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but both the Air and Retina offered the same battery life on previous models. so why wouldn't that trend stick? if they both got 7 hours on sandy bridge they should both get 12 hours on haswell

The trend will not stick, because it seems like retina screen is the main battery killer. Look at Apples website, the 15 cMBP has a 77,5 wh battery and the rMBP has 95 wh battery (and more efficient RAM/SSD). Both have 7 hours of battery life. Some tests indicate that the retina screens eats up 10-24 Watt (depending on the backlight mode). Unless they use less power hungry IGZO displays, the screen's power consumption matters more than the processor's.

Futhermore the 13'' Air gained most battery life by using a lower clocked processor (with equal performance) and a 54 wh battery (last year 50wh). The leaked geekbench shows, that a 4950hq with Iris 5200 pro is likely. There is no ULV version of it and the power consumption is not miraculously low: http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2013/intel-iris-pro-5200-grafik-im-test/6/ The expected processor performance is about last years 2,7 ghz version. So even a lower clocked version would not help, without loosing performance. And if you compare the logic boards of an Iris 5200 pro version: http://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/50900/4/ with last years rMBP: http://www.ifixit.com/MacBook-Parts/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-2-3-GHz-Logic-Board/IF117-011 you see that a missing dedicated card would not free up much space. These are the reasons, why I think, that the trend will not stick. I would lower my expectation of huge battery boost to an 1-2 hour increase in idle. I expect that under full load and heavy use, this thing will die as fast as last years rMBP.
 
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What are possible bits that could fill a potential void where the dGPU was on the board?
 
Yeah, see bobbydd21's response. It really is just like getting a brand new computer. The only difference is the box.

I'm not a cheap person, and I upgrade my laptop every year, so I'm not saying this as someone strapped for cash. But there's really no reason not to get a refurb unless, like I said, you're itching for a newly introduced model that simply hasn't had enough months of being "out there" to be offered as a refurb.

Also, keep in mind that Apple is a ShopDiscover partner, so you can save an additional 5% on top by going through that portal and using a Discover card. This helps negate the effect of that pesky sales tax that you don't necessarily incur by going through a third party reseller when buying a "new" model.

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I've not really noticed any battery improvement under Mavericks.

Matt Gemmell on Twitter is posting 11-13 hour MacBook Air battery life on Mavericks.
 
It's not battery life while idle that improved for me. It's battery life while actually working. It seems like Apple did implement an on-demand screen update feature that completely turns off screen updates for applications that are not displaying to the screen. As a result, I'm running the same number of applications as before, but I'm getting some hours more battery life... especially when the dGPU is on while running applications like Photoshop.



1. Slight better processor... not really. You're getting the very same performance numbers as last year's model because your clock speeds are limited.

2. Possibly thinner? No... unless you want the same amount of battery life as last year. This isn't the iPad.

A bit lighter? Same as above.

3.Better WIFI? It'll only matter if you have to transfer files a lot. Your internet speed likely won't get any faster. And even if it does, your connections to most websites still wouldn't matter because people are cheap and they don't want to pay so that you can load their websites 0.1s faster.

4. Better SSD? Seriously? The new Haswell MacBook Air already has that faster SSD. But aside from spewing out higher numbers in benchmark, I don't think it actually does anything substantial to improve day to day usage. Current SSD is already saturating the needs of most people.

5. And last but not least, even before the Haswell refresh hits, you can get a refurb 15" rMBP with dedicated GPU and 7 hours of battery life for $1599. Right now. That's $500 off the price tag.

6. Ultimately, is the very same machine with possibly 1-2 hours of extra battery life doing nothing on the desktop... worth $500 extra for you?

It's not about the folks who already got their rMBPs. It's about which one offers the better bang for your bucks.

1: Well no not really. It is slightly better just like he said. The cache on the 15" Iris Pro chip is not only for the iGPU but the CPU also.
So there is a bit of a performance boost there. And if applications are optimized for it, it can do more. Haswell is mostly a performance per clock upgrade, But the cpu performance is still a SLIGHT upgrade from Ivy bridge.

2: Yes it can be both thinner and lighter. You have NO idea about if it will or not.
Since Haswell is less power hungry and the 15" will be missing a dGPU (most likely) there is room for some improvements. And there may be other optimizations they can do also. Just like they have done before.

3: You do realize people do more then just surf with their computers right?
A lot of people are backing up their works every day. And got most of their work/files on a NAS or things like that.
Also many have upgraded their routers to AC already (Im one of them). And AC WiFi does a HUGE difference compared to N.

