Why I'm switching to PC after 17 years of being on a Mac

[Queen6]

Probably the same thing most people are looking for when they post: To share their experiences and be heard.

Apple's an incredible company, and a pretty unique one. They've got a lot of long-term die-hard fans. A lot of the people in this forum haven't been alive as long as I've been using Macs, or for that matter, as long as I've been using the OS which is now being called "macOS". People have strong feelings about Apple, and the Mac platform, and MacOS.

So they talk about how they feel. And maybe other people say "hey, I'm there too". Or they say "I felt the same way about this, but then I found this app which made that problem better". Or whatever else. And maybe the information's helpful. And maybe it's not.

And sometimes if I'm not sure about a thing, I'll look to see what people on forums are saying about their own experience.

And the only people I generally find it's completely a waste of time to listen to are the ones who are spending their time telling us how much of a waste of time it is to listen to people or think about what they say.
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I think they're going to keep cutting out the high end, because the high end is more expensive to compete in, and profit margins aren't as high. They've done a great job of getting people comfortable paying absolutely top prices for mid-range hardware. So they are gonna make money hand over fist while it lasts. In the long run, though, I think they're starting to seriously hurt their long-term market share, by driving away some of the longest-term and most loyal customers.

Back when basically no news story about Apple was complete without the word "beleaguered", we're the ones who stuck with them because they had an incredible product.

Now I see crap like the iPhone 7 (seriously, no headphone jack, what are they thinking), and I notice how much money they're making on that, and how much they're dropping work on what used to be their core focus. MacOS releases used to consistently improve stability and reliability. From 10.9 to 10.12, I haven't seen anything that was as stable as my experiences with 10.6, 10.7, and 10.8. It's been consistently worse, and it's not improving. I have more open bugs about actual crash/data loss issues in my bug reporter account than I used to, and I don't remember the last time I saw a reported bug get fixed. It used to be they tended to get fixed because Apple cared about crashes. Now they care about that initial shiny experience in the store.

And that means a lot of people have gone, or are going, from "loyal apple customer" to "former loyal apple customer". Back before the Retina MBP came out, if you'd asked me if I'd be using a Mac in 2018, I'd have said I expected to be. Now I don't think I will be. And I have bought a lot of Mac hardware over the years.

Similar thoughts; I have moved my 13" class portable to Microsoft`s Surface Book for very similar concerns & reasons. Personally I think I may well have bought my last Mac as of 2015, with too much sacrificed, most of all productivity. Apple is now solely concerned about serving Apple and it`s own margin, the change is tangible, maybe more so for longterm customers...

I tallied up the value of Surface Book and the 2016 13" MBP, one simply made no sense as at best it would only be a slight improvement over my existing 13" Retina. The price point for me does not intimidate, even the high tier 15" as my hardware pays for itself very rapidly, however I find the value significantly lacking in 2016, advancements are minuscule & trade off`s far to much...

Q-6

 

[aevan]

I think they're going to keep cutting out the high end, because the high end is more expensive to compete in, and profit margins aren't as high. They've done a great job of getting people comfortable paying absolutely top prices for mid-range hardware.

What mid-range hardware? Because they don't have Nvidia? Or 32Gb? They literally made a computer inside the computer just to drive the Touch Bar. They made a keyboard that feels deeper than it is. They made a trackpad that clicks without actually clicking. The screen is one of the most beautiful things in the world of computing. Hardware is not just Mhz or Mb or the number of shaders.

You don't have to like them, but MBPs are high-end hardware.
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trade off`s far to much...

Q-6

Didn't notice any.

 

[Queen6]

Didn't notice any.

Not for you, for others yes, and that`s a point worth considering.

Q-6

 

[Mildredop]

It will never happen as Microsoft's core business from the start was licenses.

And Nokia's core business used to be paper. But I'm sure they moved into something else. Hmm, what was it now...

Maybe, just maybe, Microsoft might choose to change the direction of its core business.

 

[therealseebs]

And Nokia's core business used to be paper. But I'm sure they moved into something else. Hmm, what was it now...

