So pissed off at apple...ridiculous.

[leman]

Thirdly, Apple have managed to just release an Air with a chip none of us knew that existed nor was on any Intel site until after release. They have very close working relationships with vendors clearly.

This is very different! The chip already existed and we knew about it. What was special is that it had custom clocks, but the chip is exactly the same Amber Lake Intel released more than a month ago.
Mobile Vega on the other hand is based on a new chip entirely. Asking a manufacturer to put a custom clock confit on a product they already ship is by far not the same then waiting on a completely new product with yet unknown issues.

The thing is, if Vega would ship, say, in September, I’d totally agree. This would mean that back in July the chip would have been production ready and d rtything was figured out. But the mere fact that it starts shipping in late nov. strongly implies that back in July not everything was figured out. There is a reason why companies don’t generally disclose what kind of products they are going to ship in half a year...

 

[Ploki]

What decent business do you know that announces future updates half a year ahead of time? Most they do is announce unreleased products few months before to build up hype and prevent people from buying something else. Besides, AMD has announced mobile Vega back in January, and it was certain that it would come to the MBP.

It's not an update, it's a BTO option for top-tier macbook and BTO only. Every decent professional company has a roadmap for their customers, sans apple.

The white iphone4 never even happened and they announced it - and it directly hurt their sales. a BTO option wouldn't hurt more than 10% initial sales.

Intel announced mobile 6-core chips last year but they didn't make it to 2017 macbooks, am i supposed to be psychic to predict which of thousands of chips will make it to an apple product?

This is not how companies that cater to professionals conduct business.

GTX1050 was just as likely to be a contender for it. Or 570X. 560X was the least likely contender since its the same chip as last years model...

Besides, Vega 16 and 20 are GCN5 which is not new tech. It's been out since 2017, it was a matter of implementation and apple made it seem like they weren't going to include it in this iteration of macbook - but they did with delay.
they never ever announced a macbook in such a hodge-podge manner.

edit:
Just so we're clear:
I bought the 2012 Retina MBP in JANUARY 2013, 6 months after release, and Early 2013 was released merely a month later!
I wasn't pissed - my 2012 was working splendidly and i was happy with it, and it was still top of the line 2012 - just as i bought it.

I also wasn't pissed because it was a general update after 7 months - everything was upgraded, and it was 7 months after release. This is a BTO upgrade after 4 months, for arguably something that's been the biggest concern about the 2018 MBP from the beginning.

This is a BTO option that was supposed to got with initial release, not a refresh. GPU is the only thing in this laptop that's previous gen and I WOULD HAVE ORDERED IT if they had announced it.

Apple never offered computers in such manner and this is highly unexpected of them, so please don't tell me I should've expected and predicted that because there's no logic in that.

 

[Ma2k5]

This is very different! The chip already existed and we knew about it. What was special is that it had custom clocks, but the chip is exactly the same Amber Lake Intel released more than a month ago.
Mobile Vega on the other hand is based on a new chip entirely. Asking a manufacturer to put a custom clock confit on a product they already ship is by far not the same then waiting on a completely new product with yet unknown issues.

The thing is, if Vega would ship, say, in September, I’d totally agree. This would mean that back in July the chip would have been production ready and d rtything was figured out. But the mere fact that it starts shipping in late nov. strongly implies that back in July not everything was figured out. There is a reason why companies don’t generally disclose what kind of products they are going to ship in half a year...

Ignoring what Apple knew or didn't know, do you think it is unreasonable for people to be upset? That really is the crux of where I am going with my POV - When I saw the announcement, I expected people to be upset and of course people were upset and for me, that is just normal.

 

[Brian Y]

I really wouldn't worry about it. It's likely going to be a very expensive, rather pointless upgrade IMO.

Firstly, the Vega cards are VERY power thirsty. I'd be surprised if that card didn't knock at least couple of hours off of the battery live compared to the 560x when it's in use. With power comes heat - my Vega Frontier could heat my bloody house when it gets going - do you really want that in a laptop which has a long history of GPU failures?

