So will Apple ever offer us the full web in a tablet device like the others do?

[bpaluzzi]

Maybe I should change the title to:

So will web page developers ever offer us the full web just using HTML5?

As much as I would like this to happen, I just don´t see it happening... perhaps never! It looks like Flash is here to stay for a very very long time.

I only see Flash becoming more popular. And all the other tablet devices are starting to use it and it looks like Flash is running great on these new tablets.

I hate those Flash based menus on my iPhone. I literally can´t use some of my favorite pages with iPhone, ´cause those menus just won´t work. Isn´t Apple suppose to be "it just works". I can forgive this with iPhone, but a tablet size 10", no way!

So are the web page developers the bad guys here, because they continue to use Flash?

Web developers are very, very quickly turning away from Flash. Universities aren't teaching it. The digital agency I worked at has moved almost all of the former flash developers into iOS development. It's going away, and the iOS devices are the reason why.

iOS device users are an _EXTREMELY_ desirable demographic. Quantity of users aside, these are extremely high-quality users (from a marketing / sales standpoint -- disposable income, tech-savvy, etc). Companies don't want to lose these users. Agencies that are pitching flash-only solutions are losing bids.

Flash will stick around for things that it's good at -- delivering rich media applications over the web, interfacing with video camera, etc. However, the days of full websites being developed in Flash, or of Flash being a core way that you interact with the web are very close to being over. It'll be like the almost overnight drop of Java applets as primary navigation/menus, etc.

Just an opinion from someone who, you know, actually does this for a living ;-)

 

[vant]

Flash is going away.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

Flash is going away.

When?

 

[Nishi100]

Flash is going away, by 2020.

FTFY

Flash is still used and, I know, that I don't want to wait approx. 10 years to view all types of websites on my iPod / iPad. Google allowed flash on their OS because, currently, a lot of websites still use it.

All I want flash for is:
- Videos.
- Flash websites.

Games - no, I've got the app store. However, if Apple allows flash, then the app store purchases will decrease.

 

[ssdeg7]

Three years later and people still want flash in their phones and tablets? Flash is old stuff, flash is a battery killer, even though I wouldn't use flash maybe there should be an alternative for people who have been whining about it for years stop crying and can use it.

 

[jamesryanbell]

I just don't want people to like/rely on Flash. Just assume it's going away, and assume you're ahead of the curve for not supporting it.

(halfway kidding)

 

[Piggie]

The problem is, real web sites still use flash and real people want to access those web sites, and it's as simple as that really.

Just today, I needed to access a web site from work to order an urgent item we need, and the company has their on-line catalogue in flash.

Whilst some may argue that's a bad idea, they do, and my boss needed me to order the item.

That's my real world.

In 5 years time when perhaps this company makes a HTML5 version of their web site then it won't matter, but today it does.

Which is why I'd have to say iOS must be regarded as toys in this regard and not tools, as in business you don't have time to mess about if things don't work, you need it to work fast and get things done.

 

[BaldiMac]

The problem is, real web sites still use flash and real people want to access those web sites, and it's as simple as that really.

And those real people that want to use flash on their mobile device should not choose iOS devices. Pretty simple.

Just today, I needed to access a web site from work to order an urgent item we need, and the company has their on-line catalogue in flash.

Whilst some may argue that's a bad idea, they do, and my boss needed me to order the item.

That's my real world.

Super example. It's not everyone's world.

In 5 years time when perhaps this company makes a HTML5 version of their web site then it won't matter, but today it does.

To some people.

Which is why I'd have to say iOS must be regarded as toys in this regard and not tools, as in business you don't have time to mess about if things don't work, you need it to work fast and get things done.

And there are millions of people whose business does not require flash access. Is it still a toy for them if they can get done what they need to professionally?

 

[Piggie]

And those real people that want to use flash on their mobile device should not choose iOS devices. Pretty simple.



Super example. It's not everyone's world.



To some people.



And there are millions of people whose business does not require flash access. Is it still a toy for them if they can get done what they need to professionally?

The point you are missing is, I'm talking about real business. If your boss is urgently expecting something and you go to a site, it could be any site in the world, when the deadline hits in say a hours time, as you going to tell your boss, sorry I've let you down as my device would not let me see that site as it's got some Flash based information on it.

No, as he'd probably blow you out if you gave him a pathetic excuse such as that. He'd expect you to use a device that would work. You don't put artificial limitations in the way of getting a job done in business. At home, it may not matter, in a meeting to jot some notes down with it may not matter, but for a company that needs to be able to access anything it wishes it matters.

I just wish the problem would be sorted out by the people at the top, Apple and Adobe, and not have the problem passed down to the consumers who want to use the devices.

 

[Night Spring]

The point you are missing is, I'm talking about real business. If your boss is urgently expecting something and you go to a site, it could be any site in the world, when the deadline hits in say a hours time, as you going to tell your boss, sorry I've let you down as my device would not let me see that site as it's got some Flash based information on it.

