So will Apple ever offer us the full web in a tablet device like the others do?

[BaldiMac]

Contrary to what some misguided fans would have you believe Apple sees Flash as a major threat to the app store and their bottom dollar.

Is there any reason to present your theory as fact? You have no evidence to back it up. And it makes little sense if you examine it critically.

So they are on a mission to turn people against Flash, but the problem is Flash runs perfectly fine on PC's which are 90 percent of the home computer market.

Which has nothing to do with the mobile market.

Their claims of Flash not being able to run on a mobile device are pure BS.

True. You just made the claim up yourself. No one else is making that claim.

Flash runs just fine on current top of the line Android phones with the next generation of smartphones having dual core CPU's and much improved graphics Apple will need to find a new lame excuse.

Apple's "excuse" was not only about performance. And their actual performance claims have not been addressed.

The really scary thing is how easily Steve Jobs is able to make his followers hate anything he wants. I wonder if these people all share the same brain because they obviously can't think for themselves.

Because anyone that disagrees with you must be brainwashed.

Atleast give your costumers the choice to turn Flash off if they don't like it. What's wrong with having a choice?

The problem with the choice you describe is that it gives developers a crutch that will delay the implementation of HTML5 and related technologies. By not providing a switch, Apple has forced developers to provide flash alternative solutions. That way, those of us who choose not to use flash have more content available to us.

As for html5 I find it amusing to see people who know nothing about it proclaim it the greatest thing since the wheel. It's currently a steaming pile of crap which requires just as much if not more system resources. Forget the fact that it can't do nearly as much as Flash.

I think most people understand that it is an emerging technology that cannot currently replace everything that Flash does. Your "steaming pile of crap which requires just as much if not more system resources" comment shows as much ignorance as any view from the other side. Yes, canvas is currently much more inefficient than Flash for most animation. But there is more to HTML5 than animation. For example, video delivery can be more efficient than Flash in general.

But let me some up all those anti-Flash arguments here: "Steve Jobs blah blah blah Steve Jobs blah blah blah."

Which is why these arguments never progress. When all you do is "sum up" the other sides arguments into "blah," you're not really having a real discussion.

 

[Tom G.]

To get back to the original question,

"So will Apple ever offer us the full web in a tablet device like the others do?"

Simple answer; there are no others, just wannabes.

 

[NebulaClash]

When the Web gets rid of proprietary stuff and just uses open standards, the iPad (and everything else) will run 100% of the Web. Right now even if Apple allowed Flash, I would avoid it myself.

 

[yodaxl7]

And yes, I´m talking about the infamous "F word".

It seems that all the other tablets are starting to offer the full web experience. F is now much better and efficient and looks like it´s never going away, at least for a very long time. The hardware is also much more powerful now.

Will Apple swallow their pride? Ever? iPad 2? Maybe 3?

Or do we who would like a full web in a tablet device have to start looking elsewhere? Or maybe just get a MBA then?

Guess, it depends on the techie out there who are pushing html5. Most sites are converting to that format due to apple's successes.

 

[vvswarup]

Double-standards

Yup! Its about capitalizing on the market and securing future proceeds. Apple is a shroud company and will alway be looking for the next itunes, app store, and now mac store.

Businesses exist to make money, but that's beside the point.

The HTML5 standard is being stewarded by a standards committee. Adobe, Microsoft and Apple sit on this committee. Did you know that Adobe has been doing everything it can to stall the committee on HTML5? I think not. What could be the reason for this? The M-word!

Adobe gets royalties from content created in Flash. That's why Adobe doesn't want HTML5 to emerge as a competitor. If HTML5 emerges, the Web community is no longer beholden to Adobe, meaning its revenue stream from Flash is gone. By stalling the work on HTML5, Adobe is protecting its revenue stream. If you criticize Apple for SUPPOSEDLY banning Flash to protect the revenue from iTunes (which is patently false, by the way), then you have to criticize Adobe. What difference do you see between the actions of the two companies?

 

[el-John-o]

Businesses exist to make money, but that's beside the point.

The HTML5 standard is being stewarded by a standards committee. Adobe, Microsoft and Apple sit on this committee. Did you know that Adobe has been doing everything it can to stall the committee on HTML5? I think not. What could be the reason for this? The M-word!

