Thinking of cancelling new M1 MacBook Pro order due to notch

[Ansath]

You mean, like the large silver Apple logo on the lids of the brand new MacBook Pros? ?

The horse is starting to be beaten to death here, so I won't take the time to address each of your points (I personally don't find them convincing) and just leave it at this. But I do want to agree that Apple is incredible at marketing. I simply disagree that the "notch" has anything to do with it.

Yea ,there’s so much reaching and desperation in the claims the notch is for ‘branding’.

Between that and people thinking that inside of a MacBook is a TARDIS, or that the bezel could house a 1080p camera, when the only evidence so far is a 20mp camera, this thread and the other one is just wasteland content.

 

[Ansath]

That’s fine but ask yourself this… why make the notch look exactly like the iPhones notch? does it really need to be that big and square? This is a different product after all, they could have just put something similar to this on it… it only houses a 1080p camera, a couple of sensors and an LED light after all…

That device in the image you’ve shared, is thicker than the MacBook a Pro lid, so it’s got more space to deal with & can be shaped differently.

You seem to be under the false impression that Apple have made the notch that size, with a random area of emptiness under it. Have you got evidence to support that claim?

 

[James Godfrey]

That device in the image you’ve shared, is thicker than the MacBook a Pro lid, so it’s got more space to deal with & can be shaped differently.

You seem to be under the false impression that Apple have made the notch that size, with a random area of emptiness under it. Have you got evidence to support that claim?

Ok so why not have a more curved notch one which looks nothing like the iPhones notch, whether or not the notch is required is irrelevant, I don’t know exactly what apple are technically capable of behind the scenes.

It’s just how the notch has been incorporated into the product the shape and size of it is directly related to the iPhone… and is an instantly recognisable aesthetic. That is my point, yes it may have a function as apple may not be able to technically put the webcam there any other way without having a thicker bezel at the top, but they chose that specific aesthetic of the notch because it’s instantly recognisable aesthetic of their iPhone line up, that’s the point that is being made here…

I just can’t fathom why so many people think Apples design choices are for the greater good, they make their decisions based on more factors than just that it needs to be that way, they are constantly thinking about branding with any product they launch.

As with the AirPods example it would make so much sense for them come in more colours than white, people have been hoping for black, red, pink AirPods since they came out, plus the white ones can get quite dirty being in your ears on a regular basis, it makes sense to have more colour options, but it just hasn’t happened and the only reason is because they’re instantly recognisable as AirPods, simple fact!

And as for the lid being to thin to have it like that, we’ll explain why the iPhone is still rocking a chunky ass notch to this day… that isn’t exactly a ‘thin’ device any more… yeah they made it 20% smaller but it’s still relatively chunky, considering many other companies have all that tech under the display or on a notch as pictured in my previous post.

The reason the iPhone still has a notch is because it’s instantly recognisable as an Apple product, yet again a simple fact!

 

[booksbooks]

Aye.


How do you know it has a good camera? It’s not a released device & there’s no specs out yet.

Chances are it’s going to have a <720p camera.

Nice straw man dude. Come back when you can prove that a 1080p camera, sensors, etc, can fit in the new thin bezel with the thin lid.

You’ll see when a tear down is done, there isn’t the space in the notch for the sensors required for TrueDepth & the other items, which is what’s needed for centre stage.

Also, they do have FaceTime ?

The pop up cameras and under screen cameras currently shipping are in devices thicker than the MacBook Pro lid, and also most are not that good quality.

You seem to rely on the 2D dimensions of the notch & leave out depth when you try and say ‘but the tablets/phones…..’ which is unclear as if that’s on purpose or not, but anyone can just see its flawed.

First, I meant FACE ID. No FACE ID on these new MacBook Pros.

Yours is a strawman because you make an assumption as some sort of fact that it is not possible to make a good camera without a notch, which is erroneous. If people at Apple or other product companies thought like you and engaged in erroneous reasoning, there would be effectively zero evolution of technology. Nobody would ever believe things could change and move forward. Apple, like other technology companies, are innovative companies who create, synthesize, and invent new technology which is their purpose. If Apple wanted to, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that they would be able to have an in screen camera that is able to do everything that the current notch camera does. Unlike you, I don't make excuses for Apple and hold them to a higher standard with the amount of money they have and the fact that they have demonstrated in the past their ability to solve very difficult problems and invent revolutionary things. In addition to third party supplier technology that is available/whom they can work with.

