Steve Jobs Once Considered Killing Apple's Pro Products

[TennisandMusic]

hmm.

are you saying that a big box which can house hard drives will collect less dust than a small box that can house drives?

i haven't used the new computer yet but as far as i can gather, it will collect less dust than the old model.. probably a lot less- even if you have a separate hd enclosure as well

i think it's important to point out (well, it's something that should be completely obvious but i guess it needs highlighted) that internal expansion in no way means free expansion.. you're both paying for it as well as providing space and an enclosure etc.. on most levels, there's absolutely zero difference between putting a hard drive inside a box and putting a hard drive inside a box.

Dude, are you kidding? You think there is NO difference between plugging an internal hard drive directly to a mobo vs having to buy an external thunderbolt chassis and cable? Have you looked at prices? It costs about 25 cents to hook up an internal hard drive via a SATA cable and the included power supply hookup.

How much is JUST a thunderbolt cable?

 

[0x0x0x0]

You're funny, what do you think carry the IP packet that contain the Ethernetframes you intend on sending over IP?

You can carry ethernet in IP, you clearly didn't click the google link in the post, did you?

Yes there is, PCI-SIG made one in 2007.

Would that be the PCI Express External Cabling Specification that was updated in 2012?..

 

[flat five]

Dude, are you kidding?

no.. i'm talking about something completely different that that #

You think there is NO difference between plugging an internal hard drive directly to a mobo vs having to buy an external thunderbolt chassis and cable? Have you looked at prices? It costs about 25 cents to hook up an internal hard drive via a SATA cable and the included power supply hookup.

How much is JUST a thunderbolt cable?

the only word you said in there that i also said is 'hard drive'.. everything else is irrelevant (irrelevant to the words you're responding to at least-- therefore, it's an impossible scenario to have a meaningful conversation)

 

[subsonix]

You can carry ethernet in IP, you clearly didn't click the google link in the post, did you?

Yes I did. But you can not send an IP packet unless it's part of an ethernet frame (or equivalent) regardless of what the content is in your IP packet.

Would that be the PCI Express External Cabling Specification that was updated in 2012?..

All I found was a press release from 2007, and Wikipedia make notes of an up coming spec with PCIe v2 speeds, instead of v1.1.

 

[linuxcooldude]

In that market, you have to constantly throw out bleeding edge hard- AND software. And you have to build machines that can actually be customized and expanded. The new Mac Pro --looks-- like an interesting design study, but it's just not the kind of equipment that you can use as a workstation in most power user scenarios. Unless, of course, you don't mind having dozens of cables and external hard disks on your desk. Which is exactly the thing that Steve Jobs himself once made fun of in a keynote. "Who wants something like this?" he asked.

Yeah. Who?

I don't think we will always see bleeding edge hardware/software in the pro market for several reasons.

For one thing people won't change their work flow overnight. Its a slow & tedious process to move from one technology to a new one. Especially for larger companies.

Stability & reliability are the top priority over new technology. Something bleeding edge hardware/software does not always have. Thats why you often see businesses still use older technology, even though cost is a part of it.

 

[0x0x0x0]

Yes I did. But you can not send an IP packet unless it's part of an ethernet frame (or equivalent) regardless of what the content is in your IP packet.

Well, actually no, you can send IP over ATM, for example, and embed Ethernet inside IP, so you'll end up with Ethernet-over-IP-over-ATM; and you can even do other crazy stuff with IP without having ethernet underneath it...

All I found was a press release from 2007, and Wikipedia make notes of an up coming spec with PCIe v2 speeds, instead of v1.1.

I have no idea what you found...

 

[subsonix]

Well, actually no, you can send IP over ATM, for example, and embed Ethernet inside IP, so you'll end up with Ethernet-over-IP-over-ATM; and you can even do other crazy stuff with IP without having ethernet underneath it...

Of course! Which is why I added (or equivalent).. Bottom line, you need a link layer.

I have no idea what you found...

I just told you what I found (not much).

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/news/press_release/02_07_07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_External_Cabling

 

[linuxcooldude]

They only failed to mention that OS X adoption stopped at 28 million sold copies and that Windows 8 by now has reached 100 million sold copies. But since those numbers don't look that good for Apple, they have to make up some other statistics, of course.

Its a bit hard to believe. Microsoft claimed 40 million were sold in a short amount of time when it was initially released. But what I believe happened was it was distributed to all its OEM PC partners to be installed prior to sale to customers.

I think that also slowed PC sales even further than it had before because windows 8 is not being well received by the public.

 

[JarJarThomas]

Really? I'm not being sarcastic.
I'm firstly wondering which Mac Pro is 16 core.
Then I'm wonderign how they'd stack up if both are outfitted with the same SSD and amount of RAM.
If you are really up against it then surely a Mac Pro, even the old one is faster?

