Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.6.2 Build 10C535 to Developers

[ae3265]

10.6.1. hasn't been as buggy as some make out - the majority of the problems sit squarely on the shoulders of lazy developers who couldn't be figged adequately testing their software or following the guides that Apple provided.

While I agree that SL hasn't been that bad for me in terms of "bugginess", I do want to quibble about about the "lazy developers" comment.

I'm coming from a Unix background, mostly Solaris and I gotta say that I've been pretty spoiled by Sun's backward compatibility. It's relatively rare that a major OS version upgrade just plain breaks all kinds of things. Hell, I've run binaries compiled on 2.5.1 and run them on successfully on 10. In the Solaris world, the one issue I've run into with 32 versus 64 bit kernels and booting and whatnot has been the tun/tap driver for openvpn. Other than that, for the most part, I boot 64 bit and run whatever I need to.

Apple, OTOH, appears to have a culture of pretty significant changes without regard to backward compatibility. Mind you, I'm relatively new to OSX, having started with Tiger, but the upgrade from Tiger to Leopard, and Leopard to Snow Leopard has required significant time. Solaris, for instance, introduced SMF and the old rc scripts continue to work as usual while I've learned SMF and migrated to that.

I've had to update shell scripts, re-compile software, figure out new ways to get things I need running at boot time working, wait for developers to figure out their problems and get new versions of software. And so on....it's a real pain if you use your OS as extensively as I do.

Thank god I do not have to maintain OS X in a production server environment! As much as I use my macs as servers for my own purposes, I cannot imagine all the crap one has to go through to upgrade and worry about databases, application servers, etc.

I just spend 2 days with the developer of Bonjour Mounter helping him figure out an issue with a new version of his software. Thankfully, he was very quick to respond to my initial inquiries and I was able to run tests and provide him logs and crash reports so he could figure out what the problem was. Turned out, it was something Apple changed, and he's had to create and maintain 2 versions, one for 10.5, one for 10.6.

I love my macs, and I'm reasonably happy with what OS X does. However, purely from an a system admin's point of view, it's not the most advanced OS in the world. Both Solaris and AIX have some really kick-ass features. But it is pretty darn snazzy for a desktop OS. It's done a much better job of integrating Unix with a GUI than anything else out there. OTOH, launchd is a mess. SMF blows it away from day one.

But, IMO, they could do a lot more to make things easier on folks as they migrate to new versions. For the most part, I feel for a lot of developers.

Mind you, some of the larger companies have really dropped the ball on staying up with SL. And that's disappointing as they have a lot more resources than the smaller guys, and it's been the smaller guys who have been busting their butts keeping up.

 

[macintoshtoffy]

While I agree that SL hasn't been that bad for me in terms of "bugginess", I do want to quibble about about the "lazy developers" comment.

I'm coming from a Unix background, mostly Solaris and I gotta say that I've been pretty spoiled by Sun's backward compatibility. It's relatively rare that a major OS version upgrade just plain breaks all kinds of things. Hell, I've run binaries compiled on 2.5.1 and run them on successfully on 10. In the Solaris world, the one issue I've run into with 32 versus 64 bit kernels and booting and whatnot has been the tun/tap driver for openvpn. Other than that, for the most part, I boot 64 bit and run whatever I need to.

Apple, OTOH, appears to have a culture of pretty significant changes without regard to backward compatibility. Mind you, I'm relatively new to OSX, having started with Tiger, but the upgrade from Tiger to Leopard, and Leopard to Snow Leopard has required significant time. Solaris, for instance, introduced SMF and the old rc