Since the wolves don't scan/protect anyone they would never gain the spy. The Vampires would be able to gain the spy, however, and that might be the boost that they need to actually win a game.
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[WW] Bloodlust GAME OVER - WEREWOLVES WIN
- Thread starter ravenvii
- Start date
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Since the wolves don't scan/protect anyone they would never gain the spy. The Vampires would be able to gain the spy, however, and that might be the boost that they need to actually win a game.
Ah, I see, I was under the impression that we changed it from them being scanned to them scanning someone! So then they could be a multitude of characters, and be more balanced. Well, perhaps that could be a change, so that they scan specials? And then also, if they were scanned by a Seer, the Seer would know who they are, again, being more balanced, and allowing them to be killed.
Them being scanned/protected would be the best way to balance them, in my opinion. As having 5 wolves would be a bit much!
lol, yeah that would be untenable!
That's why I suggest we have a Good Spy (that could be a werewolf hunter, a vampire hunter, seer, sorcerer etc.), and a Bad Spy (that could be a werewolf, vampire, goth, etc.) so we don't have a situation with five werewolves!
lol, yeah that would be untenable!
That's why I suggest we have a Good Spy (that could be a werewolf hunter, a vampire hunter, seer, sorcerer etc.), and a Bad Spy (that could be a werewolf, vampire, goth, etc.) so we don't have a situation with five werewolves!
I think, regardless, the spy should have to be scanned, rather than them scanning. As that way they wouldn't be a werewolf regardless, because there are a maximum of 4 werewolves right now, so if they can scan then there would be a possibility of a fifth. I'm ambivalent about having two spies.
It'll be interesting to see what Ravenvii's thoughts are.
What if the spies powers were only a one time use? They would last only one day and after that the player would return to normal, or die.
Ah, I see what you mean now! Mmm, I think I agree, having five werewolves would be ridiculous, and untenable, we don't want to give the baddies an advantage.
Agreed! What will the Ravenvii think? If in doubt ask yourself: WWRD (What would Ravenvii do?)
Yes yes, dispense with the pleasantries; it's good to see you and all. Now, get back to cooking MOAR BRAINS!!!
I like that idea, but only if a villager on the Neighbourhood Watch can still PM his fellows after his infection. Sounds awesome.
Agreed! I don't think it would be nearly as good, nor effective, if the infected village couldn't PM their fellow neighbourhood watchers after infection, as then the other two would know that their previous member had been infected and could then proceed to easily kill them.
This game sounds so good with these changes that are being proposed, sounds to be so much more fun!
Okay some more perpective on the one spy idea.
Consider the spy like a troll on the forums. He really isn't for or against anyone. He just wants to manipulate people into doing bad things.
For example: if the spy has the seer's powers for a night and he finds a werewolf, he can lie to the villagers and say that he is the seer and take out some werewolves. This is good for him because he has the trust of the villagers and they won't lynch him. I also don't think that the werewolves should be able to eat the spy(adds to the dynamic of trickery of the villagers).
To make this even more interesting, if the villagers get the spy, they can then have a second lynching before it is night. However, they may accidentally lynch their real seer or vampire hunter by mistake.
There could even be 2 neutral spies who CAN pm each other to cause even more trouble.
Thoughts?
Consider the spy like a troll on the forums. He really isn't for or against anyone. He just wants to manipulate people into doing bad things.
For example: if the spy has the seer's powers for a night and he finds a werewolf, he can lie to the villagers and say that he is the seer and take out some werewolves. This is good for him because he has the trust of the villagers and they won't lynch him. I also don't think that the werewolves should be able to eat the spy(adds to the dynamic of trickery of the villagers).
To make this even more interesting, if the villagers get the spy, they can then have a second lynching before it is night. However, they may accidentally lynch their real seer or vampire hunter by mistake.
There could even be 2 neutral spies who CAN pm each other to cause even more trouble.
Thoughts?
I am not a fan of the neiborhood watch idea because those villagers could easily hold a majority later on and make it impossible for the WW or vamps to win. I honestly do not like the stool pigion or traitor either. Traitor would be nothing more than a fancy WW.
stool pigeon I just do not see working very well honestly.
stool pigeon I just do not see working very well honestly.
I'm not sure about this, that might be overcomplicating the spy role. Personally I think that the spy should be left at copying the ability of the special who scans or protects them. If we went with your idea the spy role would just seem a bit random and like you're having another special role to have another special role.
