[WW] MRville VI: GAME OVER - VILLAGERS WIN

[iBlue]

Actually I'm thinking either allowing the undertaker and seer PM each other, or simply eliminating the undertaker and replacing him with another seer.

I'm not sure.

I think both roles serve a useful purpose individually.
As for them (seer and undertaker or two seers) communicating, one good thing about having them separate and unknown to the other is that if one gets infected the other isn't drinking from a poisoned well or at risk of dying.

In a game with more participants I figure another Seer working alone would be a good addition without handing over too much power.



BTW, elected roles will only lead to fighting and game drags. I hope they don't go in. Tommy Gun though, that's awesome!

This prayer thing is an interesting idea. It would be neat if it could be used for other things.
"I pray to the Gods to give xxx immunity"
Maybe it could be based on a point system. Every night the village gains a point. And prayers could use a certain number of points based on their potency.
1 point for an identity reveal
2 points for immunity
4 points for an insta-kill.

I also think that the vampire hunter shouldn't be chosen until the Vampires are activated. It's pretty dumb to have a hunter for something that doesn't exist.

I definitely think the prayer idea could be used in a lot of really brilliant ways, such as those you mentioned. Don't know about a points system though. The prayer should just be a good one for the time at hand so the required amount of people (4 or so) can get behind the prayer.

I don't agree about the Vampire Hunter.

But you couldn't protect us from Vampires when the time came.

Well, to be fair she was dead. Even when Buffy has taken her shot she can still protect nightly. Sure it's usually a crapshoot but not always.

 

[Don't panic]

another way to use the prayer is that the priest has to 'convert' players (conversion is voluntary) and that he can only convert one per day. when he reaches 3 he can set up a ritual and ask the question. the next day he can start conversion again and when he gets 3 more he can set up another ritual.
people can of course leave the church if they think the priest has been infected or for whatever reason.
you could also have that different rituals require different amount of people to perform. for example with 3 you get a question answered (yes/no) or a protection, at 4 a smithing, at 5 a resurrection.

 

[abijnk]

But you couldn't protect us from Vampires when the time came.

Because I was dead...

 

[ravenvii]

another way to use the prayer is that the priest has to 'convert' players (conversion is voluntary) and that he can only convert one per day. when he reaches 3 he can set up a ritual and ask the question. the next day he can start conversion again and when he gets 3 more he can set up another ritual.
people can of course leave the church if they think the priest has been infected or for whatever reason.
you could also have that different rituals require different amount of people to perform. for example with 3 you get a question answered (yes/no) or a protection, at 4 a smithing, at 5 a resurrection.

Great idea. However, what if the werewolves just kill off the converted villagers each time, preventing the priest from doing anything? Anything to counter that play?

 

[Don't panic]

Great idea. However, what if the werewolves just kill off the converted villagers each time, preventing the priest from doing anything? Anything to counter that play?

now that you mention it, they probably would just kill the priest.
but isn't it a problem with the public priest/followers in general? or should be the recruitment done in the shadows and the priest 'comes out' only to perform the ritual?
also, the answer to the question should be via PM to the priest, so it always remains the chance that he is lying

 

[appleguy123]

Because I was dead...

I know, that's why one of the living villagers should be made the hunter when vampires are activated.

 

[ravenvii]

now that you mention it, they probably would just kill the priest.
but isn't it a problem with the public priest/followers in general? or should be the recruitment done in the shadows and the priest 'comes out' only to perform the ritual?
also, the answer to the question should be via PM to the priest, so it always remains the chance that he is lying

That is why I am going to make the priest immune to werewolf attack until the prayer was performed. There would be a final day for the priest to perform before the immunity wears off. The priest must perform the prayer by the, say, third day, or the immunity will wear off, and he'll be at the mercy of the baddies.

 

[Don't panic]

That is why I am going to make the priest immune to werewolf attack until the prayer was performed. There would be a final day for the priest to perform before the immunity wears off. The priest must perform the prayer by the, say, third day, or the immunity will wear off, and he'll be at the mercy of the baddies.

i didn't see that part (against vamps attacks too? infection?) so if he doesn't perform the prayer he is invulnerable and absolutely trustworthy?

