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First they came for the Dreamers. They were insignicant so no one complained
Then they came for .... ... no one complained
Then...
Then...
They they came for you. There was no one left to complain. They took you to the ....

{You fill in the gaps}
First they called them illegal aliens
Then they called them illegal immigrants
Then they called them undocumented immigrants
Then they called them dreamers
Then they came for you. There was no one left to complain.

...I filled the blanks in for you on mine.
 
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Sorry but illegal immigration has been in decline since 2000. You can see this through Southern border apprehensions.

However, I'm glad you understand that illegal immigration cannot be stopped. The rational way to address the issue is through congress and through comprehensive immigration reform.


I never agreed to that or conceded that point. That was a fabrication of your own mind. We don't need compressive immigration reform at all. Totally unncessary if it is just to legalize 30 million illegals. The cost is just too much.

Now - I like Trumps' proposed reforms with the RAISE act it borrows a lot from Australian immigration law and a lot of recommendations from the Barbara Jordan Commission from 1992-1994. Although many of the lefties here will say Barbara Jordan was a fascist of some sort.

quote-credibility-in-immigration-policy-can-be-summed-up-in-one-sentence-those-who-should-barbara-jordan-54-10-02.jpg


Barbara Jordan (1936-1996) was a Civil Rights leader and a pioneering public servant. She was the first African-American woman elected to the Texas Senate (1966), the first woman from Texas to be elected to the U.S Congress (1973-1979), and the first African-American to deliver the keynote address at a Democratic National Convention (1976).

Due to her stature and reputation for integrity, she was appointed chair of the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform in 1993 by President Bill Clinton, and served in that role until her death in January 1996. Jordan testified several times before Congress regarding the work and findings of the Commission. Below are quotes from Jordan’s testimony before Congress which outline her grasp of the issues surrounding immigration and highlight Congress’ continuing failure to act on the Commission’s recommendations.

The work of Barbara Jordan and the other Commission members was part of the inspiration for NumbersUSA’s founding. As you will see, Barbara Jordan’s words are still relevant today, and NumbersUSA still has sensible solutionsthat will bring about the Commission's recommendations to stop illegal immigration and bring legal immigration down to a moderate level.


“The Americanization Ideal”

On September 11, 1995, Barbara Jordan wrote an opinion column in The New York Times entitled “The Americanization Ideal.” In it, she clearly laid out what guided her work as the chair of the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform. Paying respect to the history of immigration to the United States, Jordan did not allow the concept that “America is a nation of immigrants” – a concept she embraced – to distract her from formulating a “well-regulated system of legal immigration [that] is in our national interest.”

Jordan promoted the process of Americanization for immigrants, in which the culture and heritage of other nations are accepted as part of the fabric of American society, and immigrants accept that immigration imposes a mutual obligation for them to follow the law, learn English, and educate themselves on American history.

the committee’s recommendations here.

Below, in her own words taken from Congressional testimony, Jordan expands on how we can reach the goal of an immigration system that works for America.



An Immigration Policy in the American Interest
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“Immigration is far too important to who we are as a nation to become a wedge issue in Presidential politics. We have seen that kind of thing happen before, and it is not productive. I, for one, wish that we would do away with all the hyphenation and just be Americans, together.”– February 24, 1995

– June 28, 1995



Limits on Immigration
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“As a nation of immigrants committed to the rule of law, this country must set limits on who can enter and back up these limits with effective enforcement of our immigration law.” – August 3, 1994

– June 28, 1995

Solution: End Chain Migration


Protect Vulnerable Americans
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“Immigrants with relatively low education and skills may compete for jobs and public services with the most vulnerable of Americans, particularly those who are unemployed or underemployed. Jobs generated by immigrant businesses do not always address this problem.” – June 28, 1995

“Immigration policy must protect U.S. workers against unfair competition from foreign workers, with an appropriately higher level of protection to the most vulnerable in our society”– June 28, 1995

– August 3, 1994

Solution: Reduce Unnecessary Worker Visas



Turn Off the Jobs Magnet
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“Employment continues to be the principal magnet attracting illegal aliens to this country. As long as U.S. businesses benefit from the hiring of unauthorized workers, control of unlawful immigration will be impossible.” – August 3, 1994

