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Aren't all Americans illegal immigrants in a way? Why was it okay hundreds of years ago? Hypocrites.
If you want to go back 20,000 to 40,000 years then yes. However, there were no nations and thus no laws so the illegal adjective does not apply. However, it is so much more complicated. Ignoring the fact that Europeans invaded America and only considering the current nation of the United States, the needs for and the ability to absorb immigration changes with time. There will come a time when climate change results in mass worldwide human starvation and the US will need to completely stop immigration. That time is not today.
 
Actually I do have a passport sir. Great assumption on your part but like your logic -- lacking.

The laws we are talking about are the laws made by the United States Congress and the Constitution. The only laws that matter.

The failure of the Indians to win a conflict does not delegitimize those laws. And might i add---- the illegal immigrants aren't native American -- they were already inside the country when it was formed.

Got to love the arrogance and ignorance here.

Also laws are made by rich people for rich people - we just have to live by them, they don't.
 
This is why we should never listen to Trumpers - they cause businesses to fail by hiring untalented people instead of talented people. That's why they are failures.

The US isn't based on "rule of law". We are based on "rule of people".

The people override the law. The law doesn't override the people.

If you don't like Democracy, you can go back to Russia.
Do you realize how inconsistent your post is? Democracies, which you apparently advocate, have systems of electing representatives to create laws. Yet, here you are also saying that laws have no value. What do really want? Anarchy? That's basically what you're saying. There isn't a single example of anarchy that ended well for the "people".
 
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False on all counts. Absolutely false.

True - you cannot stop all illegal immigration -- but we historically kept it to a trickle -- almost decimal dust.
But when political motives stopped existing law from being enforced - we have suffered under 30 years of historic illegal immigration.

The law is fine -we just need a government with the spine to enforce it. Once you start enforcing the law as written - it takes care of itself. Case in point - Now - with the Trump administration we have seen a 78% drop in attempted crossings. And a 45% increase in self deportations. That is even before building the wall. Hmmm - once you communicate willingness to defend your borders and crack down on illegals -- they stop coming.

I also challenge the moral reasoning for giving a pathway to citizenship. That rewards illegal behavior. I could see temproray legal status that has to be renewed every two years. But no citizenship. That should be reserved for people who follow our laws.

Sorry but illegal immigration has been in decline since 2000. You can see this through Southern border apprehensions.


SBP Apprehensions.png


The law is being enforced. Obama removed more illegals than any president before him (look under the removals column below in the ICE chart). Not only was immigration and apprehensions significantly down under Obama, mainly due to 2008 economic collapse, but despite that he forcibly removed more than prior two administrations.

PB-Jan2017-T1-large.png


The law has been and continues to be enforced. The problem is that you have fallen for the rhetoric. The immigration issue under Trump has fallen to point that it has become state sponsored xenophobia shrouded in a fudged economic argument. To return to rationality one needs to look at actual statistics and not listen to the talking heads on TV or the proliferation of populist rhetoric online.

However, I'm glad you understand that illegal immigration cannot be stopped. The rational way to address the issue is through congress and through comprehensive immigration reform.
 
Your country forced you to go back to another country you haven’t seen since you were a kid to find a new life in what may be far worse circumstances than those in the U.S., but…that’s life?

Not really "their" country though is it? - In my opinion to become an American there are two ways, either be born in America or gain citizenship the legal way. I think it's a great thing when immigrants from other countries come to mine, when they follow the proper procedures, it keeps us all safe, not just those of us already living here but the immigrants who choose to live here too by stopping the gangs that exploit undocumented workers.

You need to keep in mind that to allow these people to stay and legitimise them by allowing them to work and own property legally it sets a precedent to other potential immigrants who are spending a lot of their time and money to get in legally.

The message it sends to them is "Don't worry about it, just hop the border and if you stay long enough without being caught you can stay forever, legally!" That's a bad image to send out into the world.

So for me I do believe these people should be sent back to their countries of origin. There is 800,000 young people covered by DACA. That's an incredible amount of illegal children and young adults who were not born in America and are not legitimate immigrants. To allow them to work legitimately sends a really bad message to future immigrants, really bad.

But again I completely support legal immigration. Do it the right way or don't do it at all, that's my opinion, I would expect nothing less than if I sneaked into another country with my children, none of us are above the law.
 
Sorry but illegal immigration has been in decline since 2000. You can see this through Southern border apprehensions.


View attachment 715826

The law is being enforced. Obama removed more illegals than any president before him (look under the removals column below in the ICE chart). Not only was immigration and apprehensions significantly down under Obama, mainly due to 2008 economic collapse, but despite that he forcibly removed more than prior two administrations.