I agree, the neighborhood watch is not a great idea as it stands right now because they could hold a majority later. Although, if we changed it so that there is a possibility that a member in the neighborhood watch could be a werewolf or vampire masquerading as a villager, it might be workable.
So far we have 17 players.
1. Rodimus Prime
2. NathanMuir
3. -aggie-
4. iBookG4user
5. ucfgrad93
6. Melrose
7. philbeeney
8. willbro
9. Mexbearpig
10. abijnk
11. chrmjenkins
12. King Mook Mook
13. appleguy123
14. jav6454
15. iBlue
16. Don't Panic
17. Renewed
18. mscriv
19.
20.
1. Rodimus Prime
2. NathanMuir
3. -aggie-
4. iBookG4user
5. ucfgrad93
6. Melrose
7. philbeeney
8. willbro
9. Mexbearpig
10. abijnk
11. chrmjenkins
12. King Mook Mook
13. appleguy123
14. jav6454
15. iBlue
16. Don't Panic
17. Renewed
18. mscriv
19.
20.
Added my comments/suggestions/questions in red
Welcome to the fifth installment of the Werewolves Game!
First of all, I just want to say that this game is recommended for players who already played a previous game, or feel that she/he understands how the game plays out fairly well. The rules could get a bit overwhelming if you don't understand the underlying game (which is very simple actually, but might be difficult to grasp if you haven't played before).
The game will begin next Saturday, September 4. Sign-ups are limited to 20 players.
The rules will be largely based on the previous game. There are no new roles or new rules, only tweaks to existing ones. To save time for those familiar with the rules already, here's the tweaks:
Definite tweaks:
a) A tweak to the roles of the Hunters in here the Werewolf Hunter can only protect against werewolf attacks, the Vampire Hunter can only protect against Vampire attacks.
b) The Werewolf Hunter's protection will extend to the daytime in case of a Kamikaze Werewolf attack during a lynching, OR THE INFECTION BY THE ALPHA WOLF.
c) Stated explicitly that infections are effective against all specials EXCEPT the Werewolf Hunter, UNLESS THE WW HUNTER ALREADY USED HIS IMMUNITY TO DEFEND FROM A DIRECT WW ATTACK.
Proposed changes/changes for discussion: Those are marked in BOLD in the rules section. I'm also listing them here for easy reference.
a) Should the specials, after being infected, retain their powers? YES
b) Should we make it easier for the Vampire and Goth to find each other? YES My proposal is to reveal to the Vampire and Goth each other's scans the night prior, so they know who not to scan. I LIKE MORE THE IDEA FLOATED IN THE PREVIOUS THREAD TO HAVE 3 INACTIVE VAMPS TO BEGIN WITH. THEY ARE EQUALS AND ALL SCAN, BUT ONLY TWO OF THEM WILL BE ACTIVE (FIRST PM TO IDENTIFY ANOTHER VAMP COUNTS). WHEN THEY ARE ACTIVE THEY ARE NOTIFIED AND THE THIRD EITHER BECOMES A NORMAL VILLAGER OR BECOMES A ROGUE VAMP, WITH THE ABILITY TO SCAN FOR VAMPS BUT ON THE SIDE OF THE VILLAGERS. IN THIS CASE HE IS IMMUNE TO WW ATTACK BUT NOT TO THE ACTIVE VAMP ATTACK.
THIS WAY EVEN IF ONE OF THE VAMPS IS RANDOMLY KILLED EARLY ON, WE STILL CAN GET ACTIVE VAMPS IN THE GAME.
c) Should we keep the Priest (now called Sorcerer because I came up with a new role that is better-suited to the Priest name. That'll come in another game, however). FINE
The framework will be the same as the previous advanced games. As a reference, here's links to the previous advanced games:
Werewolves in MRville!
Werewolves Returns to MRville!