4: The SSD is more or less a benchmark thing yes. You will notice it in some situations. But in normal usage you wont.

5: True they are cheap now. And a good choice. At least the 15" is. The 13" is a different story.
But since we don't know what price point the new line will have. Or what upgrades will come. It is still better to wait it you don't really need one right now.

6: This is just speculation from your side also.
Their could be huge improvements in the new line. There is just no way to know right now. We could see stuff like IGZO, 4k, TB2, Redesign, and so on... And the battery can be more then 2h for sure. (especially if it gets a IGZO screen)
We just don't know now. And that's the reason why buying now, if you don't really need one this moment, is a bad idea.
 
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6: This is just speculation from your side also.
Their could be huge improvements in the new line. There is just no way to know right now. We could see stuff like IGZO, 4k, TB2, Redesign, and so on... And the battery can be more then 2h for sure. (especially if it gets a IGZO screen)
We just don't know now. And that's the reason why buying now if you don't really need one, this moment. Is a bad idea.

This is what makes me have a little optimism for the keynote - there's gotta be *some* wow factor beyond all the speculation here.
 
Today I was at the store (again) to checkout the Retina (again). Damn, this thing is awesome compared to my Air. And for the n-th time I decided to wait for the Haswell Retina :) It's Awesome :D
 
I just find it hard to believe that with all of Apple's secrecy the collective here on MR has figured out *everything* about the new rMBP? o_O

We have. We're gonna be disappointed. I highly doubt there's something special coming. IGZO is too soon...it is definitely possible for next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if they held of till 2015 for that as well. TB2 is supposed to come out this upcoming spring or something.. isn't it? 4K again sounds like something that would be in next years line up, and we just got a redesign for the 15". If they stick in more battery in the spot for the dGPU, it's really only gonna add like 5% more.
 
We have. We're gonna be disappointed. I highly doubt there's something special coming. IGZO is too soon...it is definitely possible for next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if they held of till 2015 for that as well. TB2 is supposed to come out this upcoming spring or something.. isn't it? 4K again sounds like something that would be in next years line up, and we just got a redesign for the 15". If they stick in more battery in the spot for the dGPU, it's really only gonna add like 5% more.

After the announcement/release it'd be interesting to run a poll here to see what people ended up doing, if there was any changed minds, etc. ;)
 
After the announcement/release it'd be interesting to run a poll here to see what people ended up doing, if there was any changed minds, etc. ;)

At least 70% of people who said they wouldn't upgrade are going to upgrade anyway because they don't want to wait another 12 months. But yeah, I guess looking forward to the commotion. Hoping for Iris Pro to blow all of our presumptions away. If not, I'll be annoyed in general, even if I skip the upgrade.
 
I still find it interesting that the analysts are pegging the delays on the retina screen manufacturing. If it was the same screen tech as last year why would they have this problem now? Leads me to believe they changed something, maybe due to the image retention issues of the 1st gen. Or maybe switching to IGZO.
 
I still find it interesting that the analysts are pegging the delays on the retina screen manufacturing. If it was the same screen tech as last year why would they have this problem now? Leads me to believe they changed something, maybe due to the image retention issues of the 1st gen. Or maybe switching to IGZO.

personally, I think it's more likely that the analysts are wrong
 
I still find it interesting that the analysts are pegging the delays on the retina screen manufacturing. If it was the same screen tech as last year why would they have this problem now? Leads me to believe they changed something, maybe due to the image retention issues of the 1st gen. Or maybe switching to IGZO.

I'd say it's highly probably they're doing things "better" this time around cus of the crazy image retention issues of last time, so that could be the delay. Imo it's not really a delay unless it doesn't come out passed October. I'd say they could come out during WWDC or October, but it doesn't always have to be 12 months later. It doesss seem like they would have released them in June had it not been for some issue though. If dell is coming out with IGZO this fall, then idk why Apple couldn't, but it still seems really unlikely to me. I know high res notebook displays were a first for them, but IGZO seems like it'd be harder to mass produce for first time adaptation. I could be way off though. If it's true, then we're looking at super "Pro" ;) battery life :D
 
I still find it interesting that the analysts are pegging the delays on the retina screen manufacturing. If it was the same screen tech as last year why would they have this problem now? Leads me to believe they changed something, maybe due to the image retention issues of the 1st gen. Or maybe switching to IGZO.

I like the way you're thinking. I agree. Why would there be a delay? Also Fujitsu I believe is shipping a IGZO screen in one of its notebooks. Read it on The Verge. It's not for sale in the US right now & has a 14-inch screen. MacBook Air competitor over there.
 
