[WW] The MRville Horror, Part 3 GAME OVER - Villagers Win!

[Don't panic]

To be fair I think people are giving me too much credit about the lying thing. I was lucky that most people in the game liked me, so they weren't likely to vote for me for no reason. Add to that the fact that I'm naturally a pretty discreet person and most people saw no reason to suspect me until the very end. It is true that I avoided lying but it was only a small part of it.

it's the bunny eyes, silly.

Okay, I think you guys deserve an explanation. However, I can't reveal much, not yet anyway. It isn't an "operator error." There was some disagreements between a couple of players here. I gave them a day to figure it out. The game will proceed tonight, with or without them.

thanks for the (partial) explanation (though i am not sure i know much more than before ).
i do think that you, as moderator, have the power to take any decision that you see fit regarding the game, so, if things like these happen (whatever it was), you should be deciding the outcome, with no appeals.
Besides, 24 hours to 'settle things' seems to me way too much. maybe one or two tops. the game was already proceeding slowly for a number of different reasons and it's unfair to everyone else that they are penalized because a couple of players have a disagreement.

i want to make clear this is not a slight to you in any way. I really appreciate what you are doing and your 'color text' is fantastic.
by now, the players had ample time to settle the dispute, even too much. everyone should have send already the PMs and we should move on with the game. it's honestly ridiculous that we have to wait another several hours (i really think the 'fixed hours' are an unnecessary bottleneck)


On to the lying thing.
i am with the truth-benders here.
if you are one of the bad guys, the game is about deception. You can only afford to be 'honest' if you are a vanilla villager.
i don't find any ethical judgment value to be attached to the game.
if i asked someone on day one "what is your role in the game?" and they answered truthfully "I am the infectious warewolf, gotta a problem with that?" i would respect their honesty, despise their stupidity and proceed to vote them off the island. then i might quit the game, because with those 'moral rules' in place it would be pointless.
and, by the way, there is no difference between a finesse and a blatant lie. in the case of Jav, he did 'lie', directly and repeatedly by posing as someone he was not. he did it fairly well although eventually not all of us bought it.
but if lying is frowned upon, so should be saying straight "I am a good guy", because it skews the playing fields against those whose role requires some degree of deception/carefulness (not only the baddies).
The most important quality of a poker player is, after all, to be able to pull off bluffs, or imply that you could.
Finally, there is already an implied payoff in honesty: if you are truthful people are more likely to trust you in the next game. the opposite goes for in-your-face-liers.

that said i'll conclude with what all of you already know: I am a common villager and i do not lie.

post-note: i am off to a long flight and vacation so i'll be posting less frequently and likely not at all in the next few hours (unless i can do it from the airport -why can't macrumors work evne half-decently from an iphone? why isn't there an app for that?-)

so if ravenvii allows me i would like to pre-vote:
if I am still alive (which i have a feeling i might not be), and if they are still alive (which i suspect they will be), my vote is based on this:

jav6454: 8 (willbro, Mexbearpig, Gelfin, ucfgrad93, Don't Panic, mscriv, abijnk, tooz)
willbro: 6 (iBookG4user, jav6454, King Mook Mook, Tomorrow, Melrose, Renewed)

which i interpret as:
willbro, Mexbearpig, Gelfin, ucfgrad93, mscriv = unlikely to be warewolves
abjink, tooz = probably not warewolves (unless they pulled off a queen's sacrifice, very risky)
Rodimus = don't know
iBookG4user, King Mook Mook, Tomorrow, Melrose, Renewed = candidates for hairyness (>50%)

(note that the bloodsuckerness is still all open, so the ones in the first group are not in my 'definitive good guys list' yet)

based on this my vote goes to Renewed, iBookG4user, Melrose, Tomorrow, King Mook Mook. in this order (if one or more of them dies tonight).
ravenvii, i'll leave it up to you to set if this pre-vote is valid or not. whatever you decide is fine by me.

take care everyone and sorry for the long tirade.
i 'll try to log in regularly.

 

[Tomorrow]

based on this my vote goes to Renewed, iBookG4user, Melrose, Tomorrow, King Mook Mook. in this order (if one or more of them dies tonight).

So much I would like to say, without actually saying it. It will all come out in the end, though.

 

[iBookG4user]

iBookG4user, King Mook Mook, Tomorrow, Melrose, Renewed = candidates for hairyness (>50%)

I think you're forgetting that my very first vote was for jav6454, and I was the first to vote for jav in that round and there (The second round of voting, I wasn't able to vote in the first). I was actually the first to draw attention to jav6454.

Jav6454, I'm just getting an odd feeling from them.

And my second vote was for jav as well, the only reason I changed was because willbro seemed a bit too anxious so it got me suspicious, which was a trait of one of the werewolves from last game. Otherwise I would have kept firm on my vote for jav.

 

[abijnk]

which i interpret as:
willbro, Mexbearpig, Gelfin, ucfgrad93, mscriv = unlikely to be warewolves
abjink, tooz = probably not warewolves (unless they pulled off a queen's sacrifice, very risky)
Rodimus = don't know
iBookG4user, King Mook Mook, Tomorrow, Melrose, Renewed = candidates for hairyness (>50%)

*googles queen's sacrifice*

Ah, chess, ok, that's why I've never heard that term.

