt just ran out.

I vaguely recall that comment, it puzzled me but I thought no more of it at the time because I had no personal plans to get an iPad.

The post-Forstall jab at a WWDC now seems less mean.

Bottom line, I think: jabbing gets us nowhere in the current situation … I'll unsubscribe from this topic to focus elsewhere.

 

[Old geek 959]

Discussion: What if Scott Forstall stayed in Apple?

Lets assume that maps actually worked and Scott Forestall stayed in Apple as a SVP for iOS development. What do you think of iOS 7 + 8 then?

 

[I7guy]

Lets assume that maps actually worked and Scott Forestall stayed in Apple as a SVP for iOS development. What do you think of iOS 7 + 8 then?

We might as well assume Steve jobs didn't die and is still at the helm.

 

[cmichaelb]

Many of the changes between iOS 6 and 7 probably began under Forstall's senior vice presidency.



I try to not form too strong a picture from the news.

How do you feel about Wozniak's comments about Forstall?

What about trust, and the many other things that made Forstall a great boss?

Did Forstall ever use WWDC as an opportunity to trivialise and disrespect the work of a former colleague in front of thousands of people?



Again I must be blunt:

• the looks of Yosemite stank of contention, stank of resistance within and between teams

– the hallmarks of true collaboration are missing
– insufficient collaboration, insufficient discussion
– Apple no longer has a single, clear, shared vision for OS X.

Why Apple (and You) Might Miss Scott Forstall | WIRED (2012-10-31)



So. All those changes to UI and much more.

Are you still convinced that on balance, Forstall impeded progress?

Yes I am convinced. Forstall let iOS stagnate - the lack of new features allowed Android to catch, and surpass iOS.

Cook obvious felt that keeping Mansfield and Ive in the fold rather than Forstall was the right move.

The stories coming out of Cupertino on employee reactions to Forstall being demoted told the story very well.

 

[One13Truck]

Hate to say it, but if you want a simple skeumorphic design Android is pretty much that. Way more than iOS.

I just did a jailbreak on my iPhone and made it look much much nicer by adding the skeumorphic icons, a closer font to the old Apple font, changed other stuff around. Basically I made it look just like iOS6 again unfortunately it just changes the icons and doesn't bring back the look in the apps themselves. At least the font change is universal.
iOS 6 was the best iOS Apple made from a visual standpoint. iOS7 and 8 are like Yosemite. The added features are nice but the look of it is absolutely mind numbingly terrible. I have an aging computer and an agin iPhone and will not buy Apple for either replacement if there's no hope of fixing either OS.

 

[Boeonoz]

I want him back also. His is the one who know the basic core structure of iOS. Without him it is like we building somethings over the top of old building without knowing it will withstand weight or not.

iOS performance is worst and worst. My iPhone 5S 8.1 is now slower than iPad 2 on iOS 7 in some Apps. Wifi is very unstable, got disconnected a lot while my old ipad still playing fine.

He was fired because of Apple Map, as head of iOS. And what about Tim Cock! He is CEO, should do some checking before it go live and blame other. He should be replace before Apple is ruin.

I don't see any innovation nowadays, only speed bump and usual routine redesign. Also higher profit margin and tricky strategy like 16/64/128Gb.

And last, 4" is the best.

I still cheer for him, he looks better than Tim Cook in term of inventor/creator. Tim Cook is just good businessman that you can find anywhere.

 

[dannyyankou]

If Forstall were still around, we probably wouldn't have gotten Nintype, which is my favorite new keyboard at the moment.

 

[I7guy]

I want him back also. His is the one who know the basic core structure of iOS. Without him it is like we building somethings over the top of old building without knowing it will withstand weight or not.

iOS performance is worst and worst. My iPhone 5S 8.1 is now slower than iPad 2 on iOS 7 in some Apps. Wifi is very unstable, got disconnected a lot while my old ipad still playing fine.

He was fired because of Apple Map, as head of iOS. And what about Tim Cock! He is CEO, should do some checking before it go live and blame other. He should be replace before Apple is ruin.

I don't see any innovation nowadays, only speed bump and usual routine redesign. Also higher profit margin and tricky strategy like 16/64/128Gb.

And last, 4" is the best.

I still cheer for him, he looks better than Tim Cook in term of inventor/creator. Tim Cook is just good businessman that you can find anywhere.

I don't agree with most of this post:

- 8.1.1 performance on iPhone 5s is excellent
- have few issues with wifi
- Tim cook is not an inventor; he's the leader. The stock price reflects market sentiment about where Apple is.