[url=https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/989509/]MRville 4: Evil Never Dies
GAME RULES:
THE GOOD GUYS:
The Werewolf Hunter: The Werewolf Hunter can pick a player to protect every night against werewolf AND VAMPIRES attacks. However, the hunter cannot protect the same player two nights in a row, and cannot protect him/herself. The protection does extend into the daytime, meaning the Hunter can protect a villager from a Kamikaze Werewolf attack OR FROM AN ALPHA WOLF INFECTION. S/he also has an additional ability to instantly kill any player of his choosing. This ability can only be used once during the game, and is only effective against werewolves or villagers. An attack on a vampire will fail, and the Hunter cannot use the ability again, so choose wisely! Immune to one werewolf attack (TO KILL OR TO INFECT). Can be killed OR TURNED INTO A WW if attacked again.
The Vampire Hunter: Same as the Werewolf Hunter, HE CAN PROTECT OTHER PLAYERS AGAINST VAMPIRE AND WEREWOLVES ATTACKS BUT HIS insta-kill is effective against only vampires and villagers, not werewolves, and he is immune to one vampire attack. DOES HIS PROTECTION OF OTHER PLAYERS EXTEND IN THE DAY AGAINST WW KAMIKAZE AND INFECTION ATTACK? I SAY YES: IN PROTECTION MODE, BOTH HUNTERS ACT AS BODY GUARDS AND SAVE THEIR PROTEGEE AGAINST ALL EVIL FOR THE DAY. IT'S ONLY WHEN THEY ARE IN HUNTER MODE THAT THEIR POWERS ARE SPECIFIC TO THE PREY
Seer: Seer can find the true role of any ALIVE player.
Undertaker: Same as the Seer, except for DEAD players.
Sorcerer: One-time power (instant) to resurrect any player. SHOULD WE KEEP THIS ROLE?
Villagers: Same as before.
THE BAD GUYS:
The Werewolves: Werewolves can PM each other. They pick one villager to eat per night. There are three kinds of werewolves;
a) The Alpha Werewolf) can at any time during the game, pick one villager to infect. This will convert the villager into a normal werewolf (no special abilities) and join the werewolves' team. The infection is effective against specials such as the Seer and the Undertaker. (SHOULD THEY KEEP THEIR POWERS AFTER BEING INFECTED?) The infection is not effective against the Werewolf Hunter, however.
b) The Kamikaze Werewolf has the ability to pick any one villager to kill during his lynching. In other words, if he is voted to be hanged, he will take one villager with him (UNLESS THAT VILLAGER IS STILL UNDER PROTECTION FROM ONE OF THE HUNTERS.)
c) The normal Werewolf has no powers. There will be one normal Werewolf, plus a second one if an infection by the Alpha Werewolf occurs.
Vampire: There will be one vampire. At first, he is a regular villager for all intents and purposes. The only thing he can do is pick a player to scan each night in the hopes of discovering a willing victim, the Goth. Once the vampire discovers the Goth, the Goth will convert into a vampire, and they will, as a team, pick from whom to drink blood. Each night, I will reveal to the Vampire the Goth's scan the night prior, to encourage a quicker activation of the Vampires. I DON'T LIKE THIS MAINLY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT STORY-WISE: HOW CAN THE VAMP KNOW WHAT THE GOTH SCANNED? I PROPOSED TO START WITH 3 INACTIVE VAMPS OF WHICH ONLY TWO CAN BE ACTIVATED. IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE BALANCE OF POWERS MUCH (STILL TWO VAMPS). THEY HAVE MORE CHANCE TO GET ACTIVATED EARLIER AND LESS CHANCE THAT ELIMINATING ONE EARLY PREVENTS ACTIVATION. THIS IS COUNTER-BALANCED BY THE SEER-LIGHT POWERS OF THE ROGUE VAMPIRE
Goth: Same as the vampire, scans players to find the vampire. Once the Goth finds the vampire, he/she will convert into a vampire. Will take the reigns if the original vampire dies. Similar to the Vampire, I will reveal to the Goth the Vampire's prior night scans each night. SEE ABOVE, FOR THE 2/3 VAMPS
Note that the vampire(s) are NOT on the werewolves' side, so they will NOT know who the werewolves are, nor will the werewolves know who the vampire(s) is/are. Also, the werewolves and the vampires can NOT kill each other (if one group picks a member of the other group to kill, nothing will happen that night, similar to the result if the player was protected by a hunter). This does not apply to the Goth until s/he has been converted. In other words, the only way for the werewolves and the vampires to kill each other is to get the villagers to do it.