“This is a nation governed by the rule of law. It applies to all. It is as illegal knowingly to hire someone who is breaking the law as it is illegal to work under false pretences.” –September 29, 1994

– September 29, 1994

Solution: Implement Mandatory E-Verify


Prevent Illegal Immigration
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“To make sense about the national interest in immigration, it is necessary to make distinctions between those who obey the law, and those who violate it. Therefore, we disagree, also, with those who label our efforts to control illegal immigration as somehow inherently anti-immigrant. Unlawful immigration is unacceptable.”– February 24, 1995

– August 9, 1994

Solution: Reduce Illegal Immigration Rewards






Increase Border Security
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“Far more can and should be done to meet the twin goals of border management: deterring illegal crossings while facilitating legal ones. But we have to recognize both goals.” – February 24, 1995

– March 29, 1995

Solution: Improve Border Enforcement

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What a disgusting man. Maybe these dreamers (first I’ve heard of this term) should do what his wife did and just marry a rich native.
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I share that users sentiment too that, unless they’re 100% Native American they too were immigrants. So it’s pretty funny to see (usually) bigots worried about immigration when go back a generation or 4 and there’s pappy from the homeland.

BS--- I was born in Queens NY, my family traces back to the Mayflower and immigrants from Germany (legal). My family has fought in every war this nation had. I am not the same as an immigrant and I am sure as hell different from an illegal Alien.

There is much flaw in your logic and reasoning
 
Your country forced you to go back to another country you haven’t seen since you were a kid to find a new life in what may be far worse circumstances than those in the U.S., but…that’s life?

That’s seriously your argument?
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Apple does not employ 2 million people anywhere. Indirectly by counting suppliers and developers, maybe, but the real number of people hired directly by Apple is on the order of 100,000.
I'm literally quoting Tim Cook, so you can take your disagreement up with him.

Source: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/24/apple-confirms-iowa-data-center/
 
Yes, and I'm a LEGAL immigrant who spent a fortune coming to this country. Multiple interviews, countless lawyers, a process that took nearly 10 f'n years. Don't give me this BS about feelings.

To the back of the line!

You're also lying, Jason. Google exists.

Spare us this delusional fake identity you've created for yourself online. Have some dignity.
 
This is why we should never listen to Trumpers - they cause businesses to fail by hiring untalented people instead of talented people. That's why they are failures.

The US isn't based on "rule of law". We are based on "rule of people".

The people override the law. The law doesn't override the people.

If you don't like Democracy, you can go back to Russia.

"We are a nation of laws, not men." -John Adams

We are not a democracy, we're a Constitutional Republic.

This is why no one should listen to people like you.
 
Then why were almost 30% of those "children" over the age of 19. We have had 35 reported cases in Northern Virginia where DACA "children" in High School were found to be 24 years and up to 30 years old. Yes sir - - Obama forbade DHS from demanding proof of age or physicals to determine if the claims of minor status was true.
...

Erm... the programme is extended to people who arrived as children. Children do tend to grow into adults. Also, there is no verifiable way to judge somebody's age definitively while they are alive, and not everybody comes from a country in which documentation is given regarding birth. Thus, I gather there was a deliberate decision to err on the side of granting people DACA status. I presume this was on the basis of avoiding treating any child immorally even at the cost of letting some adults take advantage of the system.

In any case, please let us know where you got your 30% figure from. Frankly, I'd like to know what reliable source keeps those kind of statistics. My guess is that none do.

I grew up in Fairfax County. It was always a diverse place due to various immigrants arriving one way or another (typically refugees from proxy wars during the Cold War). I am shocked to see how people are reacting against this diversity now, as if Northern Virginia is poor and there is no jobs for people there. :rolleyes:
 
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If we deport them, we are punishing them for what their parents did.

If we give them legitimate citizenship, we are (in a sense) rewarding their parents for breaking the law and spitting in the faces of every other immigrant who went through the proper channels to become a US citizen. Will this encourage more people to try the same stunt?

No easy solution to this, IMO.
What we do now will inform the behavior of foreign human beings not just for "today", but for generations to come. If we reward their parents' lack of action to actually LOOK AFTER their children and ensure that they properly sought citizenship, then we'll just have more of the same: People coming in and doing NOTHING to assimilate. It may sound cruel, but we should not reward them if we don't want a repeat.

