[WW] Bloodlust GAME OVER - WEREWOLVES WIN

[ravenvii]

My vote remains. Just too much risk. But not sure what's the big deal with chrmjenkins's idea. I remember a wolf once turned on the vamps before he was killed. I also saw it 'not in the spirit of the game' but no one said anything. But maybe I'm biased because I was a vamp then .

Just wanted this to be clear (to avoid any squabbling over this point in the future): that is perfectly within the spirit of the game.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Word of advice before I die. I don't think you can afford to leave KMM alive. Of you think it's so obvious that the wolves won't do it, that's all they need you to keep thinking while they feed on you AND his information. KMM could very possibly lead to the wolves convincing you to lynch your own hunter and undertaker, eliminating his protection and one shot. Is keeping him alive worth that risk?

SP, it's more than self preservation (like last round). It has something to offer the villagers, plus it's less people to consider for vote each round.

agreed. After KMM out himself all future infomation from him should be regarded as worthless

 

[jav6454]

This game just got really interesting

 

[appleguy123]

Anyone got a vote count?

 

[abijnk]

Voting record is updated. I will not be adding post number/order, maintaining the sheet is enough of a chore with everything else, if someone cares they can just look back and see.

Where we stand:

chrmjenkins - 9 (Rodimus Prime, NathanMuir, ucfgrad94, mexbearpig, abijnk, King Mook Mook, appleguy123, Don't Panic, SilentPanda)
King Mook Mook - 1 (jav6454)

1 more vote and we are rid of a self-proclaimed goth, traitor or not.

Just wanted this to be clear (to avoid any squabbling over this point in the future): that is perfectly within the spirit of the game.

Just to clarify, do you mean Rodimus's actions in the last game, or chrmjenkins's actions in this game, or both?

Personally, I think both are perfectly within the spirit of the game, I just don't trust chrmjenkins to follow through.

 

[lbro]

Chrmjenkins

 

[Mexbearpig]

Just wanted this to be clear (to avoid any squabbling over this point in the future): that is perfectly within the spirit of the game.

I guess it was just me being a vamp then . Pesky wolves !

agreed. After KMM out himself all future infomation from him should be regarded as worthless

I say we just ignore him (Sorry bro). We can't trust him, but this whole trusting the wolves to not infect and reverse pysycholigy thing I just don't know.

This game just got really interesting

Do you know what would make this a lot more interesting? LOLCats.

Wait. Why did KMM vote for Jav? He knows Chris is a goth so why not vote for him?

 

[appleguy123]

Chrmjenkins

Majority reached.
@ MexBearPig

 

[Mexbearpig]

Appleguy123.....you deserved it.

 

[appleguy123]

@ Mex. Jav voted for KMM, not the other way around.

 

[mscriv]

This game just got really interesting

Here's the dilemma we find ourselves in, according to the rules the the Alpha werewolf can use the infection ability at any time during the game. It's not a night time special ability, so KMM could already be infected if the wolf pack decided to act quickly after he revealed his role. This would at least give them one scan opportunity even if we decide to lynch him the next day. Hmmm....???

So, the question is, would the wolves risk wasting the infection knowing that we could lynch KMM right away? Is the infection worth losing just to take out the seer?

King Mook Mook, how do you propose that we maintain any trust in you at this point? Are you dedicated to being a "good guy" until the end? Would you tell us if you were infected thereby sacrificing yourself and outing the wolf pack for the betterment of the village? Even if you say yes, how can we know you are telling the truth or that you won't have a change of heart later if the wolves do add you to their numbers?

 

[ravenvii]

The gallows creaked as the villagers struggled to take down -aggie-'s body. The day's voting was done immediately upon discovering -aggie-'s body, which was quickly forgotten as the villagers discussed amongst themselves.

When King Mook Mook claimed to be the Seer, despite doubt and fear, the villagers voted for the lynching of chrmjenkins whom King Mook Mook declared to be a Goth, desperate to join the ranks of the immortal.

Only then did the villagers remember -aggie's body.

As chrmjenkins was dragged up the stairs towards the rope that once held -aggie-'s body, and iBookG4user before him, the gallows creaked as the body of -aggie- was carried down the opposing stairs.

"Know that you die for the good for the village. God bless you." Rodimus Prime said, his voice bordering on sarcasm towards the end, as he pulled the lever.

chrmjenkins dropped. And became still, swaying in the wind just as -aggie- was just moments ago.

chrmjenkins is a villager. 17 now remain. It is now NIGHT. Specials, do your magic. Deadline is midnight Monday.

 

[appleguy123]

Remember people, the postings don't reveal that Chris was the goth. He already confessed, so we can still be sure that he was the goth.
Chris, sorry that we couldn't take you up on your offer, but have you seen "Peter and the Wolf?" The wolf( goth in this case) eats Peter at the end.

 

[SilentPanda]

Of what is your avatar?

Buffy!