No, as he'd probably blow you out if you gave him a pathetic excuse such as that. He'd expect you to use a device that would work. You don't put artificial limitations in the way of getting a job done in business. At home, it may not matter, in a meeting to jot some notes down with it may not matter, but for a company that needs to be able to access anything it wishes it matters.

I just wish the problem would be sorted out by the people at the top, Apple and Adobe, and not have the problem passed down to the consumers who want to use the devices.

In that situation, you obviously run to the nearest computer and place your order. Then you relax at home with the iPad in your lap, or jot down notes in the meeting on your iPad.

Okay, so maybe not having flash does limit the usefulness of the iPad, but no tool we have is perfect. In real life, if a tool is not adequate for the job at hand, you drop it and pick up a more suitable one. I'm sure Apple and Adobe would have found a way to compromise if iOS were the only way people had to access websites. But it's not, there are other tools for that, which is why they can both afford to be stubborn and cring to their respective positions.

 

[BaldiMac]

The point you are missing is, I'm talking about real business. If your boss is urgently expecting something and you go to a site, it could be any site in the world, when the deadline hits in say a hours time, as you going to tell your boss, sorry I've let you down as my device would not let me see that site as it's got some Flash based information on it.

No, as he'd probably blow you out if you gave him a pathetic excuse such as that. He'd expect you to use a device that would work. You don't put artificial limitations in the way of getting a job done in business. At home, it may not matter, in a meeting to jot some notes down with it may not matter, but for a company that needs to be able to access anything it wishes it matters.

I work in real business, and there is no reason I would ever need to visit a site with flash. Amazingly, there are a lot of real jobs in real businesses in the world that don't involve surfing the internet.

I just wish the problem would be sorted out by the people at the top, Apple and Adobe, and not have the problem passed down to the consumers who want to use the devices.

It's not a problem that Apple needs to sort out. Apple decided not to support Flash on iOS devices. I decided to never wear green pants. The world moves on.

 

[Carouser]

The point you are missing is, I'm talking about real business. If your boss is urgently expecting something and you go to a site, it could be any site in the world, when the deadline hits in say a hours time, as you going to tell your boss, sorry I've let you down as my device would not let me see that site as it's got some Flash based information on it.

Some of us don't work in 'real business' then (we must work in fake business, I guess). If we have a job to do, one which has these bizarro impromptu deadlines, then we will have the right tools for the job, namely, something other than an iPhone or an iPad. This means that iOS is...???? I have no idea what your argument is.

I can't even imagine what sort of job this is, where:
(1) the only tools accessible are an iPhone or iPad
(2) you have a surprise deadline of an hour
(3) you need to access Flash information that you can't get any other way (by calling the company, for example)
(4) your boss is such a moron that she or he would be managing this weirdo scenario and getting mad when it can't be satisfied

And even if this is true, so what? CAD operators can't rely solely on iOS either. Oh no, iOS is 'a toy' and not for 'real' work. This conclusion is worthless and more of the FUD that's been appearing all over this forum lately.

 

[Piggie]

I work in real business, and there is no reason I would ever need to visit a site with flash. Amazingly, there are a lot of real jobs in real businesses in the world that don't involve surfing the internet.



It's not a problem that Apple needs to sort out. Apple decided not to support Flash on iOS devices. I decided to never wear green pants. The world moves on.

Ok, well perhaps you are the boss of your company?

I'd not want to look foolish the the chairman director when he asked me, perhaps in front of others to access a web site and I had to say sorry I can't access that one as my device can't show it.

My point still stands, in business you can't mess about or play games, you need things to always work, and work now and work correctly.

As such you can have petty flash wars getting in the way of what you want to do.
Not that I'm saying the iPad is not great, it is, it's just not suitable for certain uses, and you need tools that will allow you do do everything.

 

[Night Spring]

Not that I'm saying the iPad is not great, it is, it's just not suitable for certain uses, and you need tools that will allow you do do everything.

So you do what I'm doing now, which is have both the iPad and a MacBook Air in your bag. Now you're ready for anything!

 

[RedWings]

So people are actually defending Apple's stance on not integrating Flash into their mobile device's browsers?

Wow. That is true fanboyism.

 

[BaldiMac]

Ok, well perhaps you are the boss of your company?

I'd not want to look foolish the the chairman director when he asked me, perhaps in front of others to access a web site and I had to say sorry I can't access that one as my device can't show it.

Is it really beyond your comprehension that jobs exist that don't require access to the whole of the internet? I need access to email and the corporate intranet.

But again, if you have one of those jobs that require Flash access, don't buy an iOS device for work.

My point still stands, in business you can't mess about or play games, you need things to always work, and work now and work correctly.

What do you do if that content is in Silverlight? Or the dreaded "designed for IE 6." You're fired.

As such you can have petty flash wars getting in the way of what you want to do.

There is no war. There is just arguments on forums and blogs.