Miscellaneous:
a) Villagers can NOT PM each other.
b) Werewolves CAN PM each other and Vampires CAN PM each other.
c) Players can edit their posts during the game is in progress, however if you edit your post, you MUST give an explanation of why/what you edited.
d) (a.k.a. the jav6454 rule (by the way of -aggie-)
e) Voting for lynching will close as soon as majority is reached.
f) Voting can only take place in the daytime. Any votes made during the night will not be counted.
g) For clarity, when you vote, bold the name of the player you're voting for. This alleviates confusion and makes it easier for me to count the votes. You can also play with this - "I really like Bob, he's a great guy" counts as a vote for Bob You can jokingly vote by not bolding the name - it will not be counted.
h) You can retract and change your vote at any time up to the close of the vote.
i) The game will begin at DAYTIME.
j) There will be a TIME LIMIT for Specials to send in their PMs. The time limit will be 24 hours after the posting of the lynching (NOT after the voting closes) on weekdays, and 48 hours if any of the 24 hours falls on Saturday or Sunday. There is NO time limit for the lynching vote. HOWEVER, IF THE GAME STALLS EXCESSIVELY (AT MY DISCRETION), I WILL GIVE A DEADLINE FOR REACHING A CONSENSUS. IF NO CONSENSUS IS REACHED, THE PLAYER(S) WITH THE RELATIVE MAJORITY OF VOTES WILL ALL BE LYNCHED
k) This question has came up in the discussion, so here is the turn order during the night:
Seer and Undertaker scans;
Hunters protect;
Vampire/Goth scans (or attacks);
Werewolves attacks.
If the vampires and werewolves pick the same player to kill, then only one person will die that night.
I say that the WW Hunter protects only against WW attacks. That is it. Infections is something else and should not be gimped. Also like before, the WW Hunter is vulnerable vs the vampire attack. I also agree the protection may go on to day against the Kamikazee wolf.
Same deal with the Vamp Hunter. Protects only against vampires and is immune only to vampire attack. Also this hunter CAN be infected by the WWs.
That is why they have their respective identifiers.
I agree on the 3 vampires out scanning. However I believe that if two vampires find each other, the other one looses his powers and becomes nothing but a simple villager.
Same deal with the Vamp Hunter. Protects only against vampires and is immune only to vampire attack. Also this hunter CAN be infected by the WWs.
That is why they have their respective identifiers.
I agree on the 3 vampires out scanning. However I believe that if two vampires find each other, the other one looses his powers and becomes nothing but a simple villager.
Guys, while it's awesome that you are all discussing ideas for roles, I did say that there will be no new roles this game - I wanted to focus on solidifying the current rules and fixing balancing issues before adding anything. The past couple of games the players had questions on the mechanics of the game, which meant it wasn't as clear in the rules as it should be (well that or they didn't read the rules ). I want to rectify that before adding in more complexity and hence more confusion.
). I want to rectify that before adding in more complexity and hence more confusion.
Guys, while it's awesome that you are all discussing ideas for roles, I did say that there will be no new roles this game - I wanted to focus on solidifying the current rules and fixing balancing issues before adding anything. The past couple of games the players had questions on the mechanics of the game, which meant it wasn't as clear in the rules as it should be (well that or they didn't read the rules
Thanks. I didnt want to have to play the n00b card, once again.
Okay, I'll play again since I know you all want me to do so.
In other words... I'M IN!
I think we need a poll.
I think we need a poll.
That's it mister. Don't worry about needing to rush back from your vacation to play in this game. You've just earned my first vote.
Just kidding, I'll give you a chance, but don't slip or I'll call you out just like I did last time.
Interesting. In at the same time. There will be no collusion whatsoever, right?
I think we all know better...
I still would like this question answered please:
I think this bear repeating too:
Maybe we reduce it to two wolves with one infect, 1 vamp, and 2 goths. Then it's a possibility of 6 baddies total to 14 villagers and the vamps and wolves are on equal footing against each other 3 vs. 3, you know like a basketball tournament at the park.
