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Steve Jobs Posts 'Thoughts on Flash' Open Letter
- Thread starter Lordillingworth
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1. Being right for a little over a decade now.
2. His wild success due to above.
Apple does what they want because they're in a leadership position. That's how it works. And you'll see the rest of the industry fall in line.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Steve put it all on the table in a detailed, thorough way. I'm sure someone will still state that Apple secludes itself and that owners of their products are just people with elitist attitudes when they should actually now be able to clearly see that, Steve does things for reasons other than control of the masses. Please . .
If you want to control the masses, you frame your communications such that you come up with any reasoning that supports your view. If the reasoning sounds good enough, chunks of the masses will blindly accept it, even argue it as evidence that it is not about control, but good for end users.
Name one that's finished, live, and not beta testing HTML 5 !!!
Yeah, I figured so.
Even YOUTUBE is still BETA TESTING HTML 5! LOL
Like I've said repeatedly and you just proved, the fanboys do not live in the real world.
Okay, so to play a Flash game on your computer, usually, what do you use: a mouse, and very often a keyboard. On the iPhone and iPad, what can you use in various applications: a finger, two fingers, an accelerometer, a compass and a camera. That is totally not compatible with anything on the iPhone.
Flash games today are NOT built in a way that would make them good to use on an iPhone: the size of buttons, the controls, the way you navigate inside a Flash application is completely different from what you do within an iPhone App. The reason for that is that the iPhone is way too different from a proper computer.
So no, if Apple would allow Flash on the iPhone, the App Store would not suffer, since the Apps in the App Store are built with both the iPhone's special capabilities and it's limited size, power and controls in mind.
Next time you play a Flash game, ask yourself how this would work on the iPhone, and you will realise that if Apple implemented Flash on their mobile devices, they would just waste time and money, and no one would really use Flash. There would be a few instances in which Flash would work on the iPhone, but that's a minority, and it isn't worth investing so much effort into that. Instead, Apple expects developers to invest a little bit of effort into changing what they have to change to make their websites truly cross-platform.
Go on http://www.newgrounds.com/ and play any game and see what I mean. They're great on your big screen, mouse and keyboard, but how would most of them work on the iPhone?
LTD
Cry moar man.Ubuntu is ok if you have SOME brain in that useless head.Obviously i love mac os x more than every OS,but have respect of the ppl who codes for ubuntu just for free,trying to make a desktop,server,netbook and various versions, for example, without crying that netbooks are evil (i agree,they suck,but still,ppl must have a choice) don't u think ? they think more about ppl,not about money and world domination like apple do lol.
And yes,i still think that touch sucks.Soz for that,this is just IMHO.try to not cry about that anymore.
And btw,talking about OpenSource.Ubuntu can to talk about it,Steve can't.NO WAY
Cry moar man.Ubuntu is ok if you have SOME brain in that useless head.Obviously i love mac os x more than every OS,but have respect of the ppl who codes for ubuntu just for free,trying to make a desktop,server,netbook and various versions, for example, without crying that netbooks are evil (i agree,they suck,but still,ppl must have a choice) don't u think ? they think more about ppl,not about money and world domination like apple do lol.
And yes,i still think that touch sucks.Soz for that,this is just IMHO.try to not cry about that anymore.
And btw,talking about OpenSource.Ubuntu can to talk about it,Steve can't.NO WAY
Yeah, I picked up on that too
. Honestly, I disagree with Jobs there, touch screen is great for small portable devices for when you are on the go. But when I'm at home (or somewhere my laptop can come with me), I'd rather have the full power of my computer with keyboard and mouse. Keyboard and mouse is still faster and less frustrating to use (more accurate) than touch screen.Content is content - as a consumer, I want to be able to decide what content I access. Blocking access to content just because the technology does not meet their standards of excellence infringes on my right of choice, which is why I still say Apple is totally wrong here.
Let people choose what they want. Apple does not have to support Flash, but they shouldn't block Flash from being installed by those that want to use it. If I kill the battery life, that's MY choice, not Apple's to make.
Then don't buy an iphone/ipad. No one is forcing you to buy those. You have several different things you can buy other than those. Or you can accept that you won't have flash with those and decide the benefits are worth the cons (I mean you're lucky if you can find the perfect device for you).
