So will Apple ever offer us the full web in a tablet device like the others do?

[mKTank]

God I'm sick and tired of the words "troll" or "trolling". Can't we have a discussion without throwing those words every second post?

I don't know which is worse, someone calling someone a troll or someone actually trolling... Wait, I do know. It's someone calling someone a troll. I don't actually mind some trolling/provocation, makes life interesting. I've never been offended by anyone's trolling. I just laugh it off.

But I guess the internet is full of sensitive people. I can't stand sensitive people. <--- Is this "trolling"?

Now please, could everyone get back on topic!

Basically this guy has been whining in another thread that I have differing opinions from him and he felt it necessary to drag that argument into this thread. He changed the subject here though because he realized that he's wrong about Flash vs HTML5, etc. I'll apologize on his behalf for mucking up the thread. Carry on.

On the other hand, look at him go!

vvvvv

 

[fertilized-egg]

Nice, you're coming up with crap now. If that's not saving face, I don't know what is.

That's the comeback? Keep repeating that "you're trying to save face" so that you want to make it look like you're winning the argument?

mKTank. Let me summarize this.
- Someone said something "sucks" and another product is "beating it hands down"
- Another person offered measured "objective" data from an expert in the field
- You attack that person with the word "fanboyism" not even reading the article correctly
- I pointed out you didn't read article properly
- You now claim it's all "subjective" and says (the author) "can call himselt to be an expert"
- I showed his credentials. Physics PhD. Owner of display tech company
- You keep saying it's all "subjective."

Then why the heck did you try to impose your side of "subjective" opinion over others when the OP wasn't being subjective at all? You're just picking side of being subjective when it's convenient.

 

[fertilized-egg]

God I'm sick and tired of the words "troll" or "trolling". Can't we have a discussion without throwing those words every second post?
...
Now please, could everyone get back on topic!

I sincerely apologize. But it's hard to not take a person as a troll when he states things like "fanboyism" and "All games, all videos...off-limits to Apple users. But Apple loves you!" I'll stop it here. My apologies again.

 

[fertilized-egg]

Back to the topic of Flash. To me it's clear that Jobs is being his usual control-freak. Basically he wants to take away choices and force developers to develop the things in the way he thinks is beneficial to the iOS platform experience.

No matter how you slice it, you're not likely to get something that's optimized for iOS if there's an easy way of porting cross-platform apps. Ironically, a very good example of this is iTunes on Windows. On Mac, iTunes is good enough however a little chubby. On Windows, iTunes feels very out of place with its odd looking controls by Windows standards and sluggish speed. Things would've been better if Apple tried to make iTunes more optimized for Windows but they didn't.

Is this the "right" way to do things? I don't know and I wouldn't mind seeing Flash videos. However I'd much prefer to see iOS-optimized apps and want to see developers spend effort making the best iOS apps possible instead of taking an easy way out. So for that note I think it'e beneficial.

 

[Jakeblu]

It seems that all the other tablets are starting to offer the full web experience. F is now much better and efficient and looks like it´s never going away, at least for a very long time. The hardware is also much more powerful now.

Did I miss the launch of 'all the other tablets' offering successful flash operation? No I dont think so.

Sorry but the wording of your post is classic trollism

 

[Rodimus Prime]

This whole Flash support issue is inconvenient. Either Apple needs to support Flash, or web developers need to incorporate HTLM5 for non-flash devices. Doesn't Adobe have a tool that converts Flash into HTML5? If so why are so many still using Flash? like Steam, IGN, and many other websites that I visit? from where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like Flash is dead or dying, nor does it look like Apple is budging. The sad thing is, this whole Flash issue has to do with money, profits and control, and there are those of us that just want to browse a website the way it was designed to be viewed, nothing more, nothing less.

Those tools only work in certain places. If you have a lot of custom flash code the tool adobe provides will not allow you to convert straight over. It takes a lot of time and money to switch over.