View attachment 715827

The law has been and continues to be enforced. The problem is that you have fallen for the rhetoric. The immigration issue under Trump has fallen to point that it has become state sponsored xenophobia shrouded in a fudged economic argument. To return to rationality one needs to look at actual statistics and not listen to the talking heads on TV or the proliferation of populist rhetoric online.

However, I'm glad you understand that illegal immigration cannot be stopped. The rational way to address the issue is through congress and through comprehensive immigration reform.

These numbers are likely exactly why Trump is focusing on immigration. They are on the decline and if he accomplishes at least one thing in regards to immigration (or heck even nothing at all given his supporters intelligence level), he can claim that he "solved" immigration.

Just like the stock market, he will ride these trends as a sign of his great leadership.
 
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Aren't all Americans illegal immigrants in a way? Why was it okay hundreds of years ago? Hypocrites.

Everything was different in every country hundreds of years ago. Back to 2017: Try illegal entrance into any of the countries from where "dreamers" originate. I'd bet you'd deal with far more trouble than ICE doles out.
 
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My own mother is an immigrant and had to go through a very lengthy, expensive, grueling process to prove her fitness to become a citizen of the U.S.A. She was never at any time here illegally. She married my American dad in her native country and came here with him.

Your mother got her permanent residency through marriage, she didn't earn it either. That's the easiest way to become a permanent resident and then citizen.

The only ways to immigrate legally to the US are:
  1. Through family - either you married a US citizen, or your parents are US citizens
  2. Through employment - despite all the hate H1B visas get, its extremely difficult and costly to get an H1B visa, after a certain period you can upgrade to permanent residency and finally citizenship
  3. Through the green card lottery - its random and benefits some countries more than others
  4. If you have an extraordinary skill - thought leader on your field, or famous celebrity/sports person
  5. Through investment - if you invest $1 million and create 10 jobs in the US you can qualify for citizenship
Out of all these options the easiest is by far marrying a USC.
 
Awesome. These angry isolationist protectionists don't understand false equivalency but nice reply.
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Nope. Your Supreme Court of Republicans decided corporations are people. Accept it.
I don't mind the free speech aspect at all, I mind the millions upon millions of dollars they're using to buy politicians. I guess my anger may be a bit misplaced though as those politicians are the ones allowing this type of behavior, so really I guess I'm mad at politicians... as per usual.
 
The real low point in labor participation at the far end of your chart is due to the second world war and the Korean war. Those drafted into the wars were not counted as participating in the labor force for this measure.
Okay, cool, but once again, labor participation does not matter in unemployment statistics and therefore has no bearing on what is counted as full employment.
 
Apple's products cannot be extracted from their brand. Their brand is full of liberal values that most of their users subscribe to. Maybe you should change your brand loyalty instead of asking Tim to change his company's actual brand?
The brand had nothing to do with politics until Tim took over, so I disagree with your assertion that the brand is "full of liberal values". Steve Jobs kept his focus on making great products, Tim Cooks focus is clearly split, as a fellow Apple fan, this should bother you as well.

Regardless, I don't want to pick a phone based on the CEO's political position and they shouldn't limit their brand to one side of the aisle either.
 
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Got to love the arrogance and ignorance here.

Also laws are made by rich people for rich people - we just have to live by them, they don't.

Umm if that is your argument I can tell you have just conceded you cannot make a valid argument

So in your mind we should just ignore laws? Or in reality -- this is something you tell yourself when you don't agree with a law. You have to find someway to delegitimize it.

Ok --- then I guess we can ignore paying taxes -- I mean that was passed by someone who was rich---- No?
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Okay, cool, but once again, labor participation does not matter in unemployment statistics and therefore has no bearing on what is counted as full employment.

Uhhh again you are wrong.

Labor participation rates do impact the unemployment rate. In fact we had an object lesson in this under 8 years of Obama. The unemployment rate went down under his administration despite a total lack of real job growth because people stop looking. The unemployment rate excludes them from the numerator in that calculation.

For example --- if you had 100,000 jobs and 20,000 people were looking for work then the unemployment rate is 20%. If 10,000 people stop looking (e..g, drop out of the labor participation pool) then your unemployment calculation looks like this: 10,000 people looking for work with 100,000 jobs.

The unemployment rate is magically cut in half without one single increase in jobs - but just by people giving up on looking. That was the story from 2009 through 2016.
 
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Aren't all Americans illegal immigrants in a way? Why was it okay hundreds of years ago? Hypocrites.
My parents immigrated to the US from Northern Ireland. They had visas and then 'green cards' (a legal document saying they could be here). Later, they became citizens or "Americans". You believe they aren't legal ?

Since the US gov't considered them legally here, when I was born - on US soil - I was automatically a US citizen.

I think what you may be attempting to claim is that hundreds of years ago, immigrants settled here illegally therefore all Americans or the American gov't are "bogus". Yes ?
 
