The way Apple handles iOS upgrades is almost criminal.

[BrettApple]

A new day on MacRumors forum, but same old s*** - "Apple not allowing downgrade..."

I wonder if this argument has been ongoing since the birth of MR....

Well, it's been going on since the iPhone 3Gs with the new bootrom. Before that, you could easily downgrade in iTunes using a downloaded IPSW file. No biggie. Then they changed how iBoot works after about November 2009.

For example, my iPod touch 2G (2008 MB model) can easily be downgraded from iOS 4.2.1 to 3.1.2 or 2.2.1 or whatever else I have downloaded without needing to check for a signature. Even offline.

After the new bootrom 3Gs devices checked for a signature. BUT there were SHSH blobs that you could use when you jailbroke your device and it saved them to Cydia, or you saved them yourself with a utility like tinyumbrella. Example 2, my iPod touch 4th gen with the A4 chip had iOS 6.1.2 on it for a while and I got tired of how laggy it was, so I used my SHSH blobs from iOS 4.2.1 and restored it. It was soo much faster and I was much happier with it. The apps I used still worked on it and there weren't that many to begin with. I used it mostly for music, and the battery lasted longer on 4.2.1 too. Video example: iPod touch 4G speed test

Then the A5 devices came out and SHSH blobs really didn't do much for them. The rest is history.

So, yeah. Since late 2009, it's been much of the same.

 

[Italianblend]

When it comes to corporations, I don't know if there is any sense of good or right. These companies provide a service and it's up to you to decide if you like the service being given at the price point it's given at, with the provisions that come along with the service

That certainly is true.

Just seems like apple gets away with it.

If a company sold you a car and a year later you brought it into the dealership for service, and they replaced your engine with a brand new one, free of charge, and the new engine decreased your gas mileage, you'd be furious. And make no mistake, there would be a lawsuit. A big one.

This is the same thing, granted on a smaller scale.

 

[Vortex87]

they really should allow it to downgrade at the least

 

[newellj]

That certainly is true.

Just seems like apple gets away with it.

If a company sold you a car and a year later you brought it into the dealership for service, and they replaced your engine with a brand new one, free of charge, and the new engine decreased your gas mileage, you'd be furious. And make no mistake, there would be a lawsuit. A big one.

This is the same thing, granted on a smaller scale.

Wrong analogy. Installation was voluntary, and you have the option to see other people's experinces before upgrading.

 

[I7guy]

That certainly is true.

Just seems like apple gets away with it.

If a company sold you a car and a year later you brought it into the dealership for service, and they replaced your engine with a brand new one, free of charge, and the new engine decreased your gas mileage, you'd be furious. And make no mistake, there would be a lawsuit. A big one.

This is the same thing, granted on a smaller scale.

There could be a considerable variation in engine output and mileage for the same make and model. It's just the way it is. Something difficult or impossible to prove in court the result of the engine as much as driving style.

 

[C DM]

Wrong analogy. Installation was voluntary, and you have the option to see other people's experinces before upgrading.

Seeing other people's experiences tells you less than half of what you need to know given that your own experiences can and in various ways usually does differ from many others.

That said, none of that still somehow provides good reasons for not being able to downgrade.

 

[newellj]

Seeing other people's experiences tells you less than half of what you need to know given that your own experiences can and in various ways usually does differ from many others.

That said, none of that still somehow provides good reasons for not being able to downgrade.

It's still voluntary. If you don't like what you see, or if you aren't sure, wait (or never upgrade). I kept an iPhone 4S on 5.1.whateveritwas until I sold it last November. it can be done. And it seems to be the universal knee jerk response around here.

 

[C DM]

It's still voluntary. If you don't like what you see, or if you aren't sure, wait (or never upgrade). I kept an iPhone 4S on 5.1.whateveritwas until I sold it last November. it can be done. And it seems to be the universal knee jerk response around here.

How would you know how it performs on your device and for your use without installing it and using it for at least a bit?

And it's also not so voluntary if you might need to restore your device for some reason. Sure, not siemthing that's all that common for many, but still happens enough, and not much of a choice there.

And once again, none of that provides any argument against being able to downgrade.

 

[Rodster]

How would you know how it performs on your device and for your use without installing it and using it for at least a bit?

And it's also not so voluntary if you might need to restore your device for some reason. Sure, not siemthing that's all that common for many, but still happens enough, and not much of a choice there.

And once again, none of that provides any argument against being able to downgrade.

I hear ya but the previous poster makes a good point. You don't have to upgrade, ever. I still have my launch day iPad 3 happily running on iOS 5.1.1 and that's where it will stay unless if by magic iOS 9 supports it and fixes all the performance issues.