 

[abijnk]

I know, that's why one of the living villagers should be made the hunter when vampires are activated.

point = missed

Honestly, it's not even worth trying to explain...

 

[ravenvii]

i didn't see that part (against vamps attacks too? infection?) so if he doesn't perform the prayer he is invulnerable and absolutely trustworthy?

It wasn't in the OP, so you didn't miss anything.

Basically, yeah. Except for trustworthy - I won't tell the village "he's the priest!" so he can very well be hanged. And it's for a limited time, not the whole game (so he couldn't just not pray and be invulnerable for the whole game).

 

[jav6454]

It wasn't in the OP, so you didn't miss anything.

Basically, yeah. Except for trustworthy - I won't tell the village "he's the priest!" so he can very well be hanged. And it's for a limited time, not the whole game (so he couldn't just not pray and be invulnerable for the whole game).

What about the Priest trying to rally villagers Day 1 to find out a wolf (any wolf). That wouldn't be fair to those players. This must be discussed. I can't agree with the Priest role unless there are some safeguards. Also, a failure rate should be given to the prayer. Everything in the game has a failure rate (infection, kill-shot, immunity), and it is only fair this ability can also fail.

 

[Don't panic]

What about the Priest trying to rally villagers Day 1 to find out a wolf (any wolf). That wouldn't be fair to those players. This must be discussed. I can't agree with the Priest role unless there are some safeguards. Also, a failure rate should be given to the prayer. Everything in the game has a failure rate (infection, kill-shot, immunity), and it is only fair this ability can also fail.

i am not sure i follow. as it is described (a yes/no question) the prayer would be like a scan. so if the prayer (e.g. "is don't panic a wolf?")is performed on day 1, the 'failure rate would be, using last game as an example, 18/20. You can word the question in cleverer ways, but they are never going to unfailingly smoke out a wolf.

Going back on the vamps, can someone explain how is the blood-drinking, power-stealing vamp not overpowered? if i understand right, before he gets activated he is basically a seer who can find other people identity AND use their powers (this is already much better than the seers). After he gets activated, he can kill people, talk to his buddies and he knows who many of the other player really are. it would b a slaughter.
i still think that the best way to improve the vamps without overdoing it is making all 3 of them real vamps, with ww immunity. this would ensure that vamps are almost certainly activated and strongly reduces the 'ethical dilemma' of the goth that some think could become a problem.

 

[jav6454]

i am not sure i follow. as it is described (a yes/no question) the prayer would be like a scan. so if the prayer (e.g. "is don't panic a wolf?")is performed on day 1, the 'failure rate would be, using last game as an example, 18/20. You can word the question in cleverer ways, but they are never going to unfailingly smoke out a wolf.

All you really need to ask is, "Who is the Alpha wolf?"

There ya go... Unfair on any of the first 3 Days.

 

[iBlue]

All you really need to ask is, "Who is the Alpha wolf?"

There ya go... Unfair on any of the first 3 Days.

You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding about what "YES or NO question" means.

 

[-aggie-]

You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding about what "YES or NO question" means.

Seriously.

 

[jav6454]

You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding about what "YES or NO question" means.

Yet, the OP mentions nothing of Yes/No when I read it; unless it changed recently.

 

[-aggie-]

Yet, the OP mentions nothing of Yes/No when I read it; unless it changed recently.

You need to read it again then.

Priest: Can pray to the Gods for answers to any question. Requires 3 villagers to agree to participate in the ritual. Can ask the gods any yes/no question. One-time ability. This is all done in the open (not via PM).

 

[iBookG4user]

Yet, the OP mentions nothing of Yes/No when I read it; unless it changed recently.

The OP hasn't been edited in 3 days, yet it still mentions that it has to be a Yes/No question.

 

[iBlue]

Yet, the OP mentions nothing of Yes/No when I read it; unless it changed recently.

It does but in addition to that you also quoted Don't panic, who mentioned that very thing. It's been scatted about the replies in this thread as well.