This is on the OSX side. I can't stress enough how simply perfect Flash has been on the Windows side. This is probably why there are people who swear by Flash and others who swear against it. I'm telling you that for 90% of the market, Flash runs excellently. Seems that it runs well on the iPad too, so I wish Apple would just reconsider. But it's too late, they've already made their choices. This is why Honeycomb/Playbook tablets now have a snowball's chance in hell of catching up to the iPad. They come out of the box with the full web. It's so sad too that Flash runs better on iPad than it does on those other two platforms, yet it's Apple that's unwilling to use it.

Well it is already known and shown apple is locking flash out of a lot of the need API calls that it needs to work correctly forcing abobe to do huge amounts of work arounds that just do not work as well.

Crappy OSX on flash is mostly apple fault.

 

[mKTank]

Did I miss the launch of 'all the other tablets' offering successful flash operation? No I dont think so.

Sorry but the wording of your post is classic trollism

Again with calling people trolls.

From what we've seen so far, most of these tablets are including Flash, and it runs very decently. Notable mention is Playbook with its multitasking.

Those tablets unfortunately probably will never sell as much as the iPad due to how much it's hyped and due to Apple's incredible marketing department, but you have to admit that they're a ton more functional.

Back to the topic of Flash. To me it's clear that Jobs is being his usual control-freak. Basically he wants to take away choices and force developers to develop the things in the way he thinks is beneficial to the iOS platform experience.

No matter how you slice it, you're not likely to get something that's optimized for iOS if there's an easy way of porting cross-platform apps. Ironically, a very good example of this is iTunes on Windows. On Mac, iTunes is good enough however a little chubby. On Windows, iTunes feels very out of place with its odd looking controls by Windows standards and sluggish speed. Things would've been better if Apple tried to make iTunes more optimized for Windows but they didn't.

Is this the "right" way to do things? I don't know and I wouldn't mind seeing Flash videos. However I'd much prefer to see iOS-optimized apps and want to see developers spend effort making the best iOS apps possible instead of taking an easy way out. So for that note I think it'e beneficial.

Lol iTunes on Windows. It runs better on my VM running OSX (I bought it, relax :V) than it does on my Quad-Core desktop.

 

[mKTank]

Well it is already known and shown apple is locking flash out of a lot of the need API calls that it needs to work correctly forcing abobe to do huge amounts of work arounds that just do not work as well.

Crappy OSX on flash is mostly apple fault.

Indeed.

Edit: sorry for the double post.

 

[Jakeblu]

Again with calling people trolls.

From what we've seen so far, most of these tablets are including Flash, and it runs very decently. Notable mention is Playbook with its multitasking.

Noted the word decently and not 'good' or 'great' most reviews of the flash were not that complimentary and again I must ask, did I miss the launch?

Those tablets unfortunately probably will never sell as much as the iPad due to how much it's hyped and due to Apple's incredible marketing department, but you have to admit that they're a ton more functional.

Of course those tablets might not sell as many as the iPad simply because there not as good and no, personally I don't think from what I have seen, they're a ton more functional.

 

[mKTank]

Noted the word decently and not 'good' or 'great' most reviews of the flash were not that complimentary and again I must ask, did I miss the launch?


Of course those tablets might not sell as many as the iPad simply because there not as good and no, personally I don't think from what I have seen, they're a ton more functional.

Then that's a problem with you and your skewed view of the current situation. I won't be able to convince you, but I guess we'll wait and see.

 

[hayesk]

At this point, is there any new information to add? Apple stated their reasons, a lot of people agree, a lot don't, and a lot don't care.

 

[kevink2]

You mean like Flash, Java Applets, Active X, Silverlight, etc?

Probably not.

The iPad will probably never incorporate the full capability to access any and all web sites.

I first got frustrated with Flash support several years ago. On a PC. When there was a bad interaction between Flash animation and Mozilla Firefox. If there was an active flash image displayed, scrolling didn't work. I got in the habit of covering that part of the window with another window just so I could scroll.

This was, after several versions of each, fixed by one side or the other.