Big notch, no centre stage or FACE ID. Fail.

Quoting The Verge:

"But instead, the new MacBook Pros are stuck in a terrible no man’s land: all the size of a notch, without any of the utility."

And when the notch is gone, you'll be lining up to buy the next product without he notch and will never go back to the notch because it serves no purpose.

You need a Steve Jobs moment. On the owner of Gorilla Glass not believing they could create scratch resistant glass any time soon for the first iPhone...

Jobs [Me]: "I've been carrying this thing around and it's scratched in my pocket. ... We need [scratch-resistant] glass."

Williams [You]: "We've been looking at that. I think within three to four years, technology may evolve ..."

Jobs [Me]: "No, no, no. You don't understand. When this ships in June, it needs to be glass."

Williams [You]: "But we've tested all the current glass [options] and when you drop it, it breaks, 100 percent of the time."

Jobs [Me]: "I don't know how we're going to do it. But when it ships in June, it's going to be glass."

12 Years Ago, Steve Jobs Taught an Astonishingly Effective Leadership Lesson in 5 Short Parts

If you're reading this on an iPhone, you'll be especially interested.

www.inc.com

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

If they didn’t have that small bit underneath…it wouldn’t be a notch. The menu bar would simply be split into two separate pieces.

Yep, that sounds better to me. Still not better than no notch at all of course. Looks poorly designed as it is with the too-thick menu bar

 

[Ansath]

First, I meant FACE ID. No FACE ID on these new MacBook Pros.

Yours is a strawman because you make an assumption as some sort of fact that it is not possible to make a good camera without a notch, which is erroneous. If people at Apple or other product companies thought like you and engaged in erroneous reasoning, there would be effectively zero evolution of technology. Nobody would ever believe things could change and move forward. Apple, like other technology companies, are innovative companies who create, synthesize, and invent new technology which is their purpose. If Apple wanted to, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that they would be able to have an in screen camera that is able to do everything that the current notch camera does. Unlike you, I don't make excuses for Apple and hold them to a higher standard with the amount of money they have and the fact that they have demonstrated in the past their ability to solve very difficult problems and invent revolutionary things. In addition to third party supplier technology that is available/whom they can work with.

Big notch, no centre stage or FACE ID. Fail.

Quoting The Verge:

"But instead, the new MacBook Pros are stuck in a terrible no man’s land: all the size of a notch, without any of the utility."

And when the notch is gone, you'll be lining up to buy the next product without he notch and will never go back to the notch because it serves no purpose.

You need a Steve Jobs moment. On the owner of Gorilla Glass not believing they could create scratch resistant glass any time soon for the first iPhone...

Jobs [Me]: "I've been carrying this thing around and it's scratched in my pocket. ... We need [scratch-resistant] glass."

Williams [You]: "We've been looking at that. I think within three to four years, technology may evolve ..."

Jobs [Me]: "No, no, no. You don't understand. When this ships in June, it needs to be glass."

Williams [You]: "But we've tested all the current glass [options] and when you drop it, it breaks, 100 percent of the time."

Jobs [Me]: "I don't know how we're going to do it. But when it ships in June, it's going to be glass."

12 Years Ago, Steve Jobs Taught an Astonishingly Effective Leadership Lesson in 5 Short Parts

If you're reading this on an iPhone, you'll be especially interested.

www.inc.com

The technology isn’t there yet. It will get there, but it’s not there yet. You cannot magically make it happen. Yours is a straw man, as you have no factual evidence that it could be done the way you want (only what you think should exist or poor quality tech for the sake of it). The only way it could be done now, is by making the lid thicker, but people were already moaning about the body of the MacBook being a bit thicker already.

Again, we’re not saying we want the notch. We just understand it’s a compromise, until the tech is there.

I’m done wasting my time on replying to you, as I am living in there real world, not make believe land.

 

[Ansath]

Ok so why not have a more curved notch one which looks nothing like the iPhones notch, whether or not the notch is required is irrelevant, I don’t know exactly what apple are technically capable of behind the scenes.

It’s just how the notch has been incorporated into the product the shape and size of it is directly related to the iPhone… and is an instantly recognisable aesthetic. That is my point, yes it may have a function as apple may not be able to technically put the webcam there any other way without having a thicker bezel at the top, but they chose that specific aesthetic of the notch because it’s instantly recognisable aesthetic of their iPhone line up, that’s the point that is being made here…

I just can’t fathom why so many people think Apples design choices are for the greater good, they make their decisions based on more factors than just that it needs to be that way, they are constantly thinking about branding with any product they launch.