I like the way you're thinking. I agree. Why would there be a delay? Also Fujitsu I believe is shipping a IGZO screen in one of its notebooks. Read it on The Verge. It's not for sale in the US right now & has a 14-inch screen. MacBook Air competitor over there.

well you can buy it in japan and get shipped to US which my buddy did and i have to say that laptop is pretty much amazing only one thing that is bothering me is the keyboard is japanese and the space bar is so damn tiny but still it is a nice laptop :)
 
1: Well no not really. It is slightly better just like he said. The cache on the 15" Iris Pro chip is not only for the iGPU but the CPU also.
So there is a bit of a performance boost there. And if applications are optimized for it, it can do more. Haswell is mostly a performance per clock upgrade, But the cpu performance is still a SLIGHT upgrade from Ivy bridge.

2: Yes it can be both thinner and lighter. You have NO idea about if it will or not.
Since Haswell is less power hungry and the 15" will be missing a dGPU (most likely) there is room for some improvements. And there may be other optimizations they can do also. Just like they have done before.

3: You do realize people do more then just surf with their computers right?
A lot of people are backing up their works every day. And got most of their work/files on a NAS or things like that.
Also many have upgraded their routers to AC already (Im one of them). And AC WiFi does a HUGE difference compared to N.

4: The SSD is more or less a benchmark thing yes. You will notice it in some situations. But in normal usage you wont.

5: True they are cheap now. And a good choice. At least the 15" is. The 13" is a different story.
But since we don't know what price point the new line will have. Or what upgrades will come. It is still better to wait it you don't really need one right now.

6: This is just speculation from your side also.
Their could be huge improvements in the new line. There is just no way to know right now. We could see stuff like IGZO, 4k, TB2, Redesign, and so on... And the battery can be more then 2h for sure. (especially if it gets a IGZO screen)
We just don't know now. And that's the reason why buying now, if you don't really need one this moment, is a bad idea.

1) You have slightly better performance per clock but you also have lower overall clockspeed with the Iris Pro-equipped lineup. So in reality, you aren't gaining any performance at all. Look at the Haswell MacBook Air. Performance improvement? Hardly. Just better battery life.

2) They removed the dGPU in the 15" lineup before. There wasn't any significant change to thickness or weight of the machine. Again, this isn't the iPad. If you think otherwise, I think you will be sorely disappointed.

3) If you are a professional and your work is so important, you wouldn't want to use NAS or any network solution to back up your work at all. Straight up connection to Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 is far faster and far more secure for that stuff. Or please feel free to prove me wrong.

4) Hence it's not exactly an 'enhancement'

5) Iris Pro equipped CPUs cost the same as non-Iris CPU + dGPU. If you are expecting Apple to cut prices, then they will have to do so elsewhere. Also dropping prices on the Retina line would cannibalize the Air line. I don't think they want to do that... at least not until they migrate the Air line to Retina as well.

6) It's not speculation. It's common sense. IGZO is prohibitively expensive... so unless you want a price hike on the Retina line, I wouldn't expect it right now. People were going crazy about OLED on MacBooks as well. But again, this is one of those things that just can't happen. 4K is already supported on the current rMBP since they have HDMI 1.4 ports. If you are talking about 4K at 60Hz, then it'll only be possible through Thunderbolt 2.0 until they finalize the specs for HDMI 2.0 next year. So you're losing Thunderbolt channel bandwidth to drive a display. That's not really a worthwhile tradeoff if you need the Thunderbolt channels for something else... (like an external video decoder/encoder + high speed Thunderbolt transport) I'd wait until next year to get HDMI 2.0 personally, so I don't have to clog my Thunderbolt channels. Oh, and that's pretty useless in reality as well, unless Apple wants to be the first to market with a 4K 60Hz display.

Why buy now? Because Apple can't make miracles happen... as much as people wish for them to do so.

When all clues point to Haswell being this regular and insignificant upgrade, why must you make up reasons for it to be something it's not? This is just as futile as wishing for this refresh to happen before the usual October event.

I don't get this... I said in March and April of this year that an 'upgrade' just happened in February, so people shouldn't hold their breath for another one anytime soon, but people waited for WWDC... and then June... and then July... and then August... and now September...

Sigh...
 
What are possible bits that could fill a potential void where the dGPU was on the board?

simply another dgpu.

lets make this clear, while there will be probably a version without a dgpu, there will be a version with dgpu.

while we are here lets just say that geekench is another trash synth benchie that serves no purpose
 
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