I agree with much of what Don't panic said above. However, I think we may need to consolidate the hunter roles as I suggested here:
Thoughts?
my indication above are all rule clarifications in terms of how they are written and how they were played. the only exception is with the 3 vs 2 vamps and in giving the third vamp a role with the villagers, to balance out the increased chance that the power is active. i think this is a better solution that the one originally proposed by ravenvii to speed up vamp recognition. Also, the fact the uncertainty of the vamp alignment at the beginning gives them an interesting twist.
as far as the hunters, in the past two games, my understanding is that the vamp hunter has been protecting players and that that protection has been effective also against the WW (since there was no active vamp). If not why all the talk about the hunters alternating to protect key players (like the seer?) if the vamp hunter cannot protect against the WW, than it turns into a very limited role, and in any case it becomes quite easy for the ww to kill a designated player as they just have to attack it twice in a row to guarantee his/her death.
as far as the hunters, in the past two games, my understanding is that the vamp hunter has been protecting players and that that protection has been effective also against the WW (since there was no active vamp). If not why all the talk about the hunters alternating to protect key players (like the seer?) if the vamp hunter cannot protect against the WW, than it turns into a very limited role, and in any case it becomes quite easy for the ww to kill a designated player as they just have to attack it twice in a row to guarantee his/her death.
That's it mister. Don't worry about needing to rush back from your vacation to play in this game. You've just earned my first vote.
Just kidding, I'll give you a chance, but don't slip or I'll call you out just like I did last time.
I still would like this question answered please:
Thoughts?
This is not a vacation (for me). This is my wife dragging me to my mother-in-laws. Besides the possibility of no internet, this could be more than a horrible time.
I had wondered the same thing about if all the villagers died. Since no one had brought it up, I figured it was pretty improbable. If it does happen, I think you just call it a draw.
mscriv, i think the scenarios you posted are not final, as no one group has yet the mathematical certainty of victory, for one group to win, it has to eliminate everyone else. so if only ww and vamp remain, whoever has the majority wins because they will lynch the opponents away. if they are equal numbers, then it is a tie.
if villagers are still in the picture, then it depends on who can sway whose vote and on remaining specials.
I would be fine with both hunters being identical, but i do like them having some specificity to their powers, it adds flavor to the story. i think it should be only in their immunity and in who they can insta-kill, not in who they guard against. when they guard someone, this someone is protected against any kind of attack.
to me the easiest way to decide what a character/power can do is to visualize how it would work within the story:
to me the Hunter is a highly trained bodyguard who protects his mark. when the protegee come under attack, he steps in and chases the attacker away. the protegee doesn't even know they are under attack (but the hunter knows and should be notified that the protection was tested during the night). the protection extends until a new 'job' is assigned to the hunter the next night, and works against every assault by any ill-intended subject (including the other hunter insta-kill, kamikaze wolf and infecting alpha wolf: yes, he's just that good).
On top of his exceptional guarding prerogatives, the hunter is also equipped with one special bolt, especially made for his crossbow: a silver bolt for the ww hunter and a garlic-coated bolt for the vamp hunter. when they use these, a villager would be killed instantly by either, a wolfy by the silver one and a vamp by the garlic-coated one, but the garlic coated one is not sufficient to kill the wolf (same with the silver bolt and the vamp). In addition each hunter has a special one-use talisman/potion to spurn a direct attack by his nemesis, but when he uses is, he is from then on exposed.
if villagers are still in the picture, then it depends on who can sway whose vote and on remaining specials.
I would be fine with both hunters being identical, but i do like them having some specificity to their powers, it adds flavor to the story. i think it should be only in their immunity and in who they can insta-kill, not in who they guard against. when they guard someone, this someone is protected against any kind of attack.
to me the easiest way to decide what a character/power can do is to visualize how it would work within the story:
to me the Hunter is a highly trained bodyguard who protects his mark. when the protegee come under attack, he steps in and chases the attacker away. the protegee doesn't even know they are under attack (but the hunter knows and should be notified that the protection was tested during the night). the protection extends until a new 'job' is assigned to the hunter the next night, and works against every assault by any ill-intended subject (including the other hunter insta-kill, kamikaze wolf and infecting alpha wolf: yes, he's just that good).
On top of his exceptional guarding prerogatives, the hunter is also equipped with one special bolt, especially made for his crossbow: a silver bolt for the ww hunter and a garlic-coated bolt for the vamp hunter. when they use these, a villager would be killed instantly by either, a wolfy by the silver one and a vamp by the garlic-coated one, but the garlic coated one is not sufficient to kill the wolf (same with the silver bolt and the vamp). In addition each hunter has a special one-use talisman/potion to spurn a direct attack by his nemesis, but when he uses is, he is from then on exposed.