As with the AirPods example it would make so much sense for them come in more colours than white, people have been hoping for black, red, pink AirPods since they came out, plus the white ones can get quite dirty being in your ears on a regular basis, it makes sense to have more colour options, but it just hasn’t happened and the only reason is because they’re instantly recognisable as AirPods, simple fact!

And as for the lid being to thin to have it like that, we’ll explain why the iPhone is still rocking a chunky ass notch to this day… that isn’t exactly a ‘thin’ device any more… yeah they made it 20% smaller but it’s still relatively chunky, considering many other companies have all that tech under the display or on a notch as pictured in my previous post.

The reason the iPhone still has a notch is because it’s instantly recognisable as an Apple product, yet again a simple fact!

Most of your post is daft rambling & not worth wasting time on, as there’s failure of logic, compared to other things previously pointed out by others (also, AirPods comment you made, had me spit take! They would get the same amount of dirt, no matter what colour, then being black, red or blue doesn’t mean it won’t be as dirty! ?)

iPhone doesn’t have it under the display, as we have a decent sized battery, which gives cracking battery life compared to the ones that have it under the screen. So, you either have the phone as it is, or sacrifice battery life. Also, those devices don’t have FaceID, any face recognition they have would be a poor version.

Since you also make insane leaps in logic, I’m not wasting time with you either. ??

 

[James Godfrey]

Most of your post is daft rambling & not worth wasting time on, as there’s failure of logic, compared to other things previously pointed out by others (also, AirPods comment you made, had me spit take! They would get the same amount of dirt, no matter what colour, then being black, red or blue doesn’t mean it won’t be as dirty! ?)

iPhone doesn’t have it under the display, as we have a decent sized battery, which gives cracking battery life compared to the ones that have it under the screen. So, you either have the phone as it is, or sacrifice battery life. Also, those devices don’t have FaceID, any face recognition they have would be a poor version.

Since you also make insane leaps in logic, I’m not wasting time with you either. ??

No problem will see you back here when the larger sized iMac comes with black bezels and a notch, and you try to explain to me that the reason is because of the thin design of the iMac Pro required the notch ?

 

[James Godfrey]

Most of your post is daft rambling & not worth wasting time on, as there’s failure of logic, compared to other things previously pointed out by others (also, AirPods comment you made, had me spit take! They would get the same amount of dirt, no matter what colour, then being black, red or blue doesn’t mean it won’t be as dirty! ?)

iPhone doesn’t have it under the display, as we have a decent sized battery, which gives cracking battery life compared to the ones that have it under the screen. So, you either have the phone as it is, or sacrifice battery life. Also, those devices don’t have FaceID, any face recognition they have would be a poor version.

Since you also make insane leaps in logic, I’m not wasting time with you either. ??

Before you go, other than brand recognition why do AirPods only come in white??? Answer that question with another reasoning behind it and I’m happy ?

 

[contacos]

Literally forgot it is even there as soon as I started the set up process

 

[WaltCD]

I had the iPhone 6s Plus for four years before upgrading to an iPhone 11 Pro Max. I had heard about the notch. People who had an X whom I asked about it didn't ever notice it.

Now, I've had mine for two years, and I can't tell once I've ever noticed it or that it ever "got in the way".
Yup. I just looked again to be sure it was still there. They put the clock on one side and the cell signal/Wi-Fi/battery on the other. Never-ever noticed. It just seems natural. Like it was supposed to be there. ??‍♂️


I'm guessing similarly a notch on a MacBook Pro would be similar: Never noticed.

 

[Ansath]

There’s been tear downs done, and the notch houses more than just the webcam, but the sensors too (unsurprisingly to those of us with common sense). It houses the 1080p camera, TrueTone sensor, ambient light sensor, and a camera status LED.

So, those of you that are staying it was just the webcam & wasting space, you stand corrected.

it’s quite thick too.

 

[Scarpad]

after only a few hours I don't notice it its mostly hidden

 

[Kiwikat88]

after only a few hours I don't notice it its mostly hidden

Honestly with the 16" screen being so big I barely noticed it to begin with- eyes are focused elsewhere all the time. Was "hidden" to me within a few seconds or minutes let alone a few hours.