 

[184550]

Ok, so this is where we stand:

Remaining Players:

1) Rodimus Prime
2) NathanMuir
3) ucfgrad93
4) Melrose
5) philbeeney
6) willbro
7) Mexbearpig
8) abijnk
9) King Mook Mook
10) appleguy123
11) jav5464
12) iBlue
13) Don't panic
14) renewed
15) mscriv
16) SilentPanda
17) stonyc

And if we believe that the players who have exposed their roles thus far, we are left with:

Werewolf Hunter
Vampire Hunter
Seer
Undertaker
Sorcerer

Werewolf
Werewolf
Werewolf (possibly)
Vampire
Goth
Goth

EDIT:

Assuming the wolves haven't killed off, and we didn't lynch, anyone with a role that they didn't have a chance to tell us about.

 

[lbro]

Here's the dilemma we find ourselves in, according to the rules the the Alpha werewolf can use the infection ability at any time during the game. It's not a night time special ability, so KMM could already be infected if the wolf pack decided to act quickly after he revealed his role. This would at least give them one scan opportunity even if we decide to lynch him the next day. Hmmm....???

So, the question is, would the wolves risk wasting the infection knowing that we could lynch KMM right away? Is the infection worth losing just to take out the seer?

King Mook Mook, how do you propose that we maintain any trust in you at this point? Are you dedicated to being a "good guy" until the end? Would you tell us if you were infected thereby sacrificing yourself and outing the wolf pack for the betterment of the village? Even if you say yes, how can we know you are telling the truth or that you won't have a change of heart later if the wolves do add you to their numbers?

I have a problem with that. I don't think that that would be within spirit of the game because if that would be allowed none of the baddies could trust each other.

For example: Player X is a vampire and Player Y is a goth. Once they find each other, Player Y (doesn't like baddies) reveals their roles to the villagers so that the villagers can kill them.

I think its different if a werewolf reveals a vampires role (Rodimus Prime's situation) since they aren't on the same side.

 

[philbeeney]

Would you tell us if you were infected thereby sacrificing yourself and outing the wolf pack for the betterment of the village?

I have a problem with that. I don't think that that would be within spirit of the game because if that would be allowed none of the baddies could trust each other.

For example: Player X is a vampire and Player Y is a goth. Once they find each other, Player Y (doesn't like baddies) reveals their roles to the villagers so that the villagers can kill them.

I think its different if a werewolf reveals a vampires role (Rodimus Prime's situation) since they aren't on the same side.

I agree with willbro. If KMM became infected, he moves to the dark side and becomes a bad guy, plain and simple. He doesn't have to let anybody know that he's been infected. It's up to the villagers to take the risk of whether he's been infected or we just lynch him to make sure he can't screw us over.

 

[abijnk]

I agree with willbro. If KMM became infected, he moves to the dark side and becomes a bad guy, plain and simple. He doesn't have to let anybody know that he's been infected. It's up to the villagers to take the risk of whether he's been infected or we just lynch him to make sure he can't screw us over.

This is a psychological game. Part of pysochological games is trust. Having a traitor (on either side) is well within the spirit of the game. It is a mind trip, plain and simple, and it can go both ways. For example, the seer could scan a villager and then lead a charge against then to help out the ww's. You can't force people to play a role a certain way.

 

[mscriv]

I understand your point willbro, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. As I stated above, chrmjenkin's plan could be considered, as you say, not "in the spirit of the game" because the role and purpose of the goth is to become a vampire and choosing to betray that is going against the designed nature of that role. However, the werewolf infection could be interpreted in a different light. I mean haven't you seen enough horror movies to know that sometimes people who are turned by evil creatures of the night are done so against their will and that even after being turned they strive to serve the greater good.

This could bring about some careful consideration in how the infection ability is used which is why I questioned ravenvii about the nature of the behind the scenes process between the goth and vampire. By the way we still don't have an answer? Once an infection occurs are PM's automatically sent out to all wolfs or vamps? I ask this because I think it's important for all players to know. For example, if the person infected is just told that they are infected then the original werewolves could still protect themselves by limiting the new wolf's knowledge of what their plans are and they could even only reveal one other wolf's identity thereby still keeping a measure of protection for themselves. However, if once an infection or vamp/goth scan occurs all parties are made aware of each other then simply outing your new team does seem rather unfair. In fact, this reason is why we've not ever used the priest/shaman role because the person healed would simply out their former evil teammates.

I don't know, the more I play this game the more I see nuances that I didn't think about before. Are we playing a rigid game where roles are clearly defined and players are not allowed to step outside of their roles in any way? Are baddies always evil and good guys are always good? The rules don't specify and based on posts that have already been made there is some difference of opinion regarding the ethics behind the roles. I would like for ravenvii to weigh in since he's the storyteller and rule maker.

 

[abijnk]

I'm just saying this: the more the rules box players into a certain behavior the less fun the game gets. I, for one, won't continue to play if the game gets to the point where my play is absolutely restricted.

I think people are balking when they see stuff they wouldn't personally do, but that is the whole point. Everybody sees the situations differently, and it's about the dynamic that takes place within those interpretations.