Adobe gets royalties from content created in Flash. That's why Adobe doesn't want HTML5 to emerge as a competitor. If HTML5 emerges, the Web community is no longer beholden to Adobe, meaning its revenue stream from Flash is gone. By stalling the work on HTML5, Adobe is protecting its revenue stream. If you criticize Apple for SUPPOSEDLY banning Flash to protect the revenue from iTunes (which is patently false, by the way), then you have to criticize Adobe. What difference do you see between the actions of the two companies?

One is Apple, the other is Adobe. Now that Apple is on top of the world, people need a new underdog, enter Adobe. Duh.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

When the Web gets rid of proprietary stuff and just uses open standards...

Yes, but will that EVER happen? Because I don´t see it happening in the near future.

 

[NebulaClash]

Yes, but will that EVER happen? Because I don´t see it happening in the near future.

No, probably not completely. There will always be pockets of proprietary software for specialized use, and private use. But the idea that most video would be in a proprietary format is absurd, and should never have gotten to this point.

 

[poloponies]

It's simple. Unlike you, we've all seen and played Machinarium and Samorost and know what can be done with Flash.

Games like Plants vs Zombies or Angry Birds can EASILY be made with Flash.

But let me some up all those anti-Flash arguments here: "Steve Jobs blah blah blah Steve Jobs blah blah blah."

Where is this magical place in which you live where Flash never causes any problems or sends your notebook's fan into pre-orbit mode? Yes, you can do a lot with flash on the creative end. That doesn't necessarily translate into a good user experience.

 

[bossxii]

It's no secret that flash eats battery and can cripple most mobile devices and low powered laptops, not to mention any OSX based computer.

IF... and IF is a long shot at best, Adobe ever decided to create a product that works well on mobile devices I'm not opposed to using such a device, but so far they have failed to do so. I've used several Android based phones, flash is a joke, horrible play back, kills battery life and crashes. Even on my Win 7 PC Chrome crashes on a fairly regular basis due to flash. I've tried several different versions, same poor results. I'm sure it may run well on IE, but that's an entirely different topic.

Adobe has just been to lazy for to many years sucking up profits from the fact flash was on every Windows machine out there. Now mobile OS's that don't have the power to run it's bloated, buggy code, they are to far behind to fix it. Just as the floppy drive faded away, more efficient tech will emerge and let Flash fade away into the history books. Adapt and overcome, or die trying.

With a few dual core tablets and phones coming out, that may keep Flash alive a bit longer but I think it will die a long, slow death either way. It had a long run but it's simply not the best option for the future.

So to the OP... Yes Apple will deliver a tablet that will deliver the full web, it just maybe a day when Flash is not the major video delivery system. I don't see SJ backing down to allow Flash to run on any iOS device.

 

[NebulaClash]

The post-PC era is catching a lot of companies by surprise. They just weren't properly positioned for the Tablet Era. You can see them scrambling in the marketplace to catch up, and companies such as Adobe are caught in a bad position. They went from a near monopoly position on the PC (pretty much everyone installed Flash), to a world where a good chunk of the market cannot use their product.

Web site owners who see a steady stream of users who come to their site and then don't stick around as soon as they see Flash could take one of two attitudes:

1. Stupid users, buy something else that runs Flash so you can see my site!

2. Uh oh, I'm using a technology that locks out potential users.

Smart site owners don't demand users bend to their will, they bend to the user's will.

And remember the original promise of the Web: Site owners are NOT supposed to know what equipment their users are using, and it DOES NOT MATTER. They just create content and let the user's equipment interpret that content in a way that makes sense for that equipment. The moment a site creates content that DEMANDS a user bend to the site's needs, they have lost the spirit of the Web.

Philosophically, this is why I think Flash is doomed. It is counter to the spirit of the Web in this post-PC era.

 

[Phil A.]

And yes, I´m talking about the infamous "F word".

It seems that all the other tablets are starting to offer the full web experience. F is now much better and efficient and looks like it´s never going away, at least for a very long time. The hardware is also much more powerful now.

Will Apple swallow their pride? Ever? iPad 2? Maybe 3?

Or do we who would like a full web in a tablet device have to start looking elsewhere? Or maybe just get a MBA then?

So, which tablet (except full PC spec tablets) supports Silverlight, Java, ActiveX or any of a number of other proprietary plugins?

Until they do, they don't offer the "full web" by your own definition

With Flash, android tablets admittedly offer access to a greater percentage of web sites than iOS devices do, but they still don't offer access to every page that's out there...