You can upgrade and test drive it and downgrade within the downgrade window from Apple. An individual can also read professional reviews regarding the new iOS version as well as view Youtube videos.

So there is information out there including impressions available where the only thing standing in the way of an upgrade is giving in to one's OCD and the update indicator on the settings icon.

The restore issue can be a problem but that's usually a JB issue. For most users they will rarely require to do a restore from iTunes unless something massively went wrong.

 

[C DM]

I hear ya but the previous poster makes a good point. You don't have to upgrade, ever. I still have my launch day iPad 3 happily running on iOS 5.1.1 and that's where it will stay unless if by magic iOS 9 supports it and fixes all the performance issues.

You can upgrade and test drive it and downgrade within the downgrade window from Apple. An individual can also read professional reviews regarding the new iOS version as well as view Youtube videos.

So there is information out there including impressions available where the only thing standing in the way of an upgrade is giving in to one's OCD and the update indicator on the settings icon.

The restore issue can be a problem but that's usually a JB issue. For most users they will rarely require to do a restore from iTunes unless something massively went wrong.

There's certainly all that. But still none of that goes against having an ability to downgrade (basically for Apple to keep that signing window open instead of randomly closing whenever they decide to).

 

[MarcusCarpenter]

I know downgrading will disrupt apples way of software distribution, how do you think they have such a high install base on iOS 8? it's because people can't downgrade and i think in a way this is a good thing to keep everyone up to date

Maybe apple shouldn't include new features for older devices, make it run exactly the same as it did on the previous firmware or they could support older iOS versions like they do OX S and provide just security updates for those who don't wanna upgrade

IMO Apple should allow you to install the last (latest) version of whatever iOS version is supported on that device so for a 4s it would be the latest version of 7, 6 or 5 so they could still patch jailbreaking if needed

 

[Black Magic]

I'm not sure Apple is intentionally slowing devices down with each release and feel like a lot of people are conspiracy theorists/paranoid. I think it's a really good business practice to encourage users to upgrade to the latest when possible. This makes it easier to maintain one OS versus 20 when it comes to security updates and fixes. It reduces fragmentation and developers don't have to worry about testing their app out on 20 different OSes.

If folks don't like Apple's OS practices, feel free to switch over to Android. I'm willing to bet that the bitching and whining will start all over again on that side of the house too.

Apple can't win regardless of what they do and they can't please everyone.

 

[C DM]

I'm not sure Apple is intentionally slowing devices down with each release and feel like a lot of people are conspiracy theorists/paranoid. I think it's a really good business practice to encourage users to upgrade to the latest when possible. This makes it easier to maintain one OS versus 20 when it comes to security updates and fixes. It reduces fragmentation and developers don't have to worry about testing their app out on 20 different OSes.

If folks don't like Apple's OS practices, feel free to switch over to Android. I'm willing to bet that the bitching and whining will start all over again on that side of the house too.

Apple can't win regardless of what they do and they can't please everyone.

Just because some might have complaints about something or think that something can or even should be better or different doesn't mean they just need to go elsewhere. Real life isn't split into "you are either with us or against us", there's much more complexity and nuance to pretty much everything out there.

 

[Max(IT)]

Just because some might have complaints about something or think that something can or even should be better or different doesn't mean they just need to go elsewhere. Real life isn't split into "you are either with us or against us", there's much more complexity and nuance to pretty much everything out there.

True but his concept is correct: Apple isn't going to changes policy just because they read about complainers on an unofficial forum like this. They barely listen to complains on their official forum (like any other big company).
So you have to vote with your wallet: don't like Apple, go elsewhere.
If you are part of a significant number, you'd bet Apple is going to listen.
Evidences are most Apple's customers are happy and still buying their products, so a vocal minority isn't a big deal.

 

[C DM]

True but his concept is correct: Apple isn't going to changes policy just because they read about complainers on an unofficial forum like this. They barely listen to complains on their official forum (like any other big company).
So you have to vote with your wallet: don't like Apple, go elsewhere.
If you are part of a significant number, you'd bet Apple is going to listen.
Evidences are most Apple's customers are happy and still buying their products, so a vocal minority isn't a big deal.

Just because Apple might not seemingly respond or do anything directly, doesn't mean that you just go away. If you like 90% of what Apple offers more than 99% of what's out there from competition, why should you leave because you have some concerns or dislikes about that remaining 10%? And why should you be quiet about those concerns in places that are especially set up for discussions for "common" people online about particular products that you might have concerns about? Why should it be down to just basically "use it and shut up, or just leave" just because the majority of typical users don't care or even realize things?

