Apple and Other Companies Fear 'Looming End' of H-1B Work Visa Spousal Protection Program

[Glideslope]

What we have right now is the Boomer divide between them and the Millenials of "I've got mine why don't you have yours?" The issue of a shortfall in qualified people is a simple one, train them. That's what they got and that's what should be done. Bringing people in using H1bs displaces native born citizens, that's simply a fact.

Train them? They are not seeking Engineering Degrees. Don't quite follow the logic? Take a laid off assembly line worker from Ford and train them in what? H1-B positions are not displacing any engineers where my son is. That is a fact. There are simply NO WHERE near enough American Engineers. H1-B applicants are not being hired to put wheels on automobiles in Detroit. The majority of his Millenial friends want nothing to do with the engineering field. They will not submit to a new career path when there is so much opportunity to make a fast buck other ways. American's don't want to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work to obtain an advanced engineering degree in 2018.

H1-B applicants are necessary for the forceable future, and should receive the same wages as citizens. Perhaps in 25 years we will fill our highly skilled engineering needs. Kill the H1-B outright, and the American Tech Industry will collapse. That is a fact also.

 

[jav6454]

So 18 or 24 year old you could instantly do you job without any assistance whatsoever at the level you do now? Laughible. People grow and learn that is literally where the whole "respect your elders" comes from. We aren't reptiles who rely purely in instinct.

No company trains you unless what you do is highly specific and crucial to leave to flow of time. Otherwise, all companies expect employees to grow as the keep on working. Yes, companies do have training events, but these events are not meant to supplant the basis taught at college.

 

[robbyx]

Exactly! The simple solution is this: Find a smart kid, pay to train him and blamo problem solved. These companies want ready-made workers that do not exist and they'd rather train some poor schmuck who's life depends on him being agreeable.
[doublepost=1516295795][/doublepost]

Explain this?

http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10

*THERE IS NO SHORTAGE* these people simply don't want to cough up the money to find good talent. They would rather have 5-6 of H1bs half-ass the work then hire a single talented engineer.

I'm not sure what this article has to do with foreign workers. Smart kid. In a way I'm amazed that Google allows this. No doubt they would shut it down immediately if there were 500 Brandons in the parking lot. If anything, these tech companies should be building dorms for their young, fresh out of college workers.

 

[sentential]

Train them? They are not seeking Engineering Degrees. Don't quite follow the logic? Take a laid off assembly line worker from Ford and train them in what? H1-B positions are not displacing any engineers where my son is. That is a fact. There are simply NO WHERE near enough American Engineers. H1-B applicants are not being hired to put wheels on automobiles in Detroit. The majority of his Millenial friends want nothing to do with the engineering field. They will not submit to a new career path when there is so much opportunity to make a fast buck other ways. American's don't want to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work to obtain an advanced engineering degree in 2018.

H1-B applicants are necessary for the forceable future, and should receive the same wages as citizens. Perhaps in 25 years we will fill our highly skilled engineering needs. Kill the H1-B outright, and the American Tech Industry will collapse. That is a fact also.

Again that is full stop wrong. No one is talking about John or Suzie working on a basket weaving degree. There are plenty of underemployed millennials who are every bit as talented as you or your son who simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time economically speaking. As a result it is easier to toss these people to the curb while others continue to consolidate money and influence.

Society is a group effort, trying to denigrate another human being simply because they think differently or have a different life experience than you is the very thing people accuse Trump of. No everyone lives in the valley. The US is not New York or Los Angeles. This whole "Americans are lazy" is completely false.

 

[GuruZac]

Yes...but Trump did this to avoid hiring Hispanics and Black workers who live in nearby West Palm Beach...he wants only European White Workers....he would say...his members demand it.

Jesus, you really have bought into the “Trump is a racist” BS haven’t you? I’m no defender of Trump, by any means, but he’s no racist and not racially motivated. The Left knows no bounds when it comes to throwing out the race card any chance they get.

 

[sentential]

I'm not sure what this article has to do with foreign workers. Smart kid. In a way I'm amazed that Google allows this. No doubt they would shut it down immediately if there were 500 Brandons in the parking lot. If anything, these tech companies should be building dorms for their young, fresh out of college workers.

Well eeeexxxxcuseee me bigshot. Did you not read that he "saved" 90% of his income by living in a truck? Meaning 90% of his income went to rent or did that little nugget escape you? Yes shut down the rabble and the poors, that'll fix it!