So over 200 positions were filled by "dreamers" instead of legal citizens. Nice.
Yep, that's how I see it. DACA was never meant to be permanent. It's not a right.

Apple should be raided as they employ 250 illegal migrants. Several hundreds millions to cash in.
Probably not while DACA is in effect, but maybe that can be part of the rescinding of DACA.

As a stockholder Mr Cook has been doing a STELLAR job running Apple and taking the company to EPIC heights of growth in 10 years that towers over anything seen by AN AMERICAN company in modern history.
But he still needs to respect and follow the laws of his country.

For those who are appalled by his remarks or his personal or corporate policies made public - strange that it's o-k that Haliburton or Blackwater or any other multinational corporation who truly and purposefully affect POLICY that runs our lives and lives of people all around the world COVERTLY -- suddenly transparent remarks like those made by Cook are the ones that must be stopped. How bout just saying that we are living inside a Fascist dictatorship that is struggling to maintain its power by degrading democracy as we know it in the midst of an evolving global political transformation.
Well, you shouldn't get too concerned. Companies like Apple, Fakebook, and now Google can and do purge their own ranks of anybody not part of the "group-think" culture.

...I'm Greek. Why did my tiny country with a low GDP naturalize 2 million or more Albanian refugees when we could barely care for our own people? Should the Greek people somehow just "export" them all out of our lands or was it just better to let GOLDMAN SACHS destroy our economy, steal our wealth, allow Europe to sell off our infrastructure to the Germans and say it's all the fault of our own immigrant population?? ...
Greece is right now in the process of becoming not-Greece. It's financially insolvent because the people and their government representatives aren't willing to do any of the hard work required to remain a going concern. If you continue on your current path, you'll soon be ripe for conquest, whether militarily or financially. Your post shows unclear thinking, which is going to be the enabler of Greece's ultimate downfall.

If you don't like what Tim is doing you should just quit. I'd fire you if I learned you were posting negative things about your own CEO on social media and I was your boss. Its not professional.
Ooooh, you'd get along nicely at Fakebook and Google! Just purge those who disagree with the corporate group-think culture.

Exactly.

I find it curious how often immigrants are amongst the most rabid anti-immigration… as if now that they're OK they want to shut "the rest" out…
Kicking downwards as they clamber up the greasy pole.
Your premise is 100% wrong. Immigrants (and their children and grandchildren) are often the most rabid opponents of ILLEGAL immigration.

Stop accusing people of being against immigration when they're really opposed to ILLEGAL immigration. Just stop it.

Case in point DACA where these people didn't chose to sidestep all the legal process but where underage when their parents did. Hence this whole debate, is it so hard to get it through your head ?
Letting them stay would be like rewarding their parents for bad decisions and ongoing bad parenting. Letting them stay would also reward the Congress by allowing them to sidestep the hard work of enacting real and true immigration reform.

I'm sure a dufus married three times because he couldn't keep a woman the first time understands that issue.
This is very sad. I have a friend who does this (name calling and drawing one's character into question as a way to stop conversation) and it does nothing but make me think less of him.

The indigenous peoples of the new world had battles for territory too.
If anything, the plight of the native American peoples should make it clear to all that defense of one's self and one's own people is a critical issue. He who doesn't attend to it may be doomed to losing his land, or his life. This story has repeated itself thousands of times in the course of human history. A strong defense is critical, for your home AND for your country!
 
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BS--- I was born in Queens NY, my family traces back to the Mayflower and immigrants from Germany (legal). My family has fought in every war this nation had. I am not the same as an immigrant and I am sure as hell different from an illegal Alien.

There is much flaw in your logic and reasoning
No flaw at all, I’m pointing out immigrants. That’s what we’re talking about right, without any precursor words? You’re an immigrant. Nothing makes you different to a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant. You should look into the people who used to own America, research your heritage.
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Social Justice Warrior
What’s that?
 
No flaw at all, I’m pointing out immigrants. That’s what we’re talking about right, without any precursor words? You’re an immigrant. Nothing makes you different to a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant. You should look into the people who used to own America, research your heritage.
[doublepost=1504545443][/doublepost]
What’s that?
Guys who can't get a date. o_O
 
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And realty tv "actors" need to stay the hell out of government and stick to making brain dead tv.
Correct. Though it’s weird to see Arnie be on the side of the good guys, despite being a conservative.
 