No my desktop is a windows based Xeon because we use mainly 3dsmax.
Fr developing flowline I use parallels to work with it on windows, macos and centos.

And yes the desktop has no ssd. But it has 32 gig ram.

My point was you don't need a MacPro (neither new or old) for developing even really hard stuff. A MacBook Pro retina is more than enough.
But I will buy a new Mac Pro because I need a machine with gpu and opencl for simulation and an easy way to swap disk arrays with simulation data (can be several 100 gb per frame)

 

[0x0x0x0]

Of course! Which is why I added (or equivalent).. Bottom line, you need a link layer.

Yes, and if you actually read what I said initially I said nothing about the link layer. What I said was if I were to embed ethernet inside IP, you wouldn't call IP "ethernet" with some insignificant implementation detail that is the IP...

I just told you what I found (not much).

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/news/press_release/02_07_07
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_External_Cabling

Outdated and it refers to "Cabling" not a separate ePCIe spec - it just provides the minimal technical characteristics of the cables necessary (in that case) to transmit PCIe GEN2 signals...

 

[Michael Scrip]

...

...

0x0x0x0 and subsonix

Maybe consider using PM for all this talk.

It's the weekend... so there won't be any new stories on Macrumors until Monday. Every time I check this thread I see new posts... but it's mostly you two arguing about intricate technical details.

Find another forum to discuss whether ethernet can carry IP...

Half of the 380 comment in this thread are you two... excessive much?

 

[subsonix]

Yes, and if you actually read what I said initially I said nothing about the link layer. What I said was if I were to embed ethernet inside IP, you wouldn't call IP "ethernet" with some insignificant implementation detail that is the IP...

No, but I would not hesitate to call IP IP or TCP TCP even though I know both are carried by ethernet.

Outdated and it refers to "Cabling" not a separate ePCIe spec - it just provides the minimal technical characteristics of the cables necessary (in that case) to transmit PCIe GEN2 signals...

It's a press release, it's not the actual spec!@ But it provides a brief of what it refers to, specifically cables, connectors and signaling rate over the cable and connectors specified.

It's what is available, that also mentions the PCIe spec it's based on. Now you link me to a more recent and correct spec.

0x0x0x0 and subsonix

Maybe consider using PM for all this talk.

It's the weekend... so there won't be any new stories on Macrumors until Monday. Every time I check this thread I see new posts... but it's mostly you two arguing about intricate technical details.

Find another forum to discuss whether ethernet can carry IP...

Half of the 380 comment in this thread are you two... excessive much?

I'm sorry, I'll stop here.

 

[0x0x0x0]

Half of the 380 comment in this thread are you two... excessive much?

Can't be half- I've only got 11 notifications of being quoted, and that's including your quote...

In any event, I wasn't going to post anymore because subsonix keeps moving the goalposts every time...

 

[Michael Scrip]

I'm sorry, I'll stop here.

No problem man... and I hated to be that guy.

Thanks

 

[gnasher729]

Its a bit hard to believe. Microsoft claimed 40 million were sold in a short amount of time when it was initially released. But what I believe happened was it was distributed to all its OEM PC partners to be installed prior to sale to customers.

It's the old "sold vs. shipped" thing, but actually in reverse. While some tablets failed in the market and had many more shipped than sold, Microsoft managed to do the opposite, and sell many more copies of Windows 8 to OEMs than were shipped to customers.

 

[0x0x0x0]

No, but I would not hesitate to call IP IP or TCP TCP even though I know both are carried by ethernet.

Being obtuse again- pigeons, ethernet, ATM, IP, and TCP are different things, just like PCIe, DisplayPort ,and Thunderbolt are.

It's the spec that is available, that also mentions the data rate and PCIe spec it's based on. Now you link me to a more recent and correct spec.

You'll need to pay for the spec, but here's an example of actual products.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Can't be half- I've only got 11 notifications of being quoted, and that's including your quote...

In any event, I wasn't going to post anymore because subsonix keeps moving the goalposts every time...

HYPERBOLE

All I know is... I've got my view set to 40 posts per page... and I kept seeing your names pop up over and over.

I love engagement... but arguing about IP packets and ethernet frames is a little much

 

[asiga]

I need computers for software development, computer graphics, and number crunching, with a powerful UNIX operating system. So, while the Mac has been my best computer for the last decade (prior to that I used SGIs), however, the day iOS was released was a bad day for all the Mac users with the same needs as I.

I think the days of OSX being superior to Linux are numbered. I hope Apple changes its strategy, because I don't want to go to Linux.