Who in their right mind would endure that situation if they had no other choice? Why is it OK that this goes on? If google paid enough this wouldn't happen and they reason they CAN is because of the H1bs.

Cause -> Effect

As for the dorms that is LITERALLY bringing back the company store and script, both of which Amazon is starting to do for their H1B personnel.

 

[rjohnstone]

Again. Wrong.

Companies never did that training, you got a degree and then you went to work. Just like alot of us in the IT world did and still do.

Also you are wrong if you think cheap labor when talking about H1B visas.

This depends on how you define "cheap labor".
There are H1-B visa holders making the bare minimum for their field.
Just an example, one of our Engineer II positions have a wide salary range. It starts at $35k and can go as high as $50k.
Paying an H1-B holder the minimum wage for the position is pretty common in the industry.
Remember, there are a crap ton of H1-B holders in what many consider entry level IT jobs. Help Desk type jobs.
These are jobs that don't require a lot of initial training and are commonly used as starting points in many careers in IT.

 

[KdParker]

The truth of it is, these sort of people who are understandably desperate and rely on government assistant almost entirely vote Democrat. Is it any wonder why the Democrats continue to push for unfettered immigration? This is all about consolidating power, pure and simple.
[doublepost=1516297257][/doublepost]
So 18 or 24 year old you could instantly do you job without any assistance whatsoever at the level you do now? Laughible. People grow and learn that is literally where the whole "respect your elders" comes from. We aren't reptiles who rely purely in instinct.

UH yeah...

It is called 'education' .

IT professionals covers several fields of expertise.

As a developer, most of us were already writing programs/applications before we even finished school and shifting to working for a company was easy since is was the same tech.

This goes for all fields in IT.

Now....lets say you can't afford to got collage. For $100 bucks per year, you can pick all the IT training on any topic you want and go to companies with experience.

 

[macsrcool1234]

Born, raised, and live in the US.

You go where the talent and desire is.

- I rarely find spelling errors and the inability to clearly communicate on resumes from Indian developers.
- I rarely have foreign candidates turn down positions because they expect to make the same salary as other employees with tenure starting on day one.
- I rarely have foreign workers sitting at their desks with faces planted firmly in their Instagram accounts.
- I rarely have foreign workers regularly do the bare minimum just because "that's what I'm getting paid to do".

Shall I go on?

You want people like me to hire more US workers? Fix education and the attitude and I'll consider it.

Do tell us what reality you are living in

 

[boast]

However, people in these threads talking about killing the H1-B so American's can simply step in need a reality check on the failures of our education system.

I don't believe most think that killing H1-B is the solution. The original problem is that verifying that American applicants were not qualified for the job is not strictly enforced. You would assume being American you get first dibs on jobs within your own country, but not anymore.

We cannot rely on supply and demand to increase our wages because supply is suddenly coming from across the globe. Telling students from third-world countries they will make $130,000 a year is plenty to entice them to go into STEM fields. If you told American students they would make at least $500,000 coming out of school, I believe it would have the same effect. But we will never reach those wages (outside Silicon Valley) as long as we can entice workers for cheaper.

And being able to overwork H1B employees gives you more bang for your buck.

 

[jav6454]

Again that is full stop wrong. No one is talking about John or Suzie working on a basket weaving degree. There are plenty of underemployed millennials who are every bit as talented as you or your son who simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time economically speaking. As a result it is easier to toss these people to the curb while others continue to consolidate money and influence.

Society is a group effort, trying to denigrate another human being simply because they think differently or have a different life experience than you is the very thing people accuse Trump of. No everyone lives in the valley. The US is not New York or Los Angeles. This whole "Americans are lazy" is completely false.

The issue here is that John and Suzie chose to study basket weaving and now want 70k+ salary and full benefits. That is not going to happen. What needs to happen? They need to go back to college and study a STEM degree that is paying what they want. They won't however. Why? Because "it's too hard".

Also, companies are not going to train someone into an engineering job if they only have a Basket Weaving Degree. It won't happen as it consumes too much time, and money. Furthermore, while that training is going on, John or Suzie are being improductive in the company.

 

[sentential]

UH yeah...

It is called 'education' .

IT professionals covers several fields of expertise.