Aren't all Americans illegal immigrants in a way? Why was it okay hundreds of years ago? Hypocrites.


Hmmm - you posed the question - so what were the "native" immigration laws in effect in the 1500s until Europeans arrived? Who were the "native" people at the time? Were they what we call "Indians"? Or were they of Asian descent from across the Bearing Strait many hundreds / thousands of years earlier?

Hmm - my calendar says we are in 2017 - so what is the relevance of the answer to your question?
 
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Sigh.... wrong again. The reason border apprehensions dropped is we stopped looking and stopping them. Obama instituted a frisk and release program in 2009. And interior enforcement was stopped altogether. Bush was also guilty of this as well.

And Obama was lying when he said he deported more illegals than anyone.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.

The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.

Expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen steadily since his first year in office, and are down more than 40% since 2009.

The shift in who gets tallied helped the administration look tough in its early years but now may be backfiring politically. Immigration advocates plan protests across the country this week around what they say will be the 2 millionth deportation under Obama — a mark expected to be hit in the next few days. And Democratic strategists fret about a decline in Latino voter turnout for this fall's election.

Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.

On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.
The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.

The shift in who gets tallied helped the administration look tough in its early years but now may be backfiring politically. Immigration advocates plan protests across the country this week around what they say will be the 2 millionth deportation under Obama — a mark expected to be hit in the next few days. And Democratic strategists fret about a decline in Latino voter turnout for this fall's election.

Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.

I think you are confusing 'stop and frisk' with 'catch and release' two separate policies the latter was a policy instituted in the 90's. It's ludicrous to assert that, "border apprehensions dropped is we stopped looking and stopping them". ICE enforcement increased under Obama. The Border Patrol’s budget has expanded from $5.9 billion 2003 to $11.9 billion in 2013, while ICE’s grew from $3.3 billion to $5.9 billion. Most of that to increase the amount of southern border patrol agents. As of 2013, the two agencies had a total budget of nearly $18 billion, and that number increased to nearly $20 billion in 2016.

The change in how deportations were tallied occurred under the Bush administration (your own article states that) which means that not only did the Clintons deport more than G.W. Bush but since Bush tallied the same as Obama it means that Obama deported more than Bush as well. Hilarious! So much for the oft touted left wing conspiracy on immigration.

Statistically even with the tally change, ICE deported more than 2 million immigrants during the eight years Obama was in office, more than in the previous administration. Republican lawmakers and some ICE officials did complain that they were directed to ignore some immigrants found living in the country illegally if they didn’t have serious criminal histories or otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety. That was a rational policy to focus resources on the most dangerous illegals in the country.

In the 105 years between 1892 and 1997, the U.S. officially deported 2.1 million people — meaning that under presidents Bush and Obama, the number of people officially deported by the U.S. in the course of a century was more than doubled in just 16 years of consecutive presidencies.

All these changes in laws and tallying etc only point to one thing, that the law continues to be enforced. The fact that you think there hasn't been 'enough' enforcement is simply a statistical no-mans land as no one knows how many deportations are enough in your mind. Your assertions are simply not borne out by the facts themselves.
 
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Just because you're in the United States doesn't make you an American, just like if an American moves to Japan, or have a child there, non of them will ever become Japanese. A child born in Japan to American parents will have no problems moving to the US at any point in his or her life. Race, culture and language are the main things that group people together. If a child was brought here by illegal immigrants from Mexico, you can be pretty sure that that child has been brought up here steeped in Mexican culture, with Mexican values, eating Mexican food and speaking Spanish. The parents probably don't speak any English or have any knowledge (or interest) of American history or culture. If a child of these people were to be sent back to Mexico, yes, he would lose friends that he has here. But this is not the end of the world or different from any of the hundreds of thousands of families in the US that move with their children to another city or to another country for temporary work. I moved 10 times when I was a child and always found new friends where I moved.

If a DACA child is sent back to Mexico, he will find himself in a familiar culture, with people who look like him and who speaks the same language. I'm also pretty certain that the child will have plenty of family in Mexico. So no big deal. To some, I may sound cold hearted, but we have laws about how you can immigrate to the US, and this has to be followed. Just like Mexico deports any illegal immigrants in their country (it's amazing that we rarely hear anyone talk about this incredible double standard).