Anyway, yeah, it is a yes or no question so your previously mentioned example would be rejected.

Here's hoping you're not the priest.

 

[stonyc]

Going back on the vamps, can someone explain how is the blood-drinking, power-stealing vamp not overpowered? if i understand right, before he gets activated he is basically a seer who can find other people identity AND use their powers (this is already much better than the seers). After he gets activated, he can kill people, talk to his buddies and he knows who many of the other player really are. it would b a slaughter.
i still think that the best way to improve the vamps without overdoing it is making all 3 of them real vamps, with ww immunity. this would ensure that vamps are almost certainly activated and strongly reduces the 'ethical dilemma' of the goth that some think could become a problem.

I'm sure Ravenvii will tweak things before the game if something seems out of hand... he asked how could we make the Vampires more powerful, so I answered.

I think if you make the Vampires active from the start, you're looking at two villager deaths per night (assuming both the WW and the Vampire attacks are successful)... that essentially turns the game into 5 rounds of Villager slaughter, followed by Vampires versus WWs until one finally gets the upper hand.

Let me go back to my original suggestion...

The (Alpha) Vampire is powerful, no question... but we can consider all kinds of tweaks to lessen his or her impact on the game. I mentioned a couple in my original post... we could consider some others (and combinations of handicaps) too:

- restrict what Specials he could leech a power from (WWs and Hunters only, for example... Seer, Undertaker, Sorcerer, Brotherhood, Priest, Spy would all look like regular Villagers to the Vampire because nothing happens).
- restrict what powers that the Vampire could leech (if he scans any WW, he could get Kamikaze, but he would get no information on if he drank from the Alpha, Infectious, or the Regular... if he scans a Hunter, he could leech Protection or Attack Immunity).
- can only drink from any single Villager once... so if the Vamp found a Hunter, the Vamp couldn't keep going back and leeching Attack Immunity 10 nights in a row. One and done.

You also have to remember that if a Goth finds the Vampire, the leech ability is gone... no more Seer-like ability. So if by chance the Goth finds the Vampire or vice versa on one of the early nights, the impact of the Alpha Vampire's leech might not be felt by the Villagers at all. Plus, remember that like the WWs, you could make it so that the Vampire only knows that they are a Hunter, but not what kind.

While knowing who might be who is incredibly powerful, like the Seer, the Vampire has to be very careful how he or she divulges that information. He could try to out one of the Hunters, but the Vamp then risks that he might be killing the WW Hunter, who the Vampire actually benefits from keeping alive... never mind that drawing attention to him or herself might earn the Vampire a fatal arrow from the Vampire Hunter. Trying to out a WW could be equally dangerous to the Vampire as well... it might make the Vampire look like the Seer, in which case the remaining WWs might focus their attention on the Vampire... it would also raise the suspicions from the actual Seer and/or Undertaker. Knowing what the Vampire is capable of, in combination with a careless Vampire can provide all sorts of information to vigilant Villager Specials.

Could the Vampire leech ability use some tweaks? Probably... but I think Ravenvii has done a good job of balancing the game to this point and can recognize if things will get out of whack pretty easily.

 

[-aggie-]

It does but in addition to that you also quoted Don't panic, who mentioned that very thing. It's been scatted about the replies in this thread as well.

Anyway, yeah, it is a yes or no question so your previously mentioned example would be rejected.

Here's hoping you're not the priest.

Priest: Should we kill jav first?

 

[jav6454]

Priest: Should we kill jav first?

If I were the wolf, you'd be the first to go ... oh, wait, I already did that I kid, i kid....

Edit - Too soon?

 

[Don't panic]

I'm sure Ravenvii will tweak things before the game if something seems out of hand... he asked how could we make the Vampires more powerful, so I answered.

I think if you make the Vampires active from the start, you're looking at two villager deaths per night (assuming both the WW and the Vampire attacks are successful)... that essentially turns the game into 5 rounds of Villager slaughter, followed by Vampires versus WWs until one finally gets the upper hand.

Let me go back to my original suggestion...