Secondly, pricing hasn't been announced. It's probably going to be bloody expensive (see the GPU upgrades on the iMac pro). If you really need that much graphics power - just get an enclosure and a Vega 64. It will probably end up costing around the same, except you'll get twice the VRAM, higher performance and you'll still have your internal 560x - so you can effectively run two separate GPU compute tasks at the same time.

 

[NT1440]

This thread is amazing. 5 pages of teeth gnashing. What I don’t understand is why people can’t seem to consider that given AMD and Apple co-announced these chips on the very same day clearly AMD didn’t want to announce them prior.

To which the response seems to be that Apple should have announced the card regardless of AMD not planning on announcing it at the time. What sense does that make in the world of business?

 

[koyoot]

I really wouldn't worry about it. It's likely going to be a very expensive, rather pointless upgrade IMO.

Firstly, the Vega cards are VERY power thirsty. I'd be surprised if that card didn't knock at least couple of hours off of the battery live compared to the 560x when it's in use. With power comes heat - my Vega Frontier could heat my bloody house when it gets going - do you really want that in a laptop which has a long history of GPU failures?

Secondly, pricing hasn't been announced. It's probably going to be bloody expensive (see the GPU upgrades on the iMac pro). If you really need that much graphics power - just get an enclosure and a Vega 64. It will probably end up costing around the same, except you'll get twice the VRAM, higher performance and you'll still have your internal 560x - so you can effectively run two separate GPU compute tasks at the same time.

It has 35W TDP. How is it different 35W TDP from 35W TDP of Radeon Pro 560X?

GPUs in Apple comptuers are power limited, in their GPU BIOS. All power targets you can extract from them, meaning they will not exceed that thermal limit. How can it be different 35W of power from 35W of power from Radeon Pro 560X?

 

[Ploki]

This thread is amazing. 5 pages of teeth gnashing. What I don’t understand is why people can’t seem to consider that given AMD and Apple co-announced these chips on the very same day clearly AMD didn’t want to announce them prior.

To which the response seems to be that Apple should have announced the card regardless of AMD not planning on announcing it at the time. What sense does that make in the world of business?

They didnt need to specify nor vendor nor models... “more powerful bto options available in november” is all it would take.

 

[IngerMan]

Ignoring what Apple knew or didn't know, do you think it is unreasonable for people to be upset? That really is the crux of where I am going with my POV - When I saw the announcement, I expected people to be upset and of course people were upset and for me, that is just normal.

It is easy for us that did not go top end 2018 recently to analyze that it was inevitable change that will happen and those affected should realize it. It is not that big of deal.

Easy for us because we did not invest the big coin.

I changed my mind after more thought, reading the post and trying to put myself in the situation.

I would be upset, frustrated as well. Everyone handles frustration and disappointment differently. Hopefully those affected can get some comfort for venting in this post, and realizing you are not the only one. This affects many.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I bought a 2017 MBP 13' right before the 2018 MBPs came out. Initially, I had that "no frigging way" feeling... but looking at the prices of the new MBP laptops … how the new processors had "heating issues" and … my laptop was working PERFECTLY and will continue to do so for 6+ years (my plan).

I got a 1TB 16GB MBP 13' TB. The price of the 2TB and needing to get a 15' for the 32GB of ram which was … atrocious pricing (I already bled through the nose to get what I got) --- my i5-7287U processor is plenty fast.

I'm glad I opted for the 13' with an eGPU. I can upgrade my graphics card whenever I want and it keeps my laptop super cool even during heavy gaming. I take my laptop to work during the day then at home where the eGPU is, I can game at night if I want.

To get pissed off at Apple is kinda silly imo.

I'm happy there is innovation. Hopefully 6+ years from now when I think about upgrading, computers will be radically different. I buy high end because I plan on keeping my laptop for a LONG time (hence the eGPU).

Why get frustrated when new stuff comes out? I guess if I was wealthy enough to always be buying the latest I could see such frustration. But I hope to get 6+ years out of my stuff because I'm not that rich.

Heck... my 2015 MBA 11' was more than capable for what I needed when I got rid of it this year. Apple's products last for a long long time.