Maybe, just maybe, Microsoft might choose to change the direction of its core business.

Why would they want to? They are currently able to collect money from dozens of other vendors without doing all the R&D. Apple has made it pretty clear that the complete vertical integration thing has made it completely impractical to serve niche markets.

 

[bjet767]

dogs are still basically horses.

Sorry dogs come from wolfs and there is a genome work that goes way back:

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/3/1160.full


"Where the genetic divergence of dog and wolf took place remains controversial, with the most plausible proposals spanning Western Europe,[13][2] Central Asia,[13][14] and East Asia.[13][15] This has been made more complicated by the most recent proposal that fits the available evidence, which is that an initial wolf population split into East and West Eurasian wolves, these were then domesticated independently before going extinct into two distinct dog populations between 14,000–6,400 years ago, and then the Western Eurasian dog population was partially and gradually replaced by East Asian dogs that were brought by humans at least 6,400 years ago.[13][16][17]"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog

I am more than willing to discuss technical details and roots, something you appear to be against. I have posted the stuff on Windows and its history and now dog and yet you resort to stuff like "horses?"

Your hyperbole is unfitting at it best and worst.

BTW The issue with old Mac programs is they are written for the Motorola CPU and the old Mac OS. Today's OSX and its variations come from an Intel based code.

The emlutation stopped around ten years ago.

"Because it was built into all PowerPC versions of the classic Mac OS, the emulator was also part of the Classic environmentin Mac OS X. PowerPC Macintosh emulators such as SheepShaver therefore use the emulator as well when running the classic Mac OS. The emulator has been deprecated in 2006 following the transition to Intel processors.[citation needed]"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_68k_emulator

But the heart of Apple's OS has always been strong sandboxing of programs and its file system, yes I wrote code (very little though) for the Motorola based OS. Hated coding it BTW compared to MFC back in the day.

ObjectiveC (brought to Apple by Jobs from Next) and today's Swift with xCode are really good and robust coding languages and suite.

 

[aevan]

Not for you, for others yes, and that`s a point worth considering.

Q-6

But isn't that the case with every product? I can find downsides to every product for some people.

 

[therealseebs]

I chose the dog/horse example intentionally. Windows is not remotely based on DOS and hasn't been since XP or so. They now have a modern OS kernel, which is not remotely based on DOS. You have handwaved technical details and made claims that are basically nonsensical. The NT kernel is a complete new kernel, written from scratch, and is not even a tiny bit derived from DOS.

Heck, you used the registry as evidence that Windows was based on DOS. But the registry wasn't present in DOS! It was a new feature which was added in Windows 95.

MacOS X has pretty good sandboxing. System 7, MacOS 8, and MacOS 9 did not have good sandboxing at all; they were no better than old Windows was.

Windows is not in any way "DOS", and hasn't been since 2001 or earlier.

 

[Queen6]

But isn't that the case with every product? I can find downsides to every product for some people.

Yes, however you should consider that, before responding. The 2016 MPB is an ideal notebook for some, equally it has left others high & dry, solely due to aesthetic design choice, angering some customers. Ultimately all portables have compromise by nature, with Apple`s focus is becoming ever narrower.

Q-6

 

[therealseebs]

Yeah. Apple used to at least try to have significant differentiation, with some machines bigger/heavier/more powerful, and others smaller, thinner, and less powerful. And that was useful! There are things for which the Air is a good fit.

But now they're only doing small thin and low-power, and small thin and a bit higher power. Nothing comparable to the 17" machines, nothing even remotely comparable to the high end of PC laptop hardware. And that excludes a lot of users, and it's not clear that it's really serving the other user base any better.

... I also note, MacRumors being what it is, it is not obvious that it's possible for any machine that Apple ships not to be declared "ideal" and "visionary". Apple could declare that they were discontinuing MacOS and that 2017's MacBook Pro was going to be an upgraded iPad, and people would be saying "well most people don't need all that extra complexity, and iOS is very mature", and declaring that it was visionary and people were only complaining in order to complain.