 

[cmagnet]

I hope they do offer it on the ipad but i'm sure theres an app for that need to find it and report back, I got Flash on my dell streak finally after an update and now I it feels complete shame about the pad for now though

 

[ApplesAOranges]

By the way, has anyone experienced something like this:

I used Leopard for many years and I never had crashes with Flash in Safari and I mean NEVER. Youtube also worked very fast and just perfectly.

But ever since I upgraded to Snow Leopard I´ve had some crashes with Flash and a bit glitchy experience with Youtube. And I haven´t used Snow Leopard even a year yet. (Otherwise I can´t remember any other complaints with SL).

I don´t understand it.

 

[el-John-o]

If flash is so refined how come flash videos on Hulu are choppy on my dual core 2GHz laptop, but smooth as butter on my 1GHz ARM iPad (which, incidentally, have been converted for the hulu plus app), or flash videos played using skyfire?

Actually, the iDevices are slowly killing flash. I don't miss it, and when a good web developer is creating a new website, right now today, most likely they are going to go to HTML5 or something, because it will not be viewable on an iDevice. The only reason flash still exists, is websites that are already using it, and low budget web-devs who don't have the training to implement anything else.

The college I attend is considering abandoning flash completely in it's web design courses, alot of other universities have already done so (according to those professors advocating it), which basically means the next generation of web developers will not only use something BESIDES flash, they won't even KNOW flash, so give it a few years, flash will be gone. If Adobe is smart, they will refine their products to be more HTML5 oriented. Imagine if Flash (the software suite) actually made h.264 videos or HTML5 content! (It actually might, I don't know it's been a while, but that's where it will be headed.)

Furthermore, Adobe isn't going to die if Flash gets killed. Remember Photoshop and Lightroom are INDUSTRY STANDARDS that are threatened by almost NOTHING except for open source alternatives (translation: Free stuff, so they wouldn't have bought PS or LR anyway), Adobe will be fine even if they cling to Flash.

You mean like Flash, Java Applets, Active X, Silverlight, etc?

Probably not.

The iPad will probably never incorporate the full capability to access any and all web sites.

Yeah, I want a device with my personal information to access the great security hole that is ActiveX so I can view Microsoft.com, sign me up!!

Firefox, Chrome, Safari, etc. also don't support ActiveX or Silverlight, and combined they outnumber IE (in other words, ActiveX and Silverlight support is in the minority). Java Applets would be cool, but flash... eh.

 

[uberamd]

I'm talking technically. HTML5 technically couldn't achieve something that a simple Flash presentation like Farmville could.

Really? Oh crap! A world without farmville is a world that I don't want to live in.

Also, running some HTML5 demos on the iPad, it's quite sad how slow and glitchy it all is. I'd believe Apple if HTML5 ran well on the iPad, but it doesn't.

Really? I have had a very smooth HTML5 experience on the iPad, whether it be video or otherwise.

Doesn't seem like it. More and more devices are getting Flash, and Flash is getting faster with every release. Right now, aside from the moral argument of closed vs. open (also, it's funny that Apple has any say when it comes to open vs. closed,) Flash is a much more capable, much more supported, much faster, and much more practical format. HTML5 could catch up in...5 years? Is it really a good idea to migrate everyone to a format so immature 5 years early? I disagree.

5 years? Really? Do you remember where we were back in 2005/2006? Web technologies, not including Flash, have evolved tremendously since then. Flash was never intended to be a video container, yet thats what 99% of people use it for. I can play a Flash video in one tab, and an HTML5 video in another tab and have the SAME user experience without the CPU usage and unnecessary battery drain. Oh, and integrating an HTML5 video in a website is as trivial as using the <video/> tag, no need to embed objects and use a 3rd party Flash video container.

But Apple is stuck to their childish roots and thus they're screwing millions of people out of rich web experience.

They aren't screwing anyone. People know about no Flash when they buy the product, so not having Flash isn't being screwed. Instead, being screwed is when you buy a car and the dealership doesn't tell you that it will explode after you travel 3 miles. Big difference.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

Another "by the way"...

Is there any reason why the iPad 2 couldn´t have similar specs (CPU, RAM) like the MBA? I mean they are about the same size.