 

[Saladinos]

^this.

Flash threatens Apple's ability to skim profits from everything served on an i-device. Even if (when) it runs more efficiently than HTML Canvas and JavaScript, they will still try to marginalize it (because that serves their bottom line)

That argument just makes no sense at all. If that was the case, why would Apple be pushing web standards (from which they make no money)?

This is a technical and user experience decision. Not a financial one. Flash needs to be "optimised" by Adobe even for a new x86 unit like the MBA. It does not allow the industry to innovate, because you can't write your own implementation if you need to. If Adobe think you're not worth the effort (see the Mac, Linux, all 64-bit OSes), you're stuck with a poor web experience and there's nothing you can do about it.

The long term benefits are too worth it for Apple to cede. Higher HTML5 adoption will expand the kinds of devices you can make significantly.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

I think that the average user doesn´t know or care about this "Apple´s war against Flash". They just suffer because of it. They just want to view their web pages as they have used to view with their laptop and desktop computers.

So I think some regular (ignorant) people will be disappointed with iPad and many won´t buy it just because of this reason, like me for example.

Apple will have to offer pretty incredible other features to compensate the lack of Flash with iPad 2. We´ll see if they can do it...

 

[Night Spring]

I think that the average user doesn´t know or care about this "Apple´s war against Flash". They just suffer because of it. They just want to view their web pages as they have used to view with their laptop and desktop computers.

So I think some regular (ignorant) people will be disappointed with iPad and many won´t buy it just because of this reason, like me for example.

Apple will have to offer pretty incredible other features to compensate the lack of Flash with iPad 2. We´ll see if they can do it...

While I suppose it's true that some people don't buy or return the iPad because of lack of flash, I think the outstanding sales numbers for the first gen iPad shows that Apple already offers enough features on the iPad to overcome this flaw. Either that, or the number of people for whom lack of flash is a deal-breaker isn't big enough to make a significant dent in sales numbers.

Either way, I doubt it's a big factor in Apple's design/feature decisions for the 2nd gen iPad.

 

[BaldiMac]

I think that the average user doesn´t know or care about this "Apple´s war against Flash".

Mostly because there is no war. Apple chose not to include Flash. They explained why. Forums and blogs have turned it into an argument.

They just suffer because of it.

Seriously, not being able to view flash results in suffering? I'd say a large percentage of the world has a different concept of suffering.

They just want to view their web pages as they have used to view with their laptop and desktop computers.

"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse."

So I think some regular (ignorant) people will be disappointed with iPad and many won´t buy it just because of this reason, like me for example.

True. Just like most other products in the world.

Apple will have to offer pretty incredible other features to compensate the lack of Flash with iPad 2. We´ll see if they can do it...

They've managed to do it for four years with the iPhone and iPod touch. But wasn't your premise that the "average user doesn't know or care about" this controversy? Maybe they won't have to compensate much at all.

While I suppose it's true that some people don't buy or return the iPad because of lack of flash, I think the outstanding sales numbers for the first gen iPad shows that Apple already offers enough features on the iPad to overcome this flaw. Either that, or the number of people for whom lack of flash is a deal-breaker isn't big enough to make a significant dent in sales numbers.

Either way, I doubt it's a big factor in Apple's design/feature decisions for the 2nd gen iPad.

A flash advocate posted the results of a survey that found that 11% of iPad owners considered the lack of Flash to be the iPad's biggest shortcoming. Of course, that is approximately the same number that considered screen smudges to be the biggest shortcoming.

 

[mKTank]

Contrary to what some misguided fans would have you believe Apple sees Flash as a major threat to the app store and their bottom dollar. So they are on a mission to turn people against Flash, but the problem is Flash runs perfectly fine on PC's which are 90 percent of the home computer market. Their claims of Flash not being able to run on a mobile device are pure BS. Flash runs just fine on current top of the line Android phones with the next generation of smartphones having dual core CPU's and much improved graphics Apple will need to find a new lame excuse.

The really scary thing is how easily Steve Jobs is able to make his followers hate anything he wants. I wonder if these people all share the same brain because they obviously can't think for themselves. Atleast give your costumers the choice to turn Flash off if they don't like it. What's wrong with having a choice?

As for html5 I find it amusing to see people who know nothing about it proclaim it the greatest thing since the wheel. It's currently a steaming pile of crap which requires just as much if not more system resources. Forget the fact that it can't do nearly as much as Flash.