 

[_Kiki_]

Apple is more greedy every year and quality of the their laptops and service is falling down every year

because you paid a lot money you should use PayPal or CC, so in this situation chargeback probably will solve the problem

 

[Ploki]

I bought a 2017 MBP 13' right before the 2018 MBPs came out. Initially, I had that "no frigging way" feeling... but looking at the prices of the new MBP laptops … how the new processors had "heating issues" and … my laptop was working PERFECTLY and will continue to do so for 6+ years (my plan).

Why get frustrated when new stuff comes out? I guess if I was wealthy enough to always be buying the latest I could see such frustration. But I hope to get 6+ years out of my stuff because I'm not that rich.

Heck... my 2015 MBA 11' was more than capable for what I needed when I got rid of it this year. Apple's products last for a long long time.

I bought the 2012 Retina MBP one month before early 2013 got out. It was top of the line 2012. And it still was when 2013 came out. I wanted to update since 2016 and waited till 2018, thats 2 years of waiting for apple to get their **** together.
I checked "buyer's guide" every month.


I'm not frustrated because new stuff gets out, I get frustrated when old stuff is done properly as it should be at the time of the release while said old stuff is still not working properly.

This is not innovation in the slightest. 560X is 2 year old chip and Vega Pro is what should be paired with the 8th gen intel cpus to begin with...

I shouldn't *have to* deal with this **** on such an expensive machine, if i wanted ****** service I'd have bought a computer from a ****** vendor.

Trust me, if my computer worked perfectly I wouldn't have jumped on this piss-train so quickly, but having been on/off with Apple support the Vega addition is just a salt on the open wound that was this 15"-er.

I can't use this top of the line 5300€ machine because it does not work. I have to buy another computer in the meantime and my 5300€ top of the line machine just became OLD before it ever worked properly.

I'm sure as hell pissed at Apple, and after 10 years of buying their computers I reserve the right to be pissed at them.

edit: for the record, i don't even want the vega anymore. If i get my money back i'm not buying another 15" MacBook Pro - i'm not giving them money for such a botched release.

- it shipped with horrid overheating issue because "someone forgot some software flag"
- x % of people experience kernel panics
- y % of people experience crackling speakers and/or audio dropouts (I'm one of those)
- I experience flickering display.

These issues are unacceptable for the planet's most expensive laptop.

This laptop WAS NOT READY when it was released and it was rushed out of the factory. If they did the release properly they would have waited till october and announced it with Vegas, not ripe with such issues.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I bought the 2012 Retina MBP one month before early 2013 got out. It was top of the line 2012. And it still was when 2013 came out. I wanted to update since 2016 and waited till 2018, thats 2 years of waiting for apple to get their **** together.
I checked "buyer's guide" every month.


I'm not frustrated because new stuff gets out, I get frustrated when old stuff is done properly as it should be at the time of the release while said old stuff is still not working properly.

This is not innovation in the slightest. 560X is 2 year old chip and Vega Pro is what should be paired with the 8th gen intel cpus to begin with...

I shouldn't *have to* deal with this **** on such an expensive machine, if i wanted ****** service I'd have bought a computer from a ****** vendor.

Trust me, if my computer worked perfectly I wouldn't have jumped on this piss-train so quickly, but having been on/off with Apple support the Vega addition is just a salt on the open wound that was this 15"-er.

I can't use this top of the line 5300€ machine because it does not work. I have to buy another computer in the meantime and my 5300€ top of the line machine just became OLD before it ever worked properly.

I'm sure as hell pissed at Apple, and after 10 years of buying their computers I reserve the right to be pissed at them.

edit: for the record, i don't even want the vega anymore. If i get my money back i'm not buying another 15" MacBook Pro - i'm not giving them money for such a botched release.

- it shipped with horrid overheating issue because "someone forgot some software flag"
- x % of people experience kernel panics
- y % of people experience crackling speakers and/or audio dropouts (I'm one of those)
- I experience flickering display.

These issues are unacceptable for the planet's most expensive laptop.

This laptop WAS NOT READY when it was released and it was rushed out of the factory. If they did the release properly they would have waited till october and announced it with Vegas, not ripe with such issues.