As a developer, most of us were already writing programs/applications before we even finished school and shifting to working for a company was easy since is was the same tech.

This goes for all fields in IT.

Now....lets say you can't afford to got collage. For $100 bucks per year, you can pick all the IT training on any topic you want and go to companies with experience.

Oh come the **** on, you and I both know full well that you don't just waltz into a company and immediately have everything you need to work on whatever project is asked of you. There are SOPs, MOPs and other addendum that each specific company has and if the entry level positions were not crammed full of these people maybe they wouldn't have such an issue promoting within?

 

[KdParker]

This depends on how you define "cheap labor".
There are H1-B visa holders making the bare minimum for their field.
Just an example, one of our Engineer II positions has a wide salary range. It starts at $35k and can go as high as $50k.
Paying an H1-B holder the minimum wage for the position is pretty common in the industry.
Remember, there are a crap ton of H1-B holders in what many consider entry level IT jobs. Help Desk type jobs.
These are jobs that don't require a lot of initial training and are commonly used as starting points in many careers in IT.

I agree with with what you are saying.

But from a hiring company point of view, we still have the extra cost of sponsoring an H1B visas, which drives up the cost.

It will always be better for the bottom line to hire an entry level IT staff that is not on a H1B visa.
The reason companies are paying the extra cost is because the don't have the skilled employees/applicants to hire at entry level IT positions.

 

[sentential]

The issue here is that John and Suzie chose to study basket weaving and now want 70k+ salary and full benefits. That is not going to happen. What needs to happen? They need to go back to college and study a STEM degree that is paying what they want. They won't however. Why? Because "it's too hard".

Also, companies are not going to train someone into an engineering job if they only have a Basket Weaving Degree. It won't happen as it consumes too much time, and money. Furthermore, while that training is going on, John or Suzie are being improductive in the company.

You're completely missing the point companies purposefully put ridiculously specific requirement on a great number of these jobs that no one, even a good engineer could fill or could afford to do and then use that as justification to move the job to an H1b holder. That's the issue.

People outside of this want to paint a picture of a bunch of lazy slobs who are basket weavers when that is so far from the truth.

I agree with with what you are saying.

But from a hiring company point of view, we still have the extra cost of sponsoring an H1B visas, which drives up the cost.

It will always be better for the bottom line to hire an entry level IT staff that is not on a H1B visa.
The reason companies are paying the extra cost is because the don't have the skilled employees/applicants to hire at entry level IT positions.

And yet they don't, why? Because the pay is beneath what is required to live and pay student loans. That is the ultimate catch 22 of many us millennials. I got lucky, VERY lucky to escape it and had to live in BFE for years but I was grateful to even get a shot which rarely people my age do.

 

[robbyx]

Again, ********. There are plenty of mechanical engineers out there who would jump at the opportunity. The reason why there is an educational divide is because traditional school was never intended to be the HR training department for Apple. You got that training paid for by someone and it wasn't in school. That either came from your employer or the military, the breakdown is that now that labor is so cheap because of people using H1bs why bother training anyone? It's cheaper to import it elsewhere and is fundamentally dismantling the country.

Are you kidding? Tech companies used to teach their engineers how to be engineers? They just hired people with no skills and trained them as needed? Are you serious???

No. You went to college (or, as you point out, the military), got training, developed skills, and only then did you get a job.

This has nothing to do with it being cheaper to import. It has everything to do with a lack of qualified candidates. The real issue is our country's unwillingness to pay for higher education. Many of these foreign workers come from countries with free or very affordable higher education. We don't invest in our people, which is why we are a nation of debtors, a nation where half the population doesn't make enough money to even pay taxes. And you can't blame that on immigration. Most of those people not even paying taxes are homegrown Americans.

Leaving low-skilled immigrants out of the equation (because that's a different set of issues and we might find more to agree upon there), when it comes to highly skilled workers, there aren't enough qualified people out there in this country. If we really want to put America first, we need to prioritize and PAY FOR education. A well educated nation is a strong and resilient nation. A poorly educated nation of debtors is extremely fragile.

 

[mikecorp]

??????????????????????????????????????????
TRUMP GETS VISAS FOR 70 FOREIGN WORKERS AT MAR-A-LAGO DESPITE 'HIRE AMERICAN' PLEDGE
BY HARRIET SINCLAIR ON 11/5/17 AT 4:29 PM

U.S.DONALD TRUMPMAR-A-LAGOBUY AMERICAN


The Trump Organization has secured visas to hire 70 foreign workers who will be employed during the 2017-18 season as maids, cooks, and servers.