 

[apolloa]

A note on pricing. Here in the UK the 2015, so last year's model not one from 5 years ago, costs £1899 and £1999 for the two different specs of the 15" model.
This year with the new models they are £2399 and £2699. Not exactly a small increase for a computer that's slower with worst battery life then last year's model!
I think that's reason enough to complain about it and change to a Windows computer.

 

[Queen6]

A note on pricing. Here in the UK the 2015, so last year's model not one from 5 years ago, costs £1899 and £1999 for the two different specs of the 15" model.
This year with the new models they are £2399 and £2699. Not exactly a small increase for a computer that's slower with worst battery life then last year's model!
I think that's reason enough to complain about it and change to a Windows computer.

Part of the UK pricing issue is the high local taxes combined with the change in the valuation of the currency thx to Brexit, equally Apple has acted very aggressively to ensure it suffers no loss of margin, however I am sure such tactics deter some from purchasing a Mac, nor do think that Apple even cares. Apple`s take it or leave attitude has always existed to some extents, just more obvious in 2016.

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[aevan]

Yes, however you should consider that, before responding. The 2016 MPB is an ideal notebook for some, equally it has left others high & dry, solely due to aesthetic design choice, angering some customers. Ultimately all portables have compromise by nature, with Apple`s focus is becoming ever narrower.

Q-6

It's feels like we're going in circles.

I would agree with some of the things you say, but you keep putting these things I can't go over in your posts. Yes, it is not a computer for everyone - true. But then you say "solely due to aesthetic design choice" - no, it's not thinner or smaller due to aesthetic design choice, it's thinner and smaller for the same reason Apple has been reducing the volume and weight of all their products for years: portability. That is a very practical design choice.

Also, I cannot agree their focus is becoming "ever narrower" - because if the new MacBook Pros are not for you, than MacBook Pros were not for you for the past 4 years - arguably even longer.
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This year with the new models they are £2399 and £2699. Not exactly a small increase for a computer that's slower with worst battery life then last year's model!

For the love of.... it's faster in every way. In. Every. Way. The CPU has a lower turbo boost speed that results in some synthetic benchmarks showing a lower score, but it throttles way less than the previous model, so in every real test it comes way ahead. It is noticeably, practically faster in real life. It is also faster in every other aspect - disk speed, GPU, memory. Calling this computer slower then the last year's model is either a consequence of being grossly misinformed, or a result of some emotional response to the prices.

On top of all that, performance specs are not the only ones dictating value for money. They may very well be all you care about, but that's just your point of view. Screen quality, build quality, weight and portability - they all come into play. In every way, apart from battery life, this computer is better than the previous one. And while battery life could be better, it's not half as bad as some people are presenting it. It's comparable to previous models - even though I was expecting more.

I'm not talking whether the jump in price was justified, but it's a faster and a better computer then the last year's model.

 

[Queen6]

It's feels like we're going in circles.

I would agree with some of the things you say, but you keep putting these things I can't go over in your posts. Yes, it is not a computer for everyone - true. But then you say "solely due to aesthetic design choice" - no, it's not thinner or smaller due to aesthetic design choice, it's thinner and smaller for the same reason Apple has been reducing the volume and weight of all their products for years: portability. That is a very practical design choice.

Also, I cannot agree their focus is becoming "ever narrower" - because if the new MacBook Pros are not for you, than MacBook Pros were not for you for the past 4 years - arguably even longer.

Port situation & battery life preclude, nor will you accept that the new MBP may just be be too compromised for others usage/workflow. The 2016 will not run adequately long enough on battery for my needs when I need it to, and apparently others, given the growing threads and numerous professional reviews, combined with ports that only add complication at present and near future for my usage.

Touch bar needs more time to develop, to see if it`s truly useful, much will depend on what Apple allows Dev`s to do with it, equally instinctively it seems rather un-Apple like, adding a third point of point of focus for the user to deal with. Time will tell...