 

[jav6454]

which i interpret as:
willbro, Mexbearpig, Gelfin, ucfgrad93, mscriv = unlikely to be warewolves
abjink, tooz = probably not warewolves (unless they pulled off a queen's sacrifice, very risky)
Rodimus = don't know
iBookG4user, King Mook Mook, Tomorrow, Melrose, Renewed = candidates for hairyness (>50%)

Bold assumptions. But here I stand thinking, why is it, that you try to put pressure on others? Hiding something aren't we?

 

[anjinha]

Bold assumptions. But here I stand thinking, why is it, that you try to put pressure on others? Hiding something aren't we?

How is he putting pressure on others?

 

[jav6454]

How is he putting pressure on others?

Pre-voting and also calling out names. I'd say thats pressure enough on those called out.

 

[Don't panic]

Bold assumptions. But here I stand thinking, why is it, that you try to put pressure on others? Hiding something aren't we?

sticking with your brethren even after death?
commendable.

 

[anjinha]

Pre-voting and also calling out names. I'd say thats pressure enough on those called out.

That's a bit of a stretch. What is he supposed to do if he can't be around for the voting?

 

[abijnk]

That's a bit of a stretch. What is he supposed to do if he can't be around for the voting?

I don't mean to be rude, but why do you care? You aren't playing in this game.

EDIT: To clarify why I ask, I think you are flirting with the line between posting in a game you aren't participating in, and strategizing in a game you aren't participating in. That's why I ask.

 

[anjinha]

I don't mean to be rude, but why do you care? You aren't playing in this game.

EDIT: To clarify why I ask, I think you are flirting with the line between posting in a game you aren't participating in, and strategizing in a game you aren't participating in. That's why I ask.

I didn't know that was a problem. If jav can post while is dead why can't I do the same even though I'm not in this game?

 

[abijnk]

I didn't know that was a problem. If jav can post while is dead why can't I do the same even though I'm not in this game?

Erm, because Jav is/was part of the game?

I don't have a problem with you posting generally, but this game is proving to have enough problems without people who aren't even involved trying to sway votes and decisions. Personally, I would prefer if you didn't try to address game issues while not involved in the game in any form or fashion other than casual observer.

 

[anjinha]

Erm, because Jav is/was part of the game?

I don't have a problem with you posting generally, but this game is proving to have enough problems without people who aren't even involved trying to sway votes and decisions. Personally, I would prefer if you didn't try to address game issues while not involved in the game in any form or fashion other than casual observer.

But since he's dead he's not a player anymore. Also in his case since he was a werewolf he knows who the other werewolf is and can influence players accordingly to save his buddy, which is not really fair. All I'm doing is sharing my completely unbiased opinion, which people have always done in these games. I don't know why it's a problem when I do it.

 

[abijnk]

But since he's dead he's not a player anymore. Also in his case since he was a werewolf he knows who the other werewolf is and can influence players accordingly to save his buddy, which is not really fair. All I'm doing is sharing my completely unbiased opinion, which people have always done in these games. I don't know why it's a problem when I do it.

There were other posts in the last game, but none where people were directly trying to influence the outcome. Also, it is status quo that "zombies" may post, just like last game.

And I am not singling you out, you are just the only person in here doing that.

All I'm asking is that you please not try to influence the outcome of the game as an outsider. Simple request. If other players disagree with me they are welcome to say so, I'd be willing to change my mind if others think it's ok for people who didn't sign up for the game to play anyways.

 

[-aggie-]

I don't mean to be rude, but why do you care? You aren't playing in this game.

EDIT: To clarify why I ask, I think you are flirting with the line between posting in a game you aren't participating in, and strategizing in a game you aren't participating in. That's why I ask.

I think she just likes to ask questions, because that’s all I get from her in our WW game.

AFAIK, and I’m the slowest player of this game due to some comments from “others? ,” but anyone dead is not supposed to say anything that could influence the game. I would assume this applies to people outside the game, but who’s to stop them?

Edit: And Jav posts plenty in our game.

 

[anjinha]

There were other posts in the last game, but none where people were directly trying to influence the outcome. Also, it is status quo that "zombies" may post, just like last game.

And I am not singling you out, you are just the only person in here doing that.

All I'm asking is that you please not try to influence the outcome of the game as an outsider. Simple request. If other players disagree with me they are welcome to say so, I'd be willing to change my mind if others think it's ok for people who didn't sign up for the game to play anyways.

But why is it worse that I, as an observant of the same with no bias or desired outcome of the game, post my opinion then a dead werewolf who actually knows who the other werewolf is and can actually influence people with that knowledge so that his buddy is saved? I'm not trying to influence the game either way, just giving my opinion, but jav actually knows who the werewolf is but he just tried to get you suspicious about someone. Is that fair?

Again, I'm just giving my opinion. Jav is effectively still playing even though he's supposed to be dead.