 

[Woochifer]

I'm not sure Apple is intentionally slowing devices down with each release and feel like a lot of people are conspiracy theorists/paranoid. I think it's a really good business practice to encourage users to upgrade to the latest when possible. This makes it easier to maintain one OS versus 20 when it comes to security updates and fixes. It reduces fragmentation and developers don't have to worry about testing their app out on 20 different OSes.

If folks don't like Apple's OS practices, feel free to switch over to Android. I'm willing to bet that the bitching and whining will start all over again on that side of the house too.

Apple can't win regardless of what they do and they can't please everyone.

With a lot of people on this forum, Apple won't win no matter what they do.

If Apple supports older devices, then you get the whining about iOS slowing things down and how it's planned obsolescence. But, if Apple cuts off support for older devices, then you'll get (probably) a lot of the same people whining again about planned obsolescence and Apple "forcing" people to buy new devices. It's a conspiracy if they do, it's a conspiracy if they don't.

By now, Apple's game plan is, or at least should be, clear. They will support older devices up to a point. If you go out beyond a certain number of upgrade iterations, the devices can and will slow down. Upgrading the OS will allow for longer app compatibility and better security. But, you take your chances with the performance tradeoffs.

If the performance and stability is the top priority, then either don't upgrade or wait until the final EOL version comes out before deciding whether or not to upgrade.

IMO, the platform security is an overriding consideration with Apple. They're playing the long game here, especially with mobile payments now coming into focus. Controlling the platform from end to end also controls the extent to which malware can take hold.

Yes, Apple could continue to issue security updates for older iOS versions. But, as we've seen with Win XP, piecemeal security patches introduce their own incompatibilities and bugs. And indefinitely supporting older iOS versions would also fragment the platform and lead to developers targeting older iOS versions as their lowest common denominator.

And encouraging/forcing developers to support the newer iOS versions is the other big part of Apple's platform strategy. With over 75% of iOS users now on iOS 8, developers have greater incentive to use the newer APIs. There's little reason for them to drag their heels if the majority of their target audience already uses the latest version.

 

[C DM]

With a lot of people on this forum, Apple won't win no matter what they do.

If Apple supports older devices, then you get the whining about iOS slowing things down and how it's planned obsolescence. But, if Apple cuts off support for older devices, then you'll get (probably) a lot of the same people whining again about planned obsolescence and Apple "forcing" people to buy new devices. It's a conspiracy if they do, it's a conspiracy if they don't.

By now, Apple's game plan is, or at least should be, clear. They will support older devices up to a point. If you go out beyond a certain number of upgrade iterations, the devices can and will slow down. Upgrading the OS will allow for longer app compatibility and better security. But, you take your chances with the performance tradeoffs.

If the performance and stability is the top priority, then either don't upgrade or wait until the final EOL version comes out before deciding whether or not to upgrade.

IMO, the platform security is an overriding consideration with Apple. They're playing the long game here, especially with mobile payments now coming into focus. Controlling the platform from end to end also controls the extent to which malware can take hold.

Yes, Apple could continue to issue security updates for older iOS versions. But, as we've seen with Win XP, piecemeal security patches introduce their own incompatibilities and bugs. And indefinitely supporting older iOS versions would also fragment the platform and lead to developers targeting older iOS versions as their lowest common denominator.

And encouraging/forcing developers to support the newer iOS versions is the other big part of Apple's platform strategy. With over 75% of iOS users now on iOS 8, developers have greater incentive to use the newer APIs. There's little reason for them to drag their heels if the majority of their target audience already uses the latest version.

They can still keep it simple and just keep on signing the last version of the previous version and those who might truly care and need it could then make use of it. The numbers would be low and not likely impact anything one way or another, except that for those who might need it who would get back to the experience they found to be better for them.

 

[Black Magic]

They can still keep it simple and just keep on signing the last version of the previous version and those who might truly care and need it could then make use of it. The numbers would be low and not likely impact anything one way or another, except that for those who might need it who would get back to the experience they found to be better for them.

Why not just be accountable for your actions instead of blaming Apple? That's the problem with society these days. It's always someone else's fault. Apple provides free OS updates with new features and security enhancements routinely, yet folks here still bitch. Free! If it is such a big deal, do not upgrade until you have done all your due diligence and have deemed it worth your while. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to upgrade. If you do and don't like it, it's your own fault as you had a week to roll back before Apple stopped signing.