You can go over other people opinions, equally understand that they are entitled to them and for there purpose correct. You could argue/debate with me all day about how the battery runtime is adequate, equally it will never change the fact that this 2014" 13" rMB will significantly out run the 2016 13" MBP with TB, let alone my Surface Book. Apple will no doubt improve on this situation, equally it may take Apple several years to get the battery life back to where it once was.

To me it`s far from practical as for the sake of 3mm (1/8") we have lost ports that will be relevant to many for the next 3-4 years and a good deal of battery capacity, the choice was one of aesthetics. Your off the mark instantly, I have owned and used every generation of the 15" MBP, this update being the exception, all serving me well.

Agree with your portability comment, equally it`s now an exercise in diminishing returns, with the 2016 MBP exemplifying this, with useful functionality being sacrificed for a very small improvement in real world portability. My portables are employed professionally, if the 2016 13" MBP was best in class for my needs I would be responding on one, fact is it`s not the optimal choice, nor is the 15" MBP at present for the same and additional reason.

Q-6

 

[apolloa]

Part of the UK pricing issue is the high local taxes combined with the change in the valuation of the currency thx to Brexit, equally Apple has acted very aggressively to ensure it suffers no loss of margin, however I am sure such tactics deter some from purchasing a Mac, nor do think that Apple even cares. Apple`s take it or leave attitude has always existed to some extents, just more obvious in 2016.

Q-6

The VAT rate has been set at 20% in the UK for several years now so that's not an excuse, and the pound has shot right back up against the dollar so again that's not a valid reason either. It's all excuses excuses excuses to price gouge or fleece or rip off the customer.
And even if you do argue about the over inflated price hike, the fact they perform WORST then last years/ gens model isn't forgivable for that cost.

 

[redheeler]

Cool story Bro. I guess you forgot about the old days when the 15" MacBook Pros cost over $2K.

Not sure if you checked the prices of the 2016 15" MBP, but it happens to start at $400 more than prior models going all the way back to 2006! Even the mid 2012 Retina started at $200 less, and the price increase was justified by a display which blew away all competing PC laptops and prior MBP models. I really did appreciate the display, although it suffered from the very common ghosting issue that was eventually fixed under warranty.

 

[Queen6]

The VAT rate has been set at 20% in the UK for several years now so that's not an excuse, and the pound has shot right back up against the dollar so again that's not a valid reason either. It's all excuses excuses excuses to price gouge or fleece or rip off the customer.
And even if you do argue about the over inflated price hike, the fact they perform WORST then last years/ gens model isn't forgivable for that cost.

Truth be know I wont be purchasing either 2016 MBP, my other posts clarify in detail. The price does not intimidate me, as my Mac`s pay for themselves, however I do object to the poor value they now represent, especially the 15" with it`s weak dGPU when put into context.

I do agree Apple to me is milking it`s PC customers to the max while the going is still good, in a diminishing market. Have said for sometime now "Apple only serves Apple", with the customer being way down on the list. It`s just more apparent now.

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[MH01]

Similar thoughts; I have moved my 13" class portable to Microsoft`s Surface Book for very similar concerns & reasons. Personally I think I may well have bought my last Mac as of 2015, with too much sacrificed, most of all productivity. Apple is now solely concerned about serving Apple and it`s own margin, the change is tangible, maybe more so for longterm customers...

I tallied up the value of Surface Book and the 2016 13" MBP, one simply made no sense as at best it would only be a slight improvement over my existing 13" Retina. The price point for me does not intimidate, even the high tier 15" as my hardware pays for itself very rapidly, however I find the value significantly lacking in 2016, advancements are minuscule & trade off`s far to much...

Q-6

Same here . Going to swap the 2016 for a 2015 return and with the extra cash buy a skull canyon max config, Mac mini is so poor these days , it's just now worth replacing.

My current apple gear will last me 3-5 years. I just don't agree with disposable computers, love my tech and just don't see the pleasure of owning the new apple stuff . My 2012 Mac mini I really enjoy, and I'm going to get more life out of it via an egpu....apple is becoming a consumer company , and my needs are a computer company.