I took a bit more time to read the thread more thoroughly. Hope everything ends up better for you. Have to agree that this obsession with thinness and the need to size down is not something I'm a fan of. I know I'm in the minority but I'd rather have a bigger battery, thicker laptop with a nicer keyboard, and higher end components. I still buy apple because I like the hardware versus other options in my price range - my MBP 13' is working very well, but I know people with the 15' that have issues, especially with the 2018.

 

[Ploki]

I took a bit more time to read the thread more thoroughly. Hope everything ends up better for you. Have to agree that this obsession with thinness and the need to size down is not something I'm a fan of. I know I'm in the minority but I'd rather have a bigger battery, thicker laptop with a nicer keyboard, and higher end components. I still buy apple because I like the hardware versus other options in my price range - my MBP 13' is working very well, but I know people with the 15' that have issues, especially with the 2018.

Thank you, appreciated!

I'm not willing to give up on Apple and switch either; yet, but considering this product range is aimed and marketed at creative professionals, and seeing that I have dealt with other companies that cater to the same public, this is generally not how they handled customers and i'm pretty disappointed at how people quickly people here jump to defend Apple's shoddy business conduct, when it happens.

 

[NT1440]

Thank you, appreciated!

I'm not willing to give up on Apple and switch either; yet, but considering this product range is aimed and marketed at creative professionals, and seeing that I have dealt with other companies that cater to the same public, this is generally not how they handled customers and i'm pretty disappointed at how people quickly people here jump to defend Apple's shoddy business conduct, when it happens.

Can you point to any OEM that has ever announced a chip or card prior to the actual manufacturer of that component?

 

[Ploki]

Can you point to any OEM that has ever announced a chip or card prior to the actual manufacturer of that component?

AMD FirePro D300 in 2013 Mac Pros was announced half year prior release, just like Vega Pro 20 it was an Apple exclusive.
https://architosh.com/2013/10/the-mac-pro-so-whats-a-d300-d500-and-d700-anyway-we-have-answers/

Oh, and some time back, the same thing happened with iMac Pro.

The Radeon Pro Vega product line of GPUs were first announced in 2017 as a part of Apple's iMac Pro. The two models, 56 and 64, support 8 and 16 GB of HBM2 memory, respectively.

So apple consistently announced their pro products with exclusive GPUs half a year in front - except for the MacBook Pro.

But you guys insist we should've expected this somehow.

Ignoring that, I'm repeating myself: They didn't have to announce nor specific chip nor vendor, i can guarantee you they knew what AMD had in store for them when they released the macbook pros in july.

A simple "a more powerful BTO option will be available at the end of 2018". Most people would ignore it and get 555X or 560X. Some people would wait, including me.

Given how botched the release was it was premature release either way.

 

[Howard2k]

I bought the 2012 Retina MBP one month before early 2013 got out. It was top of the line 2012. And it still was when 2013 came out. I wanted to update since 2016 and waited till 2018, thats 2 years of waiting for apple to get their **** together.
I checked "buyer's guide" every month.


I'm not frustrated because new stuff gets out, I get frustrated when old stuff is done properly as it should be at the time of the release while said old stuff is still not working properly.

This is not innovation in the slightest. 560X is 2 year old chip and Vega Pro is what should be paired with the 8th gen intel cpus to begin with...

I shouldn't *have to* deal with this **** on such an expensive machine, if i wanted ****** service I'd have bought a computer from a ****** vendor.

Trust me, if my computer worked perfectly I wouldn't have jumped on this piss-train so quickly, but having been on/off with Apple support the Vega addition is just a salt on the open wound that was this 15"-er.

I can't use this top of the line 5300€ machine because it does not work. I have to buy another computer in the meantime and my 5300€ top of the line machine just became OLD before it ever worked properly.

I'm sure as hell pissed at Apple, and after 10 years of buying their computers I reserve the right to be pissed at them.

edit: for the record, i don't even want the vega anymore. If i get my money back i'm not buying another 15" MacBook Pro - i'm not giving them money for such a botched release.

- it shipped with horrid overheating issue because "someone forgot some software flag"
- x % of people experience kernel panics
- y % of people experience crackling speakers and/or audio dropouts (I'm one of those)
- I experience flickering display.