I understand the frustration of loving a product but wishing it could do something but the company refuses to do it. I love OSX, but that means I'm stuck with whatever hardware apple chooses to give me. Which frustrates me right now cause Sony makes a laptop that I'd love... except it doesn't run OSX. It's frustrating to me that Apple thinks that people who want smaller laptops don't want a powerful machine.
So, I'll just wait and see if Apple comes out with something better eventually (they will eventually have to upgrade the chip sometime and really I just don't want to buy a laptop with the same gen chip that's not even that much increased in speed. For the money I'll wait until the technology changes).
But, in the end, that is Apple's choice and who they choose to market to. They're not forcing me to use their products or give up a better chip (I can find it elsewhere). They're just not offering me the choice I want.
Yep, exactly.
Still BASS ACKWARDS lol
Everyone has to bend to somebody's will. That's a fact of capitalism, especially when you are a consumer. I'd much rather submit to the will of the company that offers a better product. At the end of the day, you can't refute the crash log stats. When a pc/mac crashes, it submits crash logs. Apple and Microsoft compiles this data so they can review it. When Apple reviews their data, they find that flash causes the most crashes. So it's common since even by an idiots standards that flash is an major stability issue.
Re adapting vs blocking perspective: Lets say for instance, HIV is an issue. So now the gov't recommends using condoms to prevent transmission of STDs in order to promote stable health and minimize health risks. But no, you'd look at this and say "the gov't is blocking how good sex feels!" ha ha ha!
Dude it's clear bro, Flash causes problems. It's so damn popular because it enables rich media experiences and no one else has done that- which is why Flash usage is so widespread. I get that. But the fact remains, Flash was developed poorly and causes a # of major issues.
And your last point offers a half ass solution. Once again, why turn on or turn off a flash feature when you can just using a more stable option all together? I don't want to go back and forth switching flash on and off when ADOBE FLASH can just fix the problem. that's like telling a TOYOTA owner "hey don't drive past 40mph and you won't have to worry about your gas pedal sticking." No man, fix the problem Toyota!
Everyone has to bend to somebody's will. That's a fact of capitalism, especially when you are a consumer. I'd much rather submit to the will of the company that offers a better product. At the end of the day, you can't refute the crash log stats. When a pc/mac crashes, it submits crash logs. Apple and Microsoft compiles this data so they can review it. When Apple reviews their data, they find that flash causes the most crashes. So it's common since even by an idiots standards that flash is an major stability issue.
Re adapting vs blocking perspective: Lets say for instance, HIV is an issue. So now the gov't recommends using condoms to prevent transmission of STDs in order to promote stable health and minimize health risks. But no, you'd look at this and say "the gov't is blocking how good sex feels!" ha ha ha!
Dude it's clear bro, Flash causes problems. It's so damn popular because it enables rich media experiences and no one else has done that- which is why Flash usage is so widespread. I get that. But the fact remains, Flash was developed poorly and causes a # of major issues.
And your last point offers a half ass solution. Once again, why turn on or turn off a flash feature when you can just using a more stable option all together? I don't want to go back and forth switching flash on and off when ADOBE FLASH can just fix the problem. that's like telling a TOYOTA owner "hey don't drive past 40mph and you won't have to worry about your gas pedal sticking." No man, fix the problem Toyota!
Run Steve Run
A message from a winner! Hard to argue with todays uptick in AAPL shares.
The market is usually right, until its wrong.
A message from a winner! Hard to argue with todays uptick in AAPL shares.
The market is usually right, until its wrong.
The only solution you can come up with is to drag around a mouse, with my iPhone?
And I don't think it is a matter of Apple not being able to figure out the issue, it simply doesn't work. Take these examples:
Finger down:
You put your finger down on the device directly on top of the object you want to hover on.
Problem: This directly conflicts with tapping.
Solution: Utilize the length of a tap as an indication of the desired behavior. For example, a tap and release would have the object behave normally, a one second tap and hold indicates hover.
Problem: This is not intuitive and it is slow. Combining multiple outcomes to a single action leads to problems. And it may not be consistent across apps/web. Further, there is no current way of knowing an object has a hover state at all.
Finder down move across surface:
You put your finder down anywhere on the device and move your finger to the object you want to hover.
Problem: This directly conflicts with scrolling
Solution: Utilize and finger down and hold as in indication of wanting hover states.