 

[prowlmedia]

Sacrifices yes. A laptop is not a desktop.

But Apple makes no pro laptop at all, full stop.

And their upcoming "pro" desktop is a farce.

Which is their prerogative, of course. Louis Vuitton doesn't make a pro laptop, and neither does OLPC.

I'm just saying that the fanboy community should stop worrying about whether Apple might be considering ditching the pro market. The truth is that they did it many, many years ago.

Absolute bull.

The MBPR is very powerful. There are PC that can beat it like the ASUS G75VW with a 670m instead of the 650m... but it weighs nearly 2.5x as much at 4.5kg, no where near as good screen and the battery is rubbish.

The MacPro is an unknown, but the demo of it by Pixar was unbelievable. I have never seen polys being shifted like that. The internal memory is nuts at 1250MB/s and all the storage you could ever need via TB2

The fact is 95% of the MacPros, and PCs that I have used while freelancing (and it's in the 100s) have 1 ( possibly 2 ) internal drives - and they are always 7200RPM drives and bar 1 or 2 not even raided. And memory is always at a bare minimum.

If the interconnects are fast and flexible enough there is no reason to have a giant mostly empty box.

The new MP is going to be incredible in a studio 1 main TB2 store that everyone can share at fantastic speeds. No more need to swap machines or copy files around. Especially as you can have 100m TB cables running to your server room.

On top of that you could buy say 1 Red rocket card or external audio cards and have them in an enclosure and shared by all instead of having them sitting unused.

If you can't see that then you are a dinosaur and need to get outta the way.

 

[0x0x0x0]

On top of that you could buy say 1 Red rocket card or external audio cards and have them in an enclosure and shared by all instead of having them sitting unused.

Doesn't Red Rocket require at least 8 PCIe GEN2 lanes and 16 for Rocket-x? With TBv2 you get 4 PCIe GEN2 lanes...

 

[Kwill]

Think outside the box

This one?

It's true that the new Pro Mac depends upon externals for expansion. Sadly, after creating this and seeing a decline in sales (as with the Cube), Apple will likely conclude that there is no more Pro market instead of understanding that people desire internal expansion.

 

[AidenShaw]

Only if they bring it to Arizona and test it under more extreme conditions. Somes I think having all the tech R&D in Califorina is bad thing.

Anyone remember the Cube? No?

When I worked for one of the top 3 workstation vendors (actually, #1 of the top 3) we had an "oven" for testing systems under high heat.

Actually, the oven had a sealed opening to run power and signal cables for the disk drives to the air-conditioned room outside. We'd test the system boards at temperatures that we knew would cause disk failures - since nothing would be learned by frying disks, we kept them in a normal operating environment.

"Going to Arizona" looks good in ad copy, but is totally unnecessary in real product testing.

The MacPro is an unknown, but the demo of it by Pixar was unbelievable.

"Unbelievable" is certainly the appropriate adjective.

I have never seen polys being shifted like that. The internal memory is nuts at 1250MB/s

...the same memory speed that every other vendor using that Intel CPU will have - except that the vendors using dual-socket systems will have twice that bandwidth.

and all the storage you could ever need via TB2

Or, "all the storage that you can afford" - T-Bolt storage is a bit pricey....

The new MP is going to be incredible in a studio 1 main TB2 store that everyone can share at fantastic speeds. No more need to swap machines or copy files around. Especially as you can have 100m TB cables running to your server room.

You can't share over T-Bolt - you can only share over Ethernet (or via XSAN with a $$$ T-Bolt -> Fibre Channel adaptor).

On top of that you could buy say 1 Red rocket card or external audio cards and have them in an enclosure and shared by all instead of having them sitting unused.

You can't share T-Bolt devices or enclosures.

If you can't see that then you are a dinosaur and need to get outta the way.

Perhaps you should check on the capabilities of the hardware before making such a judgment - T-Bolt won't do what you seem to think that it does.

 

[flat five]

You can't share T-Bolt devices or enclosures.

why? i plan on doing just that.

(though i can also see your idea of share and my idea of share are two different things.. i guess you're saying i can't plug two laptops into one thunderbolt device and use it equally between the two at the same time?)

 

[subsonix]

You can't share over T-Bolt - you can only share over Ethernet (or via XSAN with a $$$ T-Bolt -> Fibre Channel adaptor).

It's not really more expensive than other fibre channel adaptors, and you will need one, regardless of if you own the new Mac Pro or not.

 

[0x0x0x0]

Especially as you can have 100m TB cables running to your server room.

According to Intel, maximum (copper) cable length for TB v1 is 3m (50m for fibre), I doubt they would've increased it that much, if at all, with TB v2...