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If you want to go back 20,000 to 40,000 years then yes. However, there were no nations and thus no laws so the illegal adjective does not apply. However, it is so much more complicated. Ignoring the fact that Europeans invaded America and only considering the current nation of the United States, the needs for and the ability to absorb immigration changes with time. There will come a time when climate change results in mass worldwide human starvation and the US will need to completely stop immigration. That time is not today.

You only need to go back to the earliest British Colonial landings, never mind Neolithic mankind.
 
if you want business to stay out of politics then why do you support Trump. A businessman who campaigned on the platform that he could run the country like a business, a man who has not yet proven he removed himself from his businesses and he's not making money off his trips to his resorts.
So you would agree with me that money should get out of politics. Nice to find some common ground. ;)
 
I so love this picture. I'm pretty sure I would have a similar expression if i had to sit near this bozo
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everyone here is an immigrant or descendant of an immigrant.

Being a descendant of an immigrant 200 years ago isn't the same as immigrating yourself. The wait times, the intrusive paperwork, and the time sink to move to another country gives you a better appreciation for the process.
 
Sorry but illegal immigration has been in decline since 2000. You can see this through Southern border apprehensions.


View attachment 715826

The law is being enforced. Obama removed more illegals than any president before him (look under the removals column below in the ICE chart). Not only was immigration and apprehensions significantly down under Obama, mainly due to 2008 economic collapse, but despite that he forcibly removed more than prior two administrations.

View attachment 715827

The law has been and continues to be enforced. The problem is that you have fallen for the rhetoric. The immigration issue under Trump has fallen to point that it has become state sponsored xenophobia shrouded in a fudged economic argument. To return to rationality one needs to look at actual statistics and not listen to the talking heads on TV or the proliferation of populist rhetoric online.

However, I'm glad you understand that illegal immigration cannot be stopped. The rational way to address the issue is through congress and through comprehensive immigration reform.



Sigh.... wrong again. The reason border apprehensions dropped is we stopped looking and stopping them. Obama instituted a frisk and release program in 2009. And interior enforcement was stopped altogether. Bush was also guilty of this as well.

And Obama was lying when he said he deported more illegals than anyone.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.

The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.

Expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen steadily since his first year in office, and are down more than 40% since 2009.

The shift in who gets tallied helped the administration look tough in its early years but now may be backfiring politically. Immigration advocates plan protests across the country this week around what they say will be the 2 millionth deportation under Obama — a mark expected to be hit in the next few days. And Democratic strategists fret about a decline in Latino voter turnout for this fall's election.

Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.

On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.
The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.

The shift in who gets tallied helped the administration look tough in its early years but now may be backfiring politically. Immigration advocates plan protests across the country this week around what they say will be the 2 millionth deportation under Obama — a mark expected to be hit in the next few days. And Democratic strategists fret about a decline in Latino voter turnout for this fall's election.

Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.
 
I'm amazed and disgusted by how many people here want to send dreamers back to the countries they came from.

Do you not realize that these people were brought here as children? That they do not know any life other than that which they've lived here? They have all their connections here and have absolutely nothing at home?

Just because you're in the United States doesn't make you an American, just like if an American moves to Japan, or have a child there, non of them will ever become Japanese. A child born in Japan to American parents will have no problems moving to the US at any point in his or her life. Race, culture and language are the main things that group people together. If a child was brought here by illegal immigrants from Mexico, you can be pretty sure that that child has been brought up here steeped in Mexican culture, with Mexican values, eating Mexican food and speaking Spanish. The parents probably don't speak any English or have any knowledge (or interest) of American history or culture. If a child of these people were to be sent back to Mexico, yes, he would lose friends that he has here. But this is not the end of the world or different from any of the hundreds of thousands of families in the US that move with their children to another city or to another country for temporary work. I moved 10 times when I was a child and always found new friends where I moved.

If a DACA child is sent back to Mexico, he will find himself in a familiar culture, with people who look like him and who speaks the same language. I'm also pretty certain that the child will have plenty of family in Mexico. So no big deal. To some, I may sound cold hearted, but we have laws about how you can immigrate to the US, and this has to be followed. Just like Mexico deports any illegal immigrants in their country (it's amazing that we rarely hear anyone talk about this incredible double standard).

If we didn't have a welfare system, I wouldn't be so concerned with sending illegals back. But since our national debt have doubled from $10T to $20T since 2008, we simply can not afford it.
 
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What a disgusting man. Maybe these dreamers (first I’ve heard of this term) should do what his wife did and just marry a rich native.
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And where are your roots from, hypocrite?
I share that users sentiment too that, unless they’re 100% Native American they too were immigrants. So it’s pretty funny to see (usually) bigots worried about immigration when go back a generation or 4 and there’s pappy from the homeland.
 
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