The (Alpha) Vampire is powerful, no question... but we can consider all kinds of tweaks to lessen his or her impact on the game. I mentioned a couple in my original post... we could consider some others (and combinations of handicaps) too:

- restrict what Specials he could leech a power from (WWs and Hunters only, for example... Seer, Undertaker, Sorcerer, Brotherhood, Priest, Spy would all look like regular Villagers to the Vampire because nothing happens).
- restrict what powers that the Vampire could leech (if he scans any WW, he could get Kamikaze, but he would get no information on if he drank from the Alpha, Infectious, or the Regular... if he scans a Hunter, he could leech Protection or Attack Immunity).
- can only drink from any single Villager once... so if the Vamp found a Hunter, the Vamp couldn't keep going back and leeching Attack Immunity 10 nights in a row. One and done.

You also have to remember that if a Goth finds the Vampire, the leech ability is gone... no more Seer-like ability. So if by chance the Goth finds the Vampire or vice versa on one of the early nights, the impact of the Alpha Vampire's leech might not be felt by the Villagers at all. Plus, remember that like the WWs, you could make it so that the Vampire only knows that they are a Hunter, but not what kind.

While knowing who might be who is incredibly powerful, like the Seer, the Vampire has to be very careful how he or she divulges that information. He could try to out one of the Hunters, but the Vamp then risks that he might be killing the WW Hunter, who the Vampire actually benefits from keeping alive... never mind that drawing attention to him or herself might earn the Vampire a fatal arrow from the Vampire Hunter. Trying to out a WW could be equally dangerous to the Vampire as well... it might make the Vampire look like the Seer, in which case the remaining WWs might focus their attention on the Vampire... it would also raise the suspicions from the actual Seer and/or Undertaker. Knowing what the Vampire is capable of, in combination with a careless Vampire can provide all sorts of information to vigilant Villager Specials.

Could the Vampire leech ability use some tweaks? Probably... but I think Ravenvii has done a good job of balancing the game to this point and can recognize if things will get out of whack pretty easily.

i like the concept but i think it isn't really applicable to this game unless you severely limit it.
even with minor tweaks, it would still be an incredibly powerful character. once he knows who the people are, he wouldn't try to 'out them', he would simply kill them at activation. plus this information would obviously be shared with the other vamps, giving them an enormous advantage. maybe you can have them identify the 'aura' of the scanned person, allowing that to find the alignment, but even that would be too much, IMO.

Actually, this power could be given to a separate character, (the Mystic?) whose only ability would be to find whether a person is good or bad (goth=evil aura). this would add a seer-lite without exactly duplicating a seer. If you want to make the seer and the mystic even more separate, you can have the seer only to be able to see the 'special' activity, but not the alignment (e.g. the seer wouldn't 'see' the normal wolf or the goth.
so the mystic, the seer and the undertaker wold have complementary powers, one can understand the 'nature' of the living (light or dark aura), one could understand their hidden powers (the specials), one would know everything about a character, but only after their death.

 

[ravenvii]

Actually, this power could be given to a separate character, (the Mystic?) whose only ability would be to find whether a person is good or bad (goth=evil aura). this would add a seer-lite without exactly duplicating a seer. If you want to make the seer and the mystic even more separate, you can have the seer only to be able to see the 'special' activity, but not the alignment (e.g. the seer wouldn't 'see' the normal wolf or the goth.
so the mystic, the seer and the undertaker wold have complementary powers, one can understand the 'nature' of the living (light or dark aura), one could understand their hidden powers (the specials), one would know everything about a character, but only after their death.

I like that idea, actually. But a question: so if a seer scans an alpha werewolf, would he then see that "the person has the ability to kill, as well as the ability to infect a person"? Wouldn't that make it too obvious that the person is, indeed, an alpha werewolf?

 

[chrmjenkins]

I like that idea, actually. But a question: so if a seer scans an alpha werewolf, would he then see that "the person has the ability to kill, as well as the ability to infect a person"? Wouldn't that make it too obvious that the person is, indeed, an alpha werewolf?

How about someone who can just see specials in general but has no idea of their alignment? Then they have to try and badger the hell out of them in the thread to glean info as to their role.