 

[booksbooks]

The technology isn’t there yet. It will get there, but it’s not there yet. You cannot magically make it happen. Yours is a straw man, as you have no factual evidence that it could be done the way you want (only what you think should exist or poor quality tech for the sake of it). The only way it could be done now, is by making the lid thicker, but people were already moaning about the body of the MacBook being a bit thicker already.

Again, we’re not saying we want the notch. We just understand it’s a compromise, until the tech is there.

I’m done wasting my time on replying to you, as I am living in there real world, not make believe land.

Yes you can "magically make it happen" just like Steve Jobs did in 6 months in relation to a glass company that was stating 3-4 years.

Second, there you go stating falsehoods again. The technology is here, and has been here for years shipping in actual products. Apple could take the existing technology and make it even better, something they've done for decades.

 

[booksbooks]

The technology isn’t there yet. It will get there, but it’s not there yet. You cannot magically make it happen. Yours is a straw man, as you have no factual evidence that it could be done the way you want (only what you think should exist or poor quality tech for the sake of it). The only way it could be done now, is by making the lid thicker, but people were already moaning about the body of the MacBook being a bit thicker already.

Again, we’re not saying we want the notch. We just understand it’s a compromise, until the tech is there.

I’m done wasting my time on replying to you, as I am living in there real world, not make believe land.

No, the only way it can be done is NOT by making the lid thicker. You have neither imagination nor creativity. Case in point: you actually think that a front-facing camera MUST be positioned effectively exactly where Apple has it right now, which is completely false.

 

[EnderTW]

I am using a screensaver with a darker top border, and... guess what, notch is gone. mini led is a godsend.

 

[Ansath]

Yes you can "magically make it happen" just like Steve Jobs did in 6 months in relation to a glass company that was stating 3-4 years.

Second, there you go stating falsehoods again. The technology is here, and has been here for years shipping in actual products. Apple could take the existing technology and make it even better, something they've done for decades.

On one hand, you say that we need Steve Jobs to push a tech company into getting the technology made, but then say it's available (it's not - as I cover below). You contradict yourself in your own post, making yourself look a bit of a joke.

No, the only way it can be done is NOT by making the lid thicker. You have neither imagination nor creativity. Case in point: you actually think that a front-facing camera MUST be positioned effectively exactly where Apple has it right now, which is completely false.

The tech isn't there, if it was, Apple would have used it. Anything you've stated as examples actually prove the technology isn't there yet......

No device has a camera in a small bezel that's 1080p. The closest is 720p in the Dell XPS 13 which came out in the last year, but people have complained that it's a fuzzy/noisy image compared to other devices. This will be due to the lack of decent sensors.

The devices that moved the camera down, all get slated, due to it being a nostril cam and any typing introduces giant fingers blocking a chunk of the image.

If the tech is there, then you should evidence a device that has bezels as thin as the MacBook Pro, with a lid that's no thicker than the MacBook Pro, that has a 1080p front facing camera that is a good quality picture. Otherwise you are the one making a straw man argument, as you don't have anything real to support your argument.

Would I like the MacBook Pro to not have a notch? As stated many times, along with everyone else that's posted in here, yea we would prefer no notch, but we're realistic about it. The technology will get there, and likely not too far away, we just have to wait. In the meantime, Apple made a compromise until it's there.

 

[booksbooks]

On one hand, you say that we need Steve Jobs to push a tech company into getting the technology made, but then say it's available (it's not - as I cover below). You contradict yourself in your own post, making yourself look a bit of a joke.



The tech isn't there, if it was, Apple would have used it. Anything you've stated as examples actually prove the technology isn't there yet......

No device has a camera in a small bezel that's 1080p. The closest is 720p in the Dell XPS 13 which came out in the last year, but people have complained that it's a fuzzy/noisy image compared to other devices. This will be due to the lack of decent sensors.

The devices that moved the camera down, all get slated, due to it being a nostril cam and any typing introduces giant fingers blocking a chunk of the image.

If the tech is there, then you should evidence a device that has bezels as thin as the MacBook Pro, with a lid that's no thicker than the MacBook Pro, that has a 1080p front facing camera that is a good quality picture. Otherwise you are the one making a straw man argument, as you don't have anything real to support your argument.

Would I like the MacBook Pro to not have a notch? As stated many times, along with everyone else that's posted in here, yea we would prefer no notch, but we're realistic about it. The technology will get there, and likely not too far away, we just have to wait. In the meantime, Apple made a compromise until it's there.