 

[aevan]

Port situation & battery life preclude, nor will you accept that the new MBP may just be be too compromised for others usage/workflow. The 2016 will not run adequately long enough on battery for my needs when I need it to, and apparently others, given the growing threads and numerous professional reviews, combined with ports that only add complication at present and near future for my usage.


To me it`s far from practical as for the sake of 3mm (1/8") we have lost ports that will be relevant to many for the next 3-4 years and a good deal of battery capacity, the choice was one of aesthetics. Your off the mark instantly, I have owned and used every generation of the 15" MBP, this update being the exception, all serving me well.

Agree with your portability comment, equally it`s now an exercise in diminishing returns, with the 2016 MBP exemplifying this, with useful functionality being sacrificed for a very small improvement in real world portability. My portables are employed professionally, if the 2016 13" MBP was best in class for my needs I would be responding on one, fact is it`s not the optimal choice, nor is the 15" MBP at present for the same and additional reason.

Q-6

We haven't lost ports. For me, I have gained 4 USB ports instead of 2 I used to have. As well as two more TB ports. And three more display ports. With just a few new cables, I can now keep my external WD drive plugged in while I'm using my Wacom Intuos Pro, my Wacom Remote and still have a port to hook up my iPad Pro to charge it and use it for Astropad. They didn't remove the ports for the sake of 3mm, they could've kept these ports and made the computer thinner (as evidenced by certain Windows laptops). In fact, they didn't remove anything - they REPLACED the ports.

We've been over this numerous times - ergo the going in circles remark. You keep saying we've lost something because of the reduction of thickness, I say we gained something in addition to reduction of thickness.

As for the battery, for me it's pretty much the same as it was on the old MBP, but ok, I admit I was hoping for something better. Still, I don't see a drastic difference AND we get a lighter computer. It's something I can live with.


Honestly, I have to ask you - are you even using a new MBP? Speaking from experience? Or are you reading "numerous professional reviews" that are nothing more but clickbait that follows almost every Apple launch?

 

[Queen6]

Same here . Going to swap the 2016 for a 2015 return and with the extra cash buy a skull canyon max config, Mac mini is so poor these days , it's just now worth replacing.

My current apple gear will last me 3-5 years. I just don't agree with disposable computers, love my tech and just don't see the pleasure of owning the new apple stuff . My 2012 Mac mini I really enjoy, and I'm going to get more life out of it via an egpu....apple is becoming a consumer company , and my needs are a computer company.

Great choice on the Skull Canyon NUC this and the Surface Book are products I once imagined Apple would bring to market, before it became a fashion house for the concerning tech consumer...

Q-6

 

[apolloa]

For the love of.... it's faster in every way. In. Every. Way. The CPU has a lower turbo boost speed that results in some synthetic benchmarks showing a lower score, but it throttles way less than the previous model, so in every real test it comes way ahead. It is noticeably, practically faster in real life. It is also faster in every other aspect - disk speed, GPU, memory. Calling this computer slower then the last year's model is either a consequence of being grossly misinformed, or a result of some emotional response to the prices.

On top of all that, performance specs are not the only ones dictating value for money. They may very well be all you care about, but that's just your point of view. Screen quality, build quality, weight and portability - they all come into play. In every way, apart from battery life, this computer is better than the previous one. And while battery life could be better, it's not half as bad as some people are presenting it. It's comparable to previous models - even though I was expecting more.

I'm not talking whether the jump in price was justified, but it's a faster and a better computer then the last year's model.

Ive seen plenty of videos with people proclaiming it IS slower then last years model, a complete contradiction to what you think...

So the battery life's worst by several hours, the performance is slower, the price is increased by a significant margin, and your saying its value for money???

That's a strange idea about value for money. Your views in the performance of the machine and battery life is the opposite of the populous that's I've seen.
Granted it might be thinner and lighter, but nobody was asking for that and it's one reason why the populous claim it has worst performance and a worst battery life.