Despite running on an ‘American jobs’ ticket, Trump’s former company – which is currently run by his sons Donald Jr. and Eric – has opted to take on foreign labor at the president’s Mar-a-Lago resort, which is dubbed the ‘Winter White House.’

Trump has previously defended hiring workers from outside the U.S., stating back in 2016 when he was questioned by Senator Marco Rubio about hiring foreign labor: “It’s very, very hard to get people. Other hotels do the exact same thing.”

Please do your research properly and stop reading crab.

 

[rjohnstone]

I agree with with what you are saying.

But from a hiring company point of view, we still have the extra cost of sponsoring an H1B visas, which drives up the cost.

It will always be better for the bottom line to hire an entry level IT staff that is not on a H1B visa.
The reason companies are paying the extra cost is because the don't have the skilled employees/applicants to hire at entry level IT positions.

We don't hire them... we bring them in as contractors. The contracting firm holds the liability for sponsoring them.
Large firms like Tata (TCS) and ComSys can afford to do this by way of volume. We can bring them in cheaper this way and we used to do it all the time.
Even with the contract overhead, they were still cheaper than an FTE.

We only hire/sponsor H1-B holders for high level positions where their expertise is in fact unique. That is a long term investment in a person and the project they will be working on. We have some very brilliant engineers come in through the program.
H1-B program is a good idea if the fraud can be eliminated.

 

[KdParker]

Oh come the **** on, you and I both know full well that you don't just waltz into a company and immediately have everything you need to work on whatever project is asked of you. There are SOPs, MOPs and other addendum that each specific company has and if the entry level positions were not crammed full of these people maybe they wouldn't have such an issue promoting within?

I beg to differ.

If you are technically sound and not lazy, you have everything you need.

You now that IT is not like a manufacturing job or anything. And what you call SOPs/MOPs is kinda the same at all companies with talking about IT. You C#, JAVA, etc... compiles the same way on all platforms and you log into oracle, SQL server, etc... databases the same way.

 

[sentential]

Are you kidding? Tech companies used to teach their engineers how to be engineers? They just hired people with no skills and trained them as needed? Are you serious???

No. You went to college (or, as you point out, the military), got training, developed skills, and only then did you get a job.

This has nothing to do with it being cheaper to import. It has everything to do with a lack of qualified candidates. The real issue is our country's unwillingness to pay for higher education. Many of these foreign workers come from countries with free or very affordable higher education. We don't invest in our people, which is why we are a nation of debtors, a nation where half the population doesn't make enough money to even pay taxes. And you can't blame that on immigration. Most of those people not even paying taxes are homegrown Americans.

Leaving low-skilled immigrants out of the equation (because that's a different set of issues and we might find more to agree upon there), when it comes to highly skilled workers, there aren't enough qualified people out there in this country. If we really want to put America first, we need to prioritize and PAY FOR education. A well educated nation is a strong and resilient nation. A poorly educated nation of debtors is extremely fragile.

You and many others are missing the point. The argument painted in the media is that the tech world is filled with knuckledraggers who are incapable of thought. That is an outright lie, there is *TONS* of slack from STEM grads, I was one of them and I took a variety of retail jobs because I graduated when TARP was passed. This whole belief that we are so lacking in talented engineers is wrong, dead wrong.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

There is TONS of slack in the IT labor force, the company I work for just let go about 5,000 people and rehired H1bs to replace them. This issue is absolutely rampant and thank god something is being done about it!

I beg to differ.

If you are technically sound and not lazy, you have everything you need.

You now that IT is not like a manufacturing job or anything. And what you call SOPs/MOPs is kinda the same at all companies with talking about IT. You C#, JAVA, etc... compiles the same way on all platforms and you log into oracle, SQL server, etc... databases the same way.

Why hire a kid from the USA when you can get one from Bangalore or Vietnam for pennies? All those jobs are easily done remotely and where I work are routinely done so.

 

[hudson1]

If your going to hire someone based on where they come from then yes! If your going to turn down someone for a job because they come from the Middle East or where ever then yes that is racist! It’s not about where someone comes from it’s about whether they can do the job or not.

