[WW] The MRville Horror, Part 3 GAME OVER - Villagers Win!

[iBlue]

To be honest this is all sounding a little complicated.

I think the vamp and the goth thing is interesting, the shaman, the extra hunter is cool to help balance things out for the village but the Undead role confuses me a little and might slow things down. I am of the opinion that if a villager is attacked by a vamp they should either die or become a vamp as well. (probably just die or there will be a real epidemic!)

 

[chrmjenkins]

(and awesome discussion so far - I like the way you think re: certain specials being immune to attack, mscriv!)

But but, that was my idea.

 

[abijnk]

(and awesome discussion so far - I like the way you think re: certain specials being immune to attack, mscriv!)

So, I don't care personally, but it was chrmjenkins who came up with that. I wouldn't say anything but now I'm having to hear about it IRL...

 

[Don't panic]

edit: Another idea to make this more difficult/interesting, everyone playing should put their profiles on "invisible mode". I'm saying this now before anything is decided so as not to make myself look all suspect. Thread interaction and voting would mean more than visible log-in times.

Look at me! look at me!
Oh wait, you can't,
Because I am INVISIBLE!

Muhahahaahah!

 

[mscriv]

But but, that was my idea.

So, I don't care personally, but it was chrmjenkins who came up with that. I wouldn't say anything but now I'm having to hear about it IRL...

Don't cry my friend, all credit to you for the idea that wolves and vamps can't kill each other. I think ravenvii is referring to my thought that the hunter couldn't be killed by the werewolves, but is vulnerable to the vampires. Abi, comfort your man!

 

[Mexbearpig]

I'm with you iBlue! It's all so intricate.

But but, that was my idea.Smiley snip

Hahaha, this had me chuckling.

 

[Tomorrow]

The vampires is another group (so now it's vampires vs. werewolves vs. villagers). The biggest issue is the balancing of the three,

...the idea that wolves and vamps can't kill each other.

So, you have three groups against each other; one group can kill villagers, one group can convert villagers, and the villagers "randomly" take turns killing someone, even if it's one of their own?

Sounds to me like this is already set up to be vampires > werewolves > villagers in terms of the odds of winning.

I'll come out and say it - I think the whole idea of adding vampires, undead, goths, emos, whatever, detracts from the game more than it contributes to it, if only for the level of confusion it introduces. At least I'm confused by it.

 

[Don't panic]

i agree with iBlue that if we got things too complex, it might slow the game down significantly.

isn't the shaman too powerful? one heal every day seems too much. maybe a single opportunity or one every other day (needs time to rebuild her/his mana)
how did we solve the fact that the healed characters know the baddies?

The reveal could be interesting, but i would associate it to the shaman power. once the shaman is gone, the power is gone (like the coroner).

the vampire/goth thing is i think a bit complex, do you need the goth? what is the strategic purpose? can't the vampire just have her/his meal?

 

[iBlue]

I think if we're going to have these additional roles the very good idea of some specials being perma-protected is the best way to help balance the baddies to villagers ratio. The Shaman and the Hunter in particular are useful and would be wise to look after.

edit: I thought the Shaman could only heal once per DAY (which is really every-other day because each runs for about 24 hours). Also, don't they just pick someone blindly? Meaning they may never get a heal-hit?

I like the voting for reveal after a hanging idea too.

 

[jav6454]

So, you have three groups against each other; one group can kill villagers, one group can convert villagers, and the villagers "randomly" take turns killing someone, even if it's one of their own?

Sounds to me like this is already set up to be vampires > werewolves > villagers in terms of the odds of winning.

I'll come out and say it - I think the whole idea of adding vampires, undead, goths, emos, whatever, detracts from the game more than it contributes to it, if only for the level of confusion it introduces. At least I'm confused by it.

Well, the odds always have that the villagers are going to loose. However, in the previous 2 threads that I followed, I found that the villagers won under overwhelming odds.

Note, the villagers had a nice strategy going all the time, logical reasoning, self notation, deriving if & else's mathematically... oh who am I kidding, they just picked randomly and won.

i agree with iBlue that if we got things too complex, it might slow the game down significantly.

isn't the shaman too powerful? one heal every day seems too much. maybe a single opportunity or one every other day (needs time to rebuild her/his mana)
how did we solve the fact that the healed characters know the baddies?

The reveal could be interesting, but i would associate it to the shaman power. once the shaman is gone, the power is gone (like the coroner).

the vampire/goth thing is i think a bit complex, do you need the goth? what is the strategic purpose? can't the vampire just have her/his meal?

Recall, the Shaaman will pick someone at random to cure. So the cured might be an already innocent villager.

 

[Mexbearpig]

This may be to intricate for me and will take a lot of reading/following this thread. I think the vampire addition is a great idea but I don't think I'm ready for it.