Not that I'm saying the iPad is not great, it is, it's just not suitable for certain uses,

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

and you need tools that will allow you do do everything.

Let me know when you find such a magical tool. Unless by "everything" you just meant "run flash".

My tool does what I bought it to do.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

The point is that now that all the other competitors (the majority) are starting include Flash on their tablets and it seems to run just great, I don´t see why the web developers would ever abandon Flash. Maybe there will be even more Flash sites from now on...

And then this "Apple´s war" will backfire and they are screwed. The industry will laugh at Apple being the only one with non Flash devices.

So you do what I'm doing now, which is have both the iPad and a MacBook Air in your bag. Now you're ready for anything!

And that was probably Apple´s plan all along and you went for it!

Maybe next Apple will exclude the iPod from the iPhone, so everyone has to buy an iPhone AND an separate iPod!

 

[NebulaClash]

Ok, well perhaps you are the boss of your company?

I'd not want to look foolish the the chairman director when he asked me, perhaps in front of others to access a web site and I had to say sorry I can't access that one as my device can't show it.

My point still stands, in business you can't mess about or play games, you need things to always work, and work now and work correctly.

What a weird work environment you've got. If I were thrust into such a world (well, I'd quit if I were being treated like that, but for the sake of this argument I'll pretend I would allow myself to be treated like dirt), I'd say to the chairman director, "Sorry, that site stupidly chose to use Flash, so I can't read it. Let me find you a better site that follows Web standards."

 

[ApplesAOranges]

There is no war. There is just arguments on forums and blogs.

Oh, yeah right!

You seem to forget Steve´s open letter bashing Flash. If that wasn´t a call to war then I don´t know what is. Then there is the Adobe CEO´s response basically calling Steve a liar. So there you go!

 

[BaldiMac]

The point is that now that all the other competitors (the 90% majority) are starting include Flash on their tablets and it seems to run just great, I don´t see why the web developers would ever abandon Flash. Maybe there will be even more Flash sites from now on...

90% of what?

And then this "Apple´s war" will backfire and they are screwed. The industry will laugh at Apple being the only one with non Flash devices.

There is no war. There was a single decision.

Oh, yeah right!

You seem to forget Steve´s open letter bashing Flash. If that wasn´t a call to war then I don´t know what is. Then there is the Adobe CEO´s response basically calling Steve a liar. So there you go!

You say bashing. I say he provided a list of reasons that they chose not to use Flash on iOS devices.

Adobe's CEO basically called him a liar, but neglected to point out any ways his statements were factually incorrect. That was in April? What's happened since then? They've worked together to optimize Flash on Macs.

 

[ApplesAOranges]

90% of what?

Fixed that, I don´t know the correct percentage, but the majority of companies making phones and tablets that are not Apple.

There is no war. There was a single decision.

You are wrong. Read my previous post.

 

[BaldiMac]

You are wrong. Read my previous post.

I responded to that post.

 

[UTclassof89]

...he provided a list of reasons that they chose not to use Flash on iOS devices.
Adobe's CEO basically called him a liar, but neglected to point out any ways his statements were factually incorrect...

Here you go:

Adobe: The truth about Flash

Business Insider: Steve Jobs is lying about Flash

Smashing Magazine: HTML 5 and Flash: Why it's not a war, and Why Flash Won't Die

Gizmodo: Why HTML 5 isn't going to save the Internet


(not that I think for a second that you have an open mind about this)

 

[ApplesAOranges]

I responded to that post.

Well you like to sugar code it, that´s fine. You love Steve, I get it.

I see it as rude and childish behaviour from both parties, but Steve started it!

You know, I would like to live in this "Flashles HTML5 utopia" too, but I just don´t see it happening for a long time, if ever...

And in the meanwhile, is it wrong to want Apple to offer their customers a tablet device that has the full web like all the other tablets? I mean isn´t Apple a company that likes to listen to their customers and make them happy?

At least an option to turn Flash ON/OFF for Pete´s sake!

 

[Piggie]

Here you go:

Adobe: The truth about Flash

Business Insider: Steve Jobs is lying about Flash

Smashing Magazine: HTML 5 and Flash: Why it's not a war, and Why Flash Won't Die

Gizmodo: Why HTML 5 isn't going to save the Internet

Thanks for those links, very interesting, Even more than I already knew in there.

Unfortunately despite any facts that may be posted here, it's clear with a select number of people it's like banging your head against a wall. They have a fixed point of view and nothing will make them change their mind.

Well I say nothing as I'm sure you know one thing would make them change their mind. Steve Jobs and Apple deciding the time it right to work with as opposed to against Adobe and to embrace Flash. Then and only then will these people change their mind as they would not continue with their current viewpoint against the company they feel can do no wrong.

I have come to accept it's a pointless argument with them. They have their mind fixed for them, and that's that.

The rest of us, then have our choice to carry on putting up with things as they are, and just accept these people, or to move onto other platforms that are going to support things we feel should be supported.

Agree to disagree I guess you could say.