 

[johannnn]

Don't get OP. You like macOS etc, but you don't like the 2016 MBP. Just buy the 2015 MBP and be happy? Guess what, the touch bar is not gonna be premium price in a year or two.

 

[Queen6]

We haven't lost ports. For me, I have gained 4 USB ports instead of 2 I used to have. As well as two more TB ports. And three more display ports. With just a few new cables, I can now keep my external WD drive plugged in while I'm using my Wacom Intuos Pro, my Wacom Remote and still have a port to hook up my iPad Pro to charge it and use it for Astropad. They didn't remove the ports for the sake of 3mm, they could've kept these ports and made the computer thinner (as evidenced by certain Windows laptops). In fact, they didn't remove anything - they REPLACED the ports.

We've been over this numerous times - ergo the going in circles remark. You keep saying we've lost something because of the reduction of thickness, I say we gained something in addition to reduction of thickness.

As for the battery, for me it's pretty much the same as it was on the old MBP, but ok, I admit I was hoping for something better. Still, I don't see a drastic difference AND we get a lighter computer. It's something I can live with.


Honestly, I have to ask you - are you even using a new MBP? Speaking from experience? Or are you reading "numerous professional reviews" that are nothing more but clickbait that follows almost every Apple launch?

We will go round like this forever as you can only see it from your perspective and are potentially a little too invested in what boils down to be just another tech company. Some of us do not explicitly control the environments that our hardware is used in. Therefore we have lost relevant ports and will need to travel with multiple additional dongles/adapters this should be an easy concept to grasp. As I understand the 2016 may well have simplified your usage.

Battery life has been well documented by many with approximately 20%+ less endurance, it`s a fact and as an engineer unsurprising to me, as recovering the respective 25% & 34% depreciation in capacity via improved efficiency is no small feat by any means. This is also very clearly illustrated in numerous posts here on MR alone, or are they all just "clickbait"?

Let me put is as clearly as I possibly can; The 2016 MBP is not for me or many others. They do not offer relevant ports for my and many others needs, they will not run on battery as long under the same loads as their predecessors. Nor do they represent good value for some of us, especially the 15". They will however work for others adequately well, and they will be more than happy with Apple`s latest offering, as you clearly are.

I looked at all the 2016 MBP`s in detail at launch, currently they make no sense for my needs, other hardware does...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

For the love of.... it's faster in every way.

That's not what I've been reading. The SSD is crazy fast, no argument, but the CPU is slower, I've seen enough reviews that state normal work takes longer. The GPU seems decent, no fast, but decent.

As for the battery, that's just down right sad. The display is brighter (and thus taking more power), and the TouchBar is always processing in the background, yet Apple reduced the size of the battery. I don't know about you, but I can be away from a power outlet for hours on end. I want something that will last all day.

 

[Queen6]

Ive seen plenty of videos with people proclaiming it IS slower then last years model, a complete contradiction to what you think...

So the battery life's worst by several hours, the performance is slower, the price is increased by a significant margin, and your saying its value for money???

That's a strange idea about value for money. Your views in the performance of the machine and battery life is the opposite of the populous that's I've seen.
Granted it might be thinner and lighter, but nobody was asking for that and it's one reason why the populous claim it has worst performance and a worst battery life.

Not entirely sure that this reviewer is unbiased, equally many are and have clearly illustrated performance and battery runtimes. The other aspect is once you then compare the MBP to the full PC, they remain to be nice notebooks, however you must need to be willing to trade off for the portability. Example; VR is now rally becoming far more interesting, yet we as Mac owners/users are out of the game by default.

To me computers should advance in performance, not take retrograde steps. Personally I wanted to see the MBP advance to be a powerful desktop replacement not an Air on steroids. Yes Apple have got the 2nd best mobile CPU, however the dGPU will be rapidly overtaken by budget PC OEM`s, let alone the premium offerings.

I get people are excited about their new Mac, equally they should not expect everyone to fawn over hardware that does to make sense for their use case and or measurement of value.

Q-6