Ravenii-Didn't you say you wanted 2 games-one with vamps ect. and one with basic rules? If so would anyone else be interested in transferring from this game to that game?

 

[ravenvii]

I think if we're going to have these additional roles the very good idea of some specials being perma-protected is the best way to help balance the baddies to villagers ratio. The Shaman and the Hunter in particular are useful and would be wise to look after.

edit: I thought the Shaman could only heal once per DAY (which is really every-other day because each runs for about 24 hours). Also, don't they just pick someone blindly? Meaning they may never get a heal-hit?

You'll know what happens when you attempt a cure. "This villager is healthy as a ox," or "You healed this villager of vampirism!" and so forth.

 

[iBlue]

You'll know what happens when you attempt a cure. "This villager is healthy as a ox," or "You healed this villager of vampirism!" and so forth.

OK but they do still choose blindly. I was more pointing out that it wasn't THAT powerful of a role... not one that could easily clean the village of baddies rapidly or anything.


These games always sound more complicated than they really are to play anyway but I hope we're not complicating it all too much. This has been my favourite thing at MR lately!

 

[mscriv]

The vampires is another group (so now it's vampires vs. werewolves vs. villagers). The biggest issue is the balancing of the three, and that's what we're discussing.

To me this is the key and where we need to focus. The game is now about three different and distinct groups trying to win. The villagers only chance is to kill all the werewolves and vampires. The vampires/werewolves want to bump off each other clearing the path for the surviving group to feast on the villagers. What I like about chrmjenkins idea of not allowing the vamps and wolves to kill each other is it makes them dependant upon the villagers to do the killing for them. So if I'm a wolf or vamp I'm trying to steer the votes clear from me while at the same time manipulate the votes against my supernatural opposition. The only hope the villagers have is that the specials (hunter, seer, undertaker, shaman, etc.) can give clues as to the identities of the evil creatures that kill in the night.

My thought about a reveal vote is simply an effort to even the playing field some by making everyone in the game vulnerable to something and allowing for a way to discover the identities of the wolves/vamps without the seer committing suicide. Maybe a better thought is that the seer is inactive like the coroner and reveal votes are cast each day as long as the seer is alive. When he/she is killed the reveal votes stop. Hmm.... not sure.

I don't think I get how the undead add to the game. The vampires shouldn't be subject to those who they have killed.

For simplicity sake maybe we do away with the infectious werewolf, making he/she a regular werewolf, and we eliminate the goth role. The vampire could fill both of these roles by being able to turn one villager at any time he chooses. With this option the werewolf count is always two and the mystery of the vampire becomes is there one or two bloodsuckers?

 

[ravenvii]

After reading the discussion and some thought, I've changed the OP to reflect some changes to the Hunter.

There is now the Hunter and the Vampire Hunter. They have the same abilities. However, the Hunter is immune to werewolf attack, while the Vampire Hunter is immune to vampire attack.

I'm also thinking of removing the coroner role entirely - the affiliation of the player will be revealed upon their lynching.

As for werewolves-vs-vampires, I'm thinking of instead of one trumping the other, or they being immune to each other, how about I randomize it? If they do collide, I'll "toss a dice", and whoever lands face up dies/loses?

OK but they do still choose blindly. I was more pointing out that it wasn't THAT powerful of a role... not one that could easily clean the village of baddies rapidly or anything.

To make the Shaman more powerful would be overcomplicating things

Actually, think of the Shaman as a second lynching shot, except the villager survives.

Basically, those who say the villagers are underpowered, in this game, they basically have 4 shots, while the werewolves and vampires only have one each (except for the anomaly of the kamikaze werewolf).

 

[Don't panic]

Recall, the Shaaman will pick someone at random to cure. So the cured might be an already innocent villager.

yes, but there is no downside to it. it's like the lynching, but without the chance of killing one of your own.

also would people know if there was an actual heal or not? or who was targeted?

would it be just communicated to the healed person by PM, who now becomes a 'spy' in the baddie team? does the healed one continue to PM the WW? is the announcement of the shaman public, so everyone knows from now on X is healed?

ravenvii: out of curiosity, how do you 'assign' the roles? and on a related but OT subject, how do computers generate random numbers? are they really random?

as far as the vamp/ww abilities interactions, i think if one of the activities leads to death, death it is.
if the ww tries to infect a vamp, there are complications in the conversion and the vamp dies instead.

how about balancing the ww and vamps by making basically the same?
- 2 of each: infectious + kamikaze active from night one
- the 'converted' victim is a normal vamp/ww. other bitten ones simply die (even if they are ww or vamps) (no undead)
- if ww tries to convert vamp, the victim dies (the ww will know it was a vamp)
- if vamp tries to convert ww, victim dies (the vamp will know it was a ww)
- if ww or vamp attack each other on the same night, they both die (bonus for the villagers)

 

[ravenvii]

yes, but there is no downside to it. it's like the lynching, but without the chance of killing one of your own.

also would people know if there was an actual heal or not? or who was targeted?

would it be just communicated to the healed person by PM, who now becomes a 'spy' in the baddie team? does the healed one continue to PM the WW? is the announcement of the shaman public, so everyone knows from now on X is healed?