These issues are unacceptable for the planet's most expensive laptop.

This laptop WAS NOT READY when it was released and it was rushed out of the factory. If they did the release properly they would have waited till october and announced it with Vegas, not ripe with such issues.

I agree with this.

 

[leman]

Every decent professional company has a roadmap for their customers, sans apple.

What computer company you know that releases a product roadmap half a year ahead?

Intel announced mobile 6-core chips last year but they didn't make it to 2017 macbooks, am i supposed to be psychic to predict which of thousands of chips will make it to an apple product?

Intel has released mobile 6-core chips in April 2018 and the first laptops using those CPUs shipped mid-late May. Apple followed in July.

Apple never offered computers in such manner and this is highly unexpected of them, so please don't tell me I should've expected and predicted that because there's no logic in that.

I'll jut give you some examples. The 15" MBP was updated:

October 2008
March 2009
June 2009
April 2010

Or more recently, the 13" model:

October 2012
February 2013

Its the same 5 months difference. And we are not talking about just new BTO options. Those updates usually had a better default CPU, more RAM etc.

 

[MacNut]

They didnt need to specify nor vendor nor models... “more powerful bto options available in november” is all it would take.

Did they know it would be ready for November 5 months ago. Or was this, Hey guess what the chips are finally going to be finished in 2 weeks.

 

[NT1440]

AMD FirePro D300 in 2013 Mac Pros was announced half year prior release, just like Vega Pro 20 it was an Apple exclusive.
https://architosh.com/2013/10/the-mac-pro-so-whats-a-d300-d500-and-d700-anyway-we-have-answers/

Oh, and some time back, the same thing happened with iMac Pro.


So apple consistently announced their pro products with exclusive GPUs half a year in front - except for the MacBook Pro.

But you guys insist we should've expected this somehow.

Ignoring that, I'm repeating myself: They didn't have to announce nor specific chip nor vendor, i can guarantee you they knew what AMD had in store for them when they released the macbook pros in july.

A simple "a more powerful BTO option will be available at the end of 2018". Most people would ignore it and get 555X or 560X. Some people would wait, including me.

Given how botched the release was it was premature release either way.

So the vendor allowed them to announce those cards, that was the whole point I’ve repeatedly made that you’re willfully ignoring.

 

[Ploki]

What computer company you know that releases a product roadmap half a year ahead?

Intel has released mobile 6-core chips in April 2018 and the first laptops using those CPUs shipped mid-late May. Apple followed in July.

I'll jut give you some examples. The 15" MBP was updated:

October 2008
March 2009
June 2009
April 2010

Or more recently, the 13" model:

October 2012
February 2013

Its the same 5 months difference. And we are not talking about just new BTO options. Those updates usually had a better default CPU, more RAM etc.

Coffee Lake chips leaked as early as 2017...
And be sure Apple had prototypes. They did not receive them in April and made a new macbook by July. (except judging by how poor the release went, it looks like they did)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-Coffee-Lake-6-core-mobile-CPU-benchmarks-are-in.245804.0.html

Those were refreshes of the same architecture, spec bumps, none of them were chip generation swap - which is what happened here, and you only cited models from literally a decade ago - not even Retina models...

The 13" was a 0.1GHz speed buff or something like that.

I shouldn't have to tell you 0.1GHz speed buff of the same architecture is not nearly the same as a new gen of gpu.

I should know by the way, I was an early adopter the last two macbook 15" - had 2008 2.53GHz which i bought in *december* and 2012 2.7GHz (which i bought in January 2013, one month before they released the February refresh)...

And i wasn't pissed about any of those, ever.

Did they know it would be ready for November 5 months ago. Or was this, Hey guess what the chips are finally going to be finished in 2 weeks.

They couldn't have known either for Radeon Vega 64/56 nor FirePro D300/D500...

So the vendor allowed them to announce those cards, that was the whole point I’ve repeatedly made that you’re willfully ignoring.

To both of you: if you think that chips are made in a week and ready in two weeks in a partnership such as Apple/AMD, history is proving you wrong with every other apple pro machine since sans MacBook Pro 2018.