Problem: This again is not intuitive. If you have used an iPhone you know that uses will often just put there fingers on the device as they get ready for a future action.
Solution 2: Change scrolling or hover to two finger actions.
Problem: Confusion. Users are used to scrolling with one finger. Obstructed view. On an iPhone two fingers blocks much of the device.
These are just possible options and is not meant to be an exhaustive list. However, this is what one goes through when determining user interface design. You may be able to come up with solutions to the problems I have given, yet those solutions must still pass the user interface test.
Adding a mouse to a device with an existing interface adds unnecessary weight and mobile complications. If I want to hover on something while I am walking, how exactly do I use my mouse?
I will agree that Adobe is lazy, but this statement by Steve Jobs sounds more of a desperation thing to me with ANDROID gaining ground on the iPhone now.
If Adobe does ever get its act together with Flash, it could be a serious marketing advantage for Android and cost savings for websites already designed for Flash that don't have to start from the ground up in HTML 5.
Steve Jobs is clearly attempting to thwart the Android/Flash scenario before it gets off the ground. But, the horse is already out of the gate. Android sales are already outpacing iPhone sales.
The fact that Steve Jobs even made this statement (since he makes so few) shows a little sweat on his brow to me.
If Adobe does ever get its act together with Flash, it could be a serious marketing advantage for Android and cost savings for websites already designed for Flash that don't have to start from the ground up in HTML 5.
Steve Jobs is clearly attempting to thwart the Android/Flash scenario before it gets off the ground. But, the horse is already out of the gate. Android sales are already outpacing iPhone sales.
The fact that Steve Jobs even made this statement (since he makes so few) shows a little sweat on his brow to me.
Could this be done in non-flash site?
Load time is pretty good
http://labs.dragoninteractive.com/di09/
Hint: it is not a flash site
Load time is pretty good
http://labs.dragoninteractive.com/di09/
Hint: it is not a flash site
Amen to that!
Steve Jobs did a good job of summing up these arguments. Personally, being a developer, I must agree that cross-development platforms do seriously hinder taking advantage of new native features.
The only answer Adobe can really give here is to make Flash (and Flex) an open standard, otherwise it will be gone in a few years.
Steve Jobs did a good job of summing up these arguments. Personally, being a developer, I must agree that cross-development platforms do seriously hinder taking advantage of new native features.
The only answer Adobe can really give here is to make Flash (and Flex) an open standard, otherwise it will be gone in a few years.
Your statement is not correct. All you have to do is check cpu stats while running flash then run same setup using supported standards and you will see a difference in performance. Now what happens when you have thousands of website that crash iphones and ipads because of poorly written flash or apps. Who takes the blame from a consumers prospective. Apple or Adobe? most users don't know what caused the crash and will blame Apple
Even the YOUTUBE HTML 5 beta is missing simple features like full screen last I checked!
These crazy "DIE FLASH DIE" fanboys are living in their own little world called a fools' paradise.
You are living in opposite world, troll.
Hope your harddrive crashes and you lose everything.
Touch doesn't support rollover or right-mouse clicks
My prior posts state that I think the #5 issue from Jobs is the most valid, and actually exposes the biggest reason Apple doesn't support Flash. Flash exposes the limitations of Touch.
No mouse rollover capability
No right-mouse clicking is another one, however, Flash doesn't typically expose this.
My opinion is that Web apps have been trending towards being as rich in mouse features as regular native apps. So basically Touch is forcing major web apps to not support rollover and ultimately the hallowed right-mouse-click.
Hidden in Jobs rant about the supremacy of Touch is the fact that you are losing rich mouse features and with the history of Apple and rich-mouse features, that direction is a perfectly wonderful direction for Apple to take computing.
My prior posts state that I think the #5 issue from Jobs is the most valid, and actually exposes the biggest reason Apple doesn't support Flash. Flash exposes the limitations of Touch.
No mouse rollover capability
No right-mouse clicking is another one, however, Flash doesn't typically expose this.
My opinion is that Web apps have been trending towards being as rich in mouse features as regular native apps. So basically Touch is forcing major web apps to not support rollover and ultimately the hallowed right-mouse-click.
Hidden in Jobs rant about the supremacy of Touch is the fact that you are losing rich mouse features and with the history of Apple and rich-mouse features, that direction is a perfectly wonderful direction for Apple to take computing.