No I do not contradict myself. I posted about Steve Jobs because it’s analogous. The glass was there, it just wasn’t advanced enough for the first iPhone. The head of the glass company stated 3-4 years before it would advance to where Jobs needed it now. Jobs pushed and in 6 months the glass was where it needed to be.

Fact 1: under screen cameras both exist and have been shipping in products for at least 1-2 years.
Fact 2: these components are made and available by third party suppliers.
Fact 3: other camera placements exist and have shipped on laptops and smartphones for years.
Fact 4: Apple is still in business.

Apple could do what it has done many times and iterate on the technology so it meets its spec.

Unfortunately Apple is not the same company as it was now that Jobs is gone.

Fact 5: the notch on the MacBook Pro has neither centre stage or Face ID, a complete fail on a top end portable computer that is newly designed.

Fact 6, the nail in the coffin: the technology for under screen cameras at 1080p does exist and is already shipping in products. An example: https://ztedevices.com/en-us/axon-30/

 

[James Godfrey]

No I do not contradict myself. I posted about Steve Jobs because it’s analogous. The glass was there, it just wasn’t advanced enough for the first iPhone. The head of the glass company stated 3-4 years before it would advance to where Jobs needed it now. Jobs pushed and in 6 months the glass was where it needed to be.

Fact 1: under screen cameras both exist and have been shipping in products for at least 1-2 years.
Fact 2: these components are made and available by third party suppliers.
Fact 3: other camera placements exist and have shipped on laptops and smartphones for years.
Fact 4: Apple is still in business.

Apple could do what it has done many times and iterate on the technology so it meets its spec.

Unfortunately Apple is not the same company as it was now that Jobs is gone.

Fact 5: the notch on the MacBook Pro has neither centre stage or Face ID, a complete fail on a top end portable computer that is newly designed.

Fact 6, the nail in the coffin: the technology for under screen cameras at 1080p does exist and is already shipping in products. An example: https://ztedevices.com/en-us/axon-30/

These are the exact reason why I said in an earlier post that the decision to add the famous notch was brand recognition, it makes the MacBook instantly recognisable amongst competing products, but I was shot down, as apple apparently never make design choices based on brand recognition ?

 

[tomtad]

Had a play with one of these in the store today and it's not really changed my mind. Yes it can be disguised by dark wallpapers and full screen apps but it's still too big. On the 14" the menus are constantly running into it causing them to skip over to the other side which just looks weird. It's a compromise at best but could have been so much better had it got more attention during development to shrink it down a bit.

I must admit I feel there is more OS optimisation that could be done to help things. An apps menu's should live on the left side of the notch at all times for example, maybe if those menus that don't fit appeared below when you moused up to the menu bar. I would also have a default setting to show the clock and status icons when you're in full screen, just like an iPad, rather than having the whole area blacked out.

 

[Macalway]

Funny about the notch. It's a great idea actually. Completely transparent, and it's frees up notification areas.

So this thread is outdated.

 

[wilberforce]

Got my 14" MBP yesterday, and my wife has been using it for a day. I didn't tell her about the notch, and so far she hasn't said a thing about it. Which I think is interesting. Going to see how long it is before she mentions it.

btw, I think the notch is lot less noticeable in real life that in a photograph/video of the device. Our eyes do not work like a camera - we can only see a small area in detail, with the rest of the area in peripheral vision, and our eyes dart around the scene as we mentally build up a "picture" of what we are looking at. When I am looking at the screen content, I am not looking at the notch.

I am only saying this to suggest not judge the offensiveness of the notch by looking at photos/videos, but to judge it by actually using the device in real usage (nor just looking at it in a store).

btw, I really like the way the menu bar works for full screen content. Previously it had always annoyed me the way the menu bar slides up and down from the top edge when the cursor got near the top edge - now it simply appears and disappears each side of the notch. Much less annoying. Now it will be hard to go back to a notchless Mac.

 

[rukind2]

Actually, I know a few key editors and sound composers, where they really found the Touch Bar extremely useful for their work practices. However, for the majority, was the Touch Bar necessary? No. But I do think it was a piece of ingenuity those who actually understood how to utilize it.

Yes, it proved useful to some, but one can understand its utility and still conclude that as a design element it is off-putting.

 

[VSMacOne]

I can tell you after 24 hours with the 16" MBP, the notch is a non-issue. The screen is such high quality and so immersive, that I stopped paying attention tot he notch after the first hour or so. Definitely not nearly as big of an adjustment as it was with the iPhone notch.