 

[NT1440]

Coffee Lake chips leaked as early as 2017...
And be sure Apple had prototypes. They did not receive them in April and made a new macbook by July. (except judging by how poor the release went, it looks like they did)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-Coffee-Lake-6-core-mobile-CPU-benchmarks-are-in.245804.0.html

Those were refreshes of the same architecture, spec bumps, none of them were chip generation swap - which is what happened here, and you only cited models from literally a decade ago - not even Retina models...

The 13" was a 0.1GHz speed buff or something like that.

I shouldn't have to tell you 0.1GHz speed buff of the same architecture is not nearly the same as a new gen of gpu.

I should know by the way, I was an early adopter the last two macbook 15" - had 2008 2.53GHz which i bought in *december* and 2012 2.7GHz (which i bought in January 2013, one month before they released the February refresh)...

And i wasn't pissed about any of those, ever.



They couldn't have known either for Radeon Vega 64/56 nor FirePro D300/D500...


To both of you: if you think that chips are made in a week and ready in two weeks in a partnership such as Apple/AMD, history is proving you wrong with every other apple pro machine since sans MacBook Pro 2018.

I’d appreciate it if you actually stuck to what I’ve said to you if you’re going to respond to me.

 

[Brian Y]

It has 35W TDP. How is it different 35W TDP from 35W TDP of Radeon Pro 560X?

GPUs in Apple comptuers are power limited, in their GPU BIOS. All power targets you can extract from them, meaning they will not exceed that thermal limit. How can it be different 35W of power from 35W of power from Radeon Pro 560X?

Where have you gotten that 35w figure from?

 

[MacNut]

Coffee Lake chips leaked as early as 2017...
And be sure Apple had prototypes. They did not receive them in April and made a new macbook by July. (except judging by how poor the release went, it looks like they did)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/First-Coffee-Lake-6-core-mobile-CPU-benchmarks-are-in.245804.0.html

Those were refreshes of the same architecture, spec bumps, none of them were chip generation swap - which is what happened here, and you only cited models from literally a decade ago - not even Retina models...

The 13" was a 0.1GHz speed buff or something like that.

I shouldn't have to tell you 0.1GHz speed buff of the same architecture is not nearly the same as a new gen of gpu.

I should know by the way, I was an early adopter the last two macbook 15" - had 2008 2.53GHz which i bought in *december* and 2012 2.7GHz (which i bought in January 2013, one month before they released the February refresh)...

And i wasn't pissed about any of those, ever.



They couldn't have known either for Radeon Vega 64/56 nor FirePro D300/D500...


To both of you: if you think that chips are made in a week and ready in two weeks in a partnership such as Apple/AMD, history is proving you wrong with every other apple pro machine since sans MacBook Pro 2018.

Who even remotely said chips are made in a week. It takes years of design and development. And then you need to get proper yields. I’m saying these chips were delayed months. Not built in a day.

 

[Ploki]

I’d appreciate it if you actually stuck to what I’ve said to you if you’re going to respond to me.

You are making a pointless assumption that AMD and Apple miraculously changed the deal of their relationship based on nothing. At least I'm basing my assumptions based on previous cases.
I've given you two examples of same relationship from the past decade where chips were announced half a year in front of actual release.
Mind you, both of those machines *rely* on the aforementioned GPUs; there is no other option. MacBook Pro 15" does not. It made complete sense to ship them with entry-level GPUs and it made absolutely no sense to delay the announcement for high-tier chips for people who are potential buyers of said chips.

But nothing about the release has been right from the start anyway... So the only thing unsurprising about this announcement is that it's been as clumsy as the release of this laptop was from the beginning.

Who even remotely said chips are made in a week. It takes years of design and development. And then you need to get proper yields. I’m saying these chips were delayed months. Not built in a day.

Amazing, and I'm saying Apple announced similar chips on similarly priced machines target at similar audience half a year in advance in the last two cases.

 

[koyoot]

Where have you gotten that 35w figure from?

And how do you think Apple would fir higher TDP GPU into MBP, when it has 85W PSU?

Historically all of MBP GPUs have had 35W TDP(power limit).