If we didn't have a welfare system, I wouldn't be so concerned with sending illegals back. But since our national debt have doubled from $10T to $20T since 2008, we simply can not afford it.

I happen to know somebody who was brought here at a young age and is undocumented. And you know what? All her connections and family are here. Her friends are here. Her entire life is here. Sending her back "home" would be sending her to a strange land that she does not know. She will suffer unreasonably for it.

She is here through no fault of her own. Why in the heck should we punish her for that? Nothing against her parents, but they're the ones who broke the law. Should we blame the child for the crimes of the parents? Not to mention that they came here seeking a better life because her country is a total **** show.

As for obtaining papers to stay here legally? She's been WORKING on that. And also terrified because trying to get papers makes you noticed, and increases the chances of your being deported. It can be a damned if you do, slightly less chance of being damned if you don't situation. It's NOT SIMPLE. These are human lives we're talking about, not just numbers on a piece of paper.

Thankfully she ended up marrying a US citizen a few years ago and has now been able to get her green card approved. But she took a GREAT RISK to do this, and if not for her husband she would still be at risk.

We are one of the richest countries in the world; we can afford to help these people, rather than kick them out to unknown and possibly hostile lands. Saying we "cannot afford it" is ridiculous when you look at the overall budget and how much we spend on the military and pointless wars overseas. It's like a wealthy family saying they can't afford to pay their staff a living wage when there's seven Ferraris in the garage.
 
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I am a grandchild of immigrants on one side and a great (or great-great) grandchild of immigrants on the other. All European (that I know of; but then there were those conquerors back in the 8th, 12th, and 16th centuries...or was that the 14th century? :eek:;)

When my ancestors developed peaceful intents and came to America, there were STRICT controls on immigration. You had to be healthy. No diseases allowed in. If you were an adult, you had to have a skill; something to offer your new country. There was no welfare for you to enter into once landing on our shores, nobody to give you a card to buy food, beer, and video games. If you wanted to eat, you had to WORK.

Why would we NOT require some level of investment from people who want to move here? So yes, I am in favor of strict controls on immigration, including sending them back when their temporary stays have expired. We need rules, because this is how we built a strong country. Not enforcing rules and proper behavior does nothing but weaken our country day by day.

I am strongly in favor of LEGAL immigration with those controls in place. Liberals in Congress and the complicit group-think media like to leave off the adjective "illegal", implying (or outright claiming) that I and people like me are opposed to all immigration, when nothing could be further from the truth. I am opposed to ILLEGAL immigration. Get it right; speak the truth. If you don't, then you misrepresent me. You are lying. This is one reason that people hate the media.

I am opposed to the rampant, uncontrolled opening of the floodgates, especially as now when there are no controls in place to prevent a big influx from parts of the world who hate my nation's culture so much that they see nothing wrong with coming here, not assimilating, and instead committing terror acts in my country's streets, at schools, concerts, or at softball practices.

Allowing the hoards in without any checks is a form of "national promiscuous behavior" (committed by a country, not an individual) that will be the beginning of the downfall of a great nation. I think that we can still turn this around; we just need to drop the weak SJW pretenses, make some difficult decisions, and then carry them out with all due intent, and enforce them with a firm spine.

Human behavior can and will change to adapt to the expectations that we set, but only if we demonstrate that we are willing and able to enforce them. Sometimes being tough is actually the kindest thing one can do. America needs to develop more toughness if it is to survive.
 
Your statement assumes - without providing proof - that employment is a zero-sum game. You're also assuming that these Dreamers don't want to be naturalized, which I believe is untrue - the obstacles are on the US side.

Currently the country is just about at what is considered by economists to be "full employment". While there are certainly some people who will fall through the cracks, most of the folks who currently can't find work just have a skill set which isn't in demand. The reason coal miners are unemployed, for example, is not because their jobs have been stolen by illegal immigrants... it's because there's little demand for coal miners now.


I have a very fundamental question - why don't all of these hard working, intelligent, creative "dreamer types" stay in their country and

FIX THEIR COUNTRY instead of coming over to ours? We did it, why can't they?

Let those "tired / poor / yearning to be free" stay home and create their utopia there.
 
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