Try to get past what is ethical and what isn't. I mean, for christ's sake we had people who were absolutely stunned that anyone would lie in this game at the beginning. Imagine if that had been written into the rules...

 

[lbro]

I understand your point willbro, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. As I stated above, chrmjenkin's plan could be considered, as you say, not "in the spirit of the game" because the role and purpose of the goth is to become a vampire and choosing to betray that is going against the designed nature of that role. However, the werewolf infection could be interpreted in a different light. I mean haven't you seen enough horror movies to know that sometimes people who are turned by evil creatures of the night are done so against their will and that even after being turned they strive to serve the greater good.

I think it takes the fun out of the game for me. The game could end even before it started if just one werewolf in the beginning wants to be good and reveals the other's roles..

 

[philbeeney]

I understand your point willbro, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. As I stated above, chrmjenkin's plan could be considered, as you say, not "in the spirit of the game" because the role and purpose of the goth is to become a vampire and choosing to betray that is going against the designed nature of that role. However, the werewolf infection could be interpreted in a different light. I mean haven't you seen enough horror movies to know that sometimes people who are turned by evil creatures of the night are done so against their will and that even after being turned they strive to serve the greater good.

This could bring about some careful consideration in how the infection ability is used which is why I questioned ravenvii about the nature of the behind the scenes process between the goth and vampire. By the way we still don't have an answer? Once an infection occurs are PM's automatically sent out to all wolfs or vamps? I ask this because I think it's important for all players to know. For example, if the person infected is just told that they are infected then the original werewolves could still protect themselves by limiting the new wolf's knowledge of what their plans are and they could even only reveal one other wolf's identity thereby still keeping a measure of protection for themselves. However, if once an infection or vamp/goth scan occurs all parties are made aware of each other then simply outing your new team does seem rather unfair. In fact, this reason is why we've not ever used the priest/shaman role because the person healed would simply out their former evil teammates.

I don't know, the more I play this game the more I see nuances that I didn't think about before. Are we playing a rigid game where roles are clearly defined and players are not allowed to step outside of their roles in any way? Are baddies always evil and good guys are always good? The rules don't specify and based on posts that have already been made there is some difference of opinion regarding the ethics behind the roles. I would like for ravenvii to weigh in since he's the storyteller and rule maker.

I don't see why anybody should be ethical. You can lie or tell the truth and it's up to the rest of the villagers to decide whether any particular person is telling the truth or not. As abinjk stated, it's a psychological game.

Although the idea of a double agent Seer is pretty cool (depending on your perspective of course).

 

[ravenvii]

mscriv, to answer your question, once a infection occurs, I inform the infected that he has been infected, and give him the names of all the living wolves. As for the vampires, it is the same - once a goth or vampire discovers the other, I inform the discovered that he has been converted (or that he has found the goth, and the goth is now a vampire), and give him the name of the discoverer. The second goth's identity is kept secret until the goth discovers either of the active vampires.

As for ethics, both abijnk and willbro are correct. In other words, I've always envisioned this as a open game. Players are allowed to play as they wish.

However, there are no way for the wolves to retaliate within the current rules (other than pushing for a lynching of course, which isn't very effective). So in a sense that would be against the spirit of the game and ruin it for others.

So either we leave it be, and trust each other not to ruin the game, or we could discuss additional rules to prevent that from happening (and retaliate against those who betray their sides). Make a stronger deterrence in other words.

I have only added the confidential communication rule because of the potential of things getting *really* ugly (PMs are private messages, after all). No one has pushed that boundary yet, but I wanted to make sure that doesn't happen.

 

[abijnk]

I think it takes the fun out of the game for me. The game could end even before it started if just one werewolf in the beginning wants to be good and reveals the other's roles..

Only if you have blind faith and choose to believe them straight away.

The rules have already been altered in such a way that a single person cannot prove their role or anyone elses role without participation from other players (be it active or passive, and you are welcome for that ). It stands to reason that I could start the game by stating that I am a werewolf and the other werewolf is willbro. Doesn't mean it is true, and it doesn't mean anyone will believe me.

I have only added the confidential communication rule because of the potential of things getting *really* ugly (PMs are private messages, after all). No one has pushed that boundary yet, but I wanted to make sure that doesn't happen.

I think by this point everyone knows where that rule came from, and I really don't like the implications the bolded statement makes. It should be clear that I did not post a PM without express permission from the parties involved, those being myself and chrmjenkins.

As for your statement regarding ethics, it is important to remember that ethics "IRL" and game ethics are two separate things altogether. I guarantee no one participating in the threads is a murder or a habitual liar, but they sure do a good job of it in here.

 

[lbro]

Only if you have blind faith and choose to believe them straight away.

The rules have already been altered in such a way that a single person cannot prove their role or anyone elses role without participation from other players (be it active or passive, and you are welcome for that ). It stands to reason that I could start the game by stating that I am a werewolf and the other werewolf is willbro. Doesn't mean it is true, and it doesn't mean anyone will believe me.

The first vote isn't worth much anyway so I think everyone would vote for them. Either way it would end the game really quickly. (too quickly)