This is entirely wrong. The US is a nation that has full say in who is allowed to enter and work here and that's the way it works in every other nation, too.

 

[jav6454]

Oh come the **** on, you and I both know full well that you don't just waltz into a company and immediately have everything you need to work on whatever project is asked of you. There are SOPs, MOPs and other addendum that each specific company has and if the entry level positions were not crammed full of these people maybe they wouldn't have such an issue promoting within?

I agree with the SOPs, MOPs and all alike. Why? Because at my company, it is required that you know these. However, your manager is tasked with tracking your learning while performaning work and being productive. You aren't expected for the first month to be 100% functional, but you are expected to learn and adapt. However, how are you going to do that if your foundation is based on basket weaving and not science and math?

You're completely missing the point companies purposefully put ridiculously specific requirement on a great number of these jobs that no one, even a good engineer could fill or could afford to do and then use that as justification to move the job to an H1b holder. That's the issue.

People outside of this want to paint a picture of a bunch of lazy slobs who are basket weavers when that is so far from the truth.

And yet they don't, why? Because the pay is beneath what is required to live and pay student loans. it is the ultimate catch 22.

How so? Let's look back at my old job (not my current one).

Qaulity Printed Circuit Board Assembly Engineer. Only someone who knows:

• Surface Mount Technology knowledge
• Certified SMTA engineering license
• Electrical Engineer degree or similar
• RFID technology knowledge
• Six Sigma Black Belt
• IPC-600 knowledge

Now, all those require a strong engineering background. I fail to see how someone doing Basket Weaving is going to be trained into that. You can't. At most, you'll be given training modules for SMTA or Six Sigma, not both. That's it.

Why are those requirements needed? Because you have customers waiting for a service level that can't be offered if you are training someone from scratch. It is not feasible to do so.

 

[wlossw]

What is your point? H1B visas are paid the prevailing wage for the market, so there is not any undercutting of wages in this case.

My point is they should have to pay more than the prevailing rate. To discourage the hiring of foreign workers.

 

[citysnaps]

Precisely. All the "Hire American" comments in here are mainly from those not in corporations heavily dependent on qualified engineers. Our oldest is a CH E for a Global Corporation working in Speciality Materials. They have over a hundred Engineering Positions open. They compete with multiple corporations for every applicant including the H1-B people they have. They are a HIGHLY desired employer.

There are simply not enough educated American's to take these positions. Now, I do agree H1-B selections can be taken advantage of through lower wages and such. I do not support that. However, people in these threads talking about killing the H1-B so American's can simply step in need a reality check on the failures of our education system.

Yeah, for sure on that... Competition for engineers is brutal in Silicon Valley right now. That drives up wages, which is good. But it also makes it difficult for small startups to adequately staff engineers. It's really tough competing for engineering talent against Apple/Facebook/google/etc, who tend to snag the brightest.

Back in 2000, during the last tech boom, one large tech company was offering BMWs as a hire-on inducement. Jeeez... And along with that office space leases were through the roof. It's really tough when you're a 10 person startup.

 

[KdParker]

We don't hire them... we bring them in as contractors. The contracting firm holds the liability for sponsoring them.
Large firms like Tata (TCS) and ComSys can afford to do this by way of volume. We can bring them in cheaper this way and we used to do it all the time.
Even with the contract overhead, they were still cheaper than an FTE.

We only hire/sponsor H1-B holders for high level positions where their expertise is in fact unique. That is a long term investment in a person and the project they will be working on. We have some very brilliant engineers come in through the program.
H1-B program is a good idea if the fraud can be eliminated.

Then those companies are wasting money on the contractors. Bringing in FTEs is better in the long term for cost and productivity. Any company interested in ROI investment in FTEs and entry level is key.
[doublepost=1516299514][/doublepost]

My point is they should have to pay more than the prevailing rate. To discourage the hiring of foreign workers.

They do.

There is a cost on top the wages to sponsor and H1B visa.

 

[Dave245]

This is entirely wrong. The US is a nation that has full say in who is allowed to enter and work here and that's the way it works in every other nation, too.

That’s not 100% true, EU countries have to accept a certain amount under the “Free movement” but that’s not the point I’m trying to make, it is disgusting that countries should be able to turn people away because they are from a certain country or are a certain colour. What if it was your family?