P.S. This is not a personal attack directed at you. Just a general statement overall.

 

[C DM]

Why not just be accountable for your actions instead of blaming Apple? That's the problem with society these days. It's always someone else's fault. Apple provides free OS updates with new features and security enhancements routinely, yet folks here still bitch. Free! If it is such a big deal, do not upgrade until you have done all your due diligence and have deemed it worth your while. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to upgrade. If you do and don't like it, it's your own fault as you had a week to roll back before Apple stopped signing.

P.S. This is not a personal attack directed at you. Just a general statement overall.

Why not keep signing an older version? Seems rather simple.

We might as well not have backspace on keyboards or undo actions in applications with that "take responsibility" approach.

 

[newellj]

Just because some might have complaints about something or think that something can or even should be better or different doesn't mean they just need to go elsewhere. Real life isn't split into "you are either with us or against us", there's much more complexity and nuance to pretty much everything out there.

I disagree with a lot of what's in this thread (courteously, like the guy in the movie 1776) but that post ought to be put across the top of every forum here. It's an incredibly good point.

I will also say (back to the thread) that whatever you think about whether or not voluntary retrogrades would be a good idea (I understand the rationale), what do you do about security issues? Honestly, are we back to a WinXP situation, where Apple is trying to stick fingers in all the holes in the dike for an OS that's several generations old? Should Apple let people retrograde to a leaky, insecure OS, or do they have to keep it patched? I think that's potentially a tough question.

----------

Why not keep signing an older version? Seems rather simple.

Security might be a good reason not to keep signing old versions.

 

[Rodster]

Security might be a good reason not to keep signing old versions.

I run iOS 5 on my iPad 3 and have never run into ANY security issues but I don't subscribe to FUD anyways. It should be up to the user whether they feel comfortable running an outdated OS.

 

[C DM]

I disagree with a lot of what's in this thread (courteously, like the guy in the movie 1776) but that post ought to be put across the top of every forum here. It's an incredibly good point.

I will also say (back to the thread) that whatever you think about whether or not voluntary retrogrades would be a good idea (I understand the rationale), what do you do about security issues? Honestly, are we back to a WinXP situation, where Apple is trying to stick fingers in all the holes in the dike for an OS that's several generations old? Should Apple let people retrograde to a leaky, insecure OS, or do they have to keep it patched? I think that's potentially a tough question.

----------



Security might be a good reason not to keep signing old versions.

In theory, it might be, but in practice it's very unlikely to play much of a role. Apple doesn't worry too much about those who are already on older versions by choice or because their device can't update beyond a particular version. They also don't worry about too many of those on Mac OS who are on some older versions that aren't being supported. The numbers are and would still be low enough that it shouldn't be much of a worry really.

 

[newellj]

In theory, it might be, but in practice it's very unlikely to play much of a role. Apple doesn't worry too much about those who are already on older versions by choice or because their device can't update beyond a particular version. They also don't worry about too many of those on Mac OS who are on some older versions that aren't being supported. The numbers are and would still be low enough that it shouldn't be much of a worry really.

It may well be that the reason Apple doesn't allow rollbacks is for the same reason - they don't feel they need to worry about people who'd like to go back to a prior version? I think forums like this often turn into echo chambers that aren't really aligned with how the manufacturer sees the world. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not.

 

[C DM]

It may well be that the reason Apple doesn't allow rollbacks is for the same reason - they don't feel they need to worry about people who'd like to go back to a prior version? I think forums like this often turn into echo chambers that aren't really aligned with how the manufacturer sees the world. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not.

Well, they likely have a reason, and it might simply be even simplicity since it's much easier to not do it rather than to do it. I guess the point is that while it might be better/simpler for them, it doesn't necessarily translate to that for the consumers, and since we are consumers here (for the most part) we generally would want to look out for our interests more than those of someone else or a corporation of some sort basically (since they do that fairly well on their own anyway).

 

[TheRainKing]

The whole "people should do some research before updating" argument is so messed up. For us tech people it is natural to watch and read reviews on performance, but for the average person they have no interest in that sort of thing so it doesn't even occur to them. All they see is 'update available' and they naturally assume it's a good thing so they agree to update. Then they find out the update has made their device worse and they can't undo it. You can keep saying it's their own fault, but really, they're just trusting Apple to do what's best for their device and getting stabbed in the back. To this date there is still no reason for them not to allow downgrades. Security? BS. The real reason they don't allow downgrades is to keep their latest iOS usage numbers as high as possible. The funny thing is, they wouldn't have to worry about people downgrading unless they released a truly awful iOS update.