 

[el-John-o]

Another "by the way"...

Is there any reason why the iPad 2 couldn´t have similar specs (CPU, RAM) like the MBA? I mean they are about the same size.

Well, for one, the iPad is going to remain an iOS device. There might in the future be a SEPERATE OSX Tablet (like a Macbook air that is a convertible or something), but the iPad will be iOS. iOS runs on ARM processors, so it could easily have up to 4GB of RAM like the MBA (but, what for? It runs OK with 256MB right now, 4GB is kind of excessive, but in theory it could), and Samsung has the technologies for dual-core ARM processors, but no, iOS couldn't run on a Core2Duo or whatever.

Furthermore, the MBA has fans. I firmly believe Apple will stay FAR away from fans on the iPad, and heat altogether. These ARM processors don't produce much heat, the iPad stays cool and doesn't require noisy heat-blowing fans! The iPad will be passively cooled for as long as the technology makes it possible. (But eventually even ARM processors will get hot, Intel didn't even use HEATSINKS, PERIOD until the 386, fans until Pentium, and the G3 Mac Cube had no fans! But look at us now!)

 

[ApplesAOranges]

Well, for one, the iPad is going to remain an iOS device. There might in the future be a SEPERATE OSX Tablet (like a Macbook air that is a convertible or something), but the iPad will be iOS. iOS runs on ARM processors, so it could easily have up to 4GB of RAM like the MBA (but, what for? It runs OK with 256MB right now, 4GB is kind of excessive, but in theory it could), and Samsung has the technologies for dual-core ARM processors, but no, iOS couldn't run on a Core2Duo or whatever.

Furthermore, the MBA has fans. I firmly believe Apple will stay FAR away from fans on the iPad, and heat altogether. These ARM processors don't produce much heat, the iPad stays cool and doesn't require noisy heat-blowing fans! The iPad will be passively cooled for as long as the technology makes it possible. (But eventually even ARM processors will get hot, Intel didn't even use HEATSINKS, PERIOD until the 386, fans until Pentium, and the G3 Mac Cube had no fans! But look at us now!)

Thanks for explanation! Makes sense.

Totally forgot that MBA has a fan. That´s one point for the iPad, but then again MBA is much more powerful... dilemmas dilemmas...

 

[Piggie]

Well, for one, the iPad is going to remain an iOS device. There might in the future be a SEPERATE OSX Tablet (like a Macbook air that is a convertible or something), but the iPad will be iOS. iOS runs on ARM processors, so it could easily have up to 4GB of RAM like the MBA (but, what for? It runs OK with 256MB right now, 4GB is kind of excessive, but in theory it could), and Samsung has the technologies for dual-core ARM processors, but no, iOS couldn't run on a Core2Duo or whatever.

I don't understand this.

Mac's used to be Power PC and Apple lovers used to use this as another reason why Mac's were so superior to PC's on Intel.

Till it was decided by Apple to jump ship over to Intel and OSX now runs on Intel.

Am I wrong?

I don't see why a Intel Core i7 running at 4 Ghz would have any issues running iOS if it was coded to.

Be nice and quick too

 

[NebulaClash]

*sigh*

I do get sick of these Flash discussions on here that never go anywhere. Philosophically I'm in favor of Web standards (sit down, Adobe, I didn't say proprietary standards), so I look forward to the time when HTML 5 replaces Flash by providing all the tools people need for animation (not there yet). Until that day, we have to have these arguments.

 

[Joseph Kool]

And yes, I´m talking about the infamous "F word".

It seems that all the other tablets are starting to offer the full web experience. F is now much better and efficient and looks like it´s never going away, at least for a very long time. The hardware is also much more powerful now.

Will Apple swallow their pride? Ever? iPad 2? Maybe 3?

Or do we who would like a full web in a tablet device have to start looking elsewhere? Or maybe just get a MBA then?