Wow. Couldn't have said it better. Stevie convinced them to hate Blu-ray and USB3.0 too. Problem for Steve here is that 90% of the market is willing to adopt Flash, Blu-ray, and USB 3.0 with open arms. I do like how 10% of the market think they control anything or might be responsible for killing off a major web standard.

 

[Carouser]

It's simple. Unlike you, we've all seen and played Machinarium and Samorost and know what can be done with Flash. Games like Plants vs Zombies or Angry Birds can EASILY be made with Flash

What? Who is this 'we' that have all played some obscure Flash nerdgames?
Also, PvZ and Angry Birds can easily be made with Flash. But they don't need to be, at all. In any case, the ability to play some trivial games isn't a great argument for Apple opening iOS to Flash.

I think that the average user doesn´t know or care about this "Apple´s war against Flash". They just suffer because of it. They just want to view their web pages as they have used to view with their laptop and desktop computers.

So I think some regular (ignorant) people will be disappointed with iPad and many won´t buy it just because of this reason, like me for example.

You (and many others) assume that when a user can't read a Flash web page on the iPad that they blame the iPad. However, it is quite believable that when a web page doesn't work on the iPad that many people blame the web page, and rightfully so. I use iOS and when I visit a page that runs Flash I resent the web page designer, not the device, and I go visit another web page instead.

The moral of the story: Flash can't exist without the web, but the web can exist fully without Flash.

 

[Aatos.1]

Apple's greatest fear is freedom. It will never happen.

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple's greatest fear is freedom. It will never happen.

Then why are they promoting an open standard over a proprietary solution?

Apple doesn't fear freedom because they believe they make the best devices. They are willing to cede control to a standards committee. Just not to another company.

 

[Aatos.1]

The really scary thing is how easily Steve Jobs is able to make his followers hate anything he wants. I wonder if these people all share the same brain because they obviously can't think for themselves.

It's a basic fact that vast numbers of people are lazy and have no interest in making an effort to educate themselves. Fearing the decision making process, they welcome having Steve tell them what to do. They are free of any responsibility. A position that makes them feel safe. Pointing to other users who've also done as they're told, everyone feels safe amongst the group. Steve takes their money and they're left with a sense of validation. Everyone in that world is fat & happy.

 

[Carouser]

It's a basic fact that vast numbers of people are lazy and have no interest in making an effort to educate themselves. Fearing the decision making process, they welcome having Steve tell them what to do. They are free of any responsibility. A position that makes them feel safe. Pointing to other users who've also done as they're told, everyone feels safe amongst the group. Steve takes their money and they're left with a sense of validation. Everyone in that world is fat & happy.

This is brilliant. Let me try:

'It's a basic fact that vast numbers of people are insecure and think a little computer knowledge gives them deep insight into the technology market. When computers become accessible and popular, they fear losing the meager authority their irrelevant knowledge might have given them. They have lost any status. A position that made them feel superior to others. Pointing to other users who are happy with their lives, they call them 'sheep' to reinforce a sense of self as a "free thinker" who is above it all. Steve still takes their money and they're left with a sense of resentment. Everyone in that world is fat and sad.'

How'd I do?

 

[BaldiMac]

It's a basic fact that vast numbers of people are lazy and have no interest in making an effort to educate themselves. Fearing the decision making process, they welcome having Steve tell them what to do. They are free of any responsibility. A position that makes them feel safe. Pointing to other users who've also done as they're told, everyone feels safe amongst the group. Steve takes their money and they're left with a sense of validation. Everyone in that world is fat & happy.

I believe this ranks among the most self-centric views of the world that I have ever seen in these forums. It's right up there with the "my hard drive failed after 2 years so Apple's quality control must be the worst in the industry."

 

[Night Spring]

I believe this ranks among the most self-centric views of the world that I have ever seen in these forums. It's right up there with the "my hard drive failed after 2 years so Apple's quality control must be the worst in the industry."

I think you missed the sarcasm.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

I believe this ranks among the most self-centric views of the world that I have ever seen in these forums. It's right up there with the "my hard drive failed after 2 years so Apple's quality control must be the worst in the industry."

How so?

I might also not agree complitely, but I think that there´s little bit truth in what the guy posted. And I see it everyday in these forums.

I know certainly (in my experience in the real world) that most people outside of the "Apple´s 10% world" think this way about Apple and their fans/customers.