Ooh, *that*'s a wrinkle I hadn't thought of. The healed player would know the role of the other werewolf.

Might have to eliminate the shaman role entirely for that reason. Any ideas?

However, if we do keep the Shaman role, the other werewolves will know that their mate has been healed. So he/she could not be a spy.

 

[mscriv]

As for werewolves-vs-vampires, I'm thinking of instead of one trumping the other, or they being immune to each other, how about I randomize it? If they do collide, I'll "toss a dice", and whoever lands face up dies/loses?

I don't like random. See my post above about the balance of power being even in that the wolves and vamps must use the villagers to eliminate each other.

Basically, those who say the villagers are underpowered, in this game, they basically have 4 shots, while the werewolves and vampires only have one each (except for the anomaly of the kamikaze werewolf).

I see what you are saying, but they really don't have 4 shots in that the specials are not going to come out and reveal what they know. In two games so far no one has said "okay everyone, I'm the seer and we can rule out mscriv because I scanned him. Dear hunter, I'm revealing this with the hopes that you will save me." The vamps, if we end up with two, and the wolves have the advantage of being able to PM and consult. The villagers must talk in code if they talk at all. I think this is why many who have played so far and many who have observed as well comment that the villagers are just randomly guessing. The challenge is finding a balance between random and strategy that works for each of the three groups playing the game.

Might have to eliminate the shaman role entirely for that reason. Any ideas? However, if we do keep the Shaman role, the other werewolves will know that their mate has been healed. So he/she could not be a spy.

I think we may need to eliminate the Shaman. But, if you keep the role then it becomes very important when the healing is done and revealed because ultimately it is a death sentence for the healed werewolf or vampire (in the event that there are two vampires) Basically, if the healing is revealed each day after the lynching then the wolves or vamp would be forced to kill their former ally in the night to avoid them spilling the truth. This would present a predicament for the hunters in that they must choose if they want to protect the person healed just in case they were a former wolf/vamp. Ultimately all of this would only work if we suspend strategic discussion during the night so that the healed former ally doesn't spill their secrets as soon as they are healed. Maybe, if we keep the Shaman role, it should be limited to one healing a game as has been previously suggested. This would solve some of the problems and place more pressure on the Shaman to choose wisely.

 

[renewed]

I want in... now time to read this thread.

 

[Don't panic]

Ooh, *that*'s a wrinkle I hadn't thought of. The healed player would know the role of the other werewolf.

Might have to eliminate the shaman role entirely for that reason. Any ideas?

However, if we do keep the Shaman role, the other werewolves will know that their mate has been healed. So he/she could not be a spy.

one other way i think it could work is if the shaman PM the identity of the person to heal to you, then -if the chosen one is a vamp or a ww-, you PM them they were healed.
noone else knows anything, even the Shaman only knows that from now on, that person is a normal villager, but s/he could have already been one before. the rest of the people do not even know the identity of the subject, unless the shaman tells them.

In terms of the behaviour of the healed one, you could just tell the WWs (or the vamps) that XYZ is no longer one of them, or you could let them in the dark and the healed character is effectively a spy.
what the character do with their new-found knowledge, is their choice.

 

[Shaun.P]

Can I take part please?

 

[iShater]

This thing is getting complicated.

Why don't you add one new role/element per game? that way by the time you have all of these new characters in it, the kinks would be worked out and you have at least a good number of people who understand what is going on?

 

[iBookG4user]

Ooh, *that*'s a wrinkle I hadn't thought of. The healed player would know the role of the other werewolf.

Might have to eliminate the shaman role entirely for that reason. Any ideas?

However, if we do keep the Shaman role, the other werewolves will know that their mate has been healed. So he/she could not be a spy.

What if you have it so that the werewolf does not know that they have been healed? So they would continue to PM you, but their vote would not count for anything. The only one who would know that they have been healed is the shaman.

 

[iBlue]

What if you have it so that the werewolf does not know that they have been healed? So they would continue to PM you, but their vote would not count for anything. The only one who would know that they have been healed is the shaman.

Ooh, that's a good idea! Denial Wolf!


And considering how difficult it is to guess who the baddies are I really think the Shaman needs more than one try at healing or with this many baddies the villagers are done for. Think of how many incorrect guesses we had during the last game to find the last wolf.

 

[dukebound85]

Wow this is becoming confusing... coming from a guy who has played mafia extensively in the past