Contrary to what some misguided fans would have you believe Apple sees Flash as a major threat to the app store and their bottom dollar. So they are on a mission to turn people against Flash, but the problem is Flash runs perfectly fine on PC's which are 90 percent of the home computer market. Their claims of Flash not being able to run on a mobile device are pure BS. Flash runs just fine on current top of the line Android phones with the next generation of smartphones having dual core CPU's and much improved graphics Apple will need to find a new lame excuse.

The really scary thing is how easily Steve Jobs is able to make his followers hate anything he wants. I wonder if these people all share the same brain because they obviously can't think for themselves. Atleast give your costumers the choice to turn Flash off if they don't like it. What's wrong with having a choice?

As for html5 I find it amusing to see people who know nothing about it proclaim it the greatest thing since the wheel. It's currently a steaming pile of crap which requires just as much if not more system resources. Forget the fact that it can't do nearly as much as Flash.

 

[NebulaClash]

Oh, many of us have hated Flash for years, long before Steve said anything. It does not run well on many PCs, and Adobe has an odious history of burrowing its stuff deep into your system so that you cannot root it out. I hate them for this behavior.

HTML 5 is the future because it is the open standard that anyone can use. It may not be ready yet, but it will get there. Flash will either die or be ghettoized into a hard-core group of users who depend on it and will refuse to switch to open standards.

The Web should be about open standards. If it's proprietary, it's dangerous for you become dependent on one company calling the shots. That's why Steve Jobs didn't want Flash -- he didn't want his company held hostage by Adobe (and there's a history between the two companies, as we all remember).

 

[el-John-o]

I don't understand this.

Mac's used to be Power PC and Apple lovers used to use this as another reason why Mac's were so superior to PC's on Intel.

Till it was decided by Apple to jump ship over to Intel and OSX now runs on Intel.

Am I wrong?

I don't see why a Intel Core i7 running at 4 Ghz would have any issues running iOS if it was coded to.

Be nice and quick too

OSX was originally CODED to run on PowerPC CPU's, that's why you CANNOT run OS 9 (a PowerPC OS) on an intel Mac. So, in theory, iOS could be REBUILT to run on x86 CPU's, but ALL current apps would no longer work, and battery life, etc. would be less. ARM processors are COMPLETELY mobile processors, they sip power and are the best solution.

The biggest reason, again, is current iOS versions and all current software would not work if Apple rebuilt iOS to run on x86 CPU's (x86 refers to CPU's that a modern PC runs on, like Intel, AMD, Via, etc. make) Just like software for PowerPC Macs won't run on Intel Macs unless they were specifically compiled to do so.

The reason there was such a stink about switching to intel (other than the fact that traditionally, PowerPC processors were a smidge quicker than the competing intel offering), was because all of the software people loved would no longer work, unless the developer released an Intel Mac OSX version. Now, it doesn't matter, the CPUs are fast enough to run emulators that run PowerPC software, but a few years ago when the Intel switch happened, emulators would not run modern PowerPC software smoothly, make sense?

Oh, many of us have hated Flash for years, long before Steve said anything. It does not run well on many PCs, and Adobe has an odious history of burrowing its stuff deep into your system so that you cannot root it out. I hate them for this behavior.

HTML 5 is the future because it is the open standard that anyone can use. It may not be ready yet, but it will get there. Flash will either die or be ghettoized into a hard-core group of users who depend on it and will refuse to switch to open standards.

The Web should be about open standards. If it's proprietary, it's dangerous for you become dependent on one company calling the shots. That's why Steve Jobs didn't want Flash -- he didn't want his company held hostage by Adobe (and there's a history between the two companies, as we all remember).

Absolutely, I remember hearing Patrick Norton on "The Screen Savers" talk about "Adobe Crash" and it's various problems with Windows 2000 when it came out, so yes, it's been junk long before Steve called it Junk!

 

[Winni]

Depth? How can one put "depth" and "Flash games" in one sentence?

It's simple. Unlike you, we've all seen and played Machinarium and Samorost and know what can be done with Flash.

Games like Plants vs Zombies or Angry Birds can EASILY be made with Flash.

But let me some up all those anti-Flash arguments here: "Steve Jobs blah blah blah Steve Jobs blah blah blah."