 

[Gelfin]

Yeah, I have been avoiding saying anything, but some of Jav's postmortem statements have strategic value for other players, and I'm pretty sure we agreed not to do that.

 

[abijnk]

But why is it worse that I, as an observant of the same with no bias or desired outcome of the game, post my opinion then a dead werewolf who actually knows who the other werewolf is and can actually influence people with that knowledge so that his buddy is saved? I'm not trying to influence the game either way, just giving my opinion, but jav actually knows who the werewolf is but he just tried to get you suspicious about someone. Is that fair?

Again, I'm just giving my opinion. Jav is effectively still playing even though he's supposed to be dead.

Ravenvii addressed the issue of dead players posting in the last game. While he preferred that they didn't post strategically, he also didn't try to stop it.

As a live player in the game Jav was accountable for his actions in that he could be lynched. As you are well aware, he was lynched, and now everyone knows he is/was a wolf. People now see his contributions to the game from that perspective and can judge his inputs as such.

You are not in this situation or even close to it. As an outside observer inserting yourself into the game you are effectively playing the role of a villager without any possibility of personal consequence. You can't be lynched, but you also can't be swayed because you have no vote.

As the rules stand you have no place in this game. If you would like to participate in a future game I would suggest that you PM ravenvii or post in the next game thread asking to add the role of "observer" or something to that effect. People who can't have special abilities, can't be voted off, but still post strategically, trying to gather information and sway votes. The rules now don't provide for this capacity, and it has been the practice that this role is not taken on.

In the interest of game integrity and to preserve the status quo up to this point, I felt the right thing to do was to ask you to post only as an observer and not to try to influence the game strategically (and yes, information gathering is most definitely participating strategically).

That request still stands.

Yeah, I have been avoiding saying anything, but some of Jav's postmortem statements have strategic value for other players, and I'm pretty sure we agreed not to do that.

As I said above, ravenvii didn't stop it last game, so he would need to interject this game. That said I completely agree, I think he should be required to tone it down.

 

[dukebound85]

Yeah, I have been avoiding saying anything, but some of Jav's postmortem statements have strategic value for other players, and I'm pretty sure we agreed not to do that.

As a spectator, I agree that this is poor form as well

 

[jav6454]

Yeah, I have been avoiding saying anything, but some of Jav's postmortem statements have strategic value for other players, and I'm pretty sure we agreed not to do that.

Not really, I have pointed out somethings that quite obvious for me. Other than that, I have had no say in the votes, nor do I intend to. I find it much more amusing to see people squable and find my acompliss than spoil the fun.


Also, on the other game I do not add any value but the comedy relief. I see no problem in that, but if you do, please say so and I will stop.

 

[-aggie-]

As a spectator, I agree that this is poor form as well

Who wants to vote to kill Jav again?

I couldn’t resist, sorry.

 

[anjinha]

Again, how is me asking questions worse than jav trying to get everyone suspicious of someone when he knows who the werewolf is? What I'm doing won't particularly help either side since I'm just as likely to debate with a villager as with a werewolf. But jav has the knowledge to try to influence players away from the other werewolf.

Not really, I have pointed out somethings that quite obvious for me. Other than that, I have had no say in the votes, nor do I intend to. I find it much more amusing to see people squable and find my acompliss than spoil the fun.

That's what I'm doing too except that since I don't know who the werewolf is I can't possibly try to get people suspicious of someone on purpose.

 

[mscriv]

Again, I'm just giving my opinion. Jav is effectively still playing even though he's supposed to be dead.

Correct, and Jav should stop. Dead players are free to post fun commentary for the purpose of camaraderie, but they should not be influencing the game with speculation, questions, or accusations. Sorry folks, but dead is dead. Prior to this game starting ravenvii stated:

And good point re: not actually "dying" bringing less impact to the game. And yes, the last game was a bit of a mess with dead players posting. Since I asked them to reduce their participation in the middle of the game, I couldn't really adjust the rules and enforce it. But thanks for reminding me - I'll emphasize that in the original post.

And then he clearly said in the rules:

d) Dead players can NOT participate in the game - this includes providing information, encouragement, tips or otherwise. While I will not be a nazi about it - dead players can post funny ghost animations or whatnot, they can not post substantial posts.

For the sake of everyone, if you are not an active player in the game please don't break this rule. Have fun by being a part with us, but don't cross the line.

 

[chrmjenkins]

The problem with any non-player posting strategic info having not been a part of the game at any point is that his or her allegiance could be anywhere. He/she may be friends with any number of specials, and they could have casually expressed their status to that person, or he/she may just be friends with someone and are trying to sway opinion to help them out. That's even more ambiguous than a participant in the thread, dead or not.

 

[abijnk]

Again, how is me asking questions worse than jav trying to get everyone suspicious of someone when he knows who the werewolf is? What I'm doing won't particularly help either side since I'm just as likely to debate with a villager as with a werewolf. But jav has the knowledge to try to influence players away from the other werewolf.

I have addressed this several times and have also provided my thoughts on Jav's continued level of participation in response to both you and Gelfin.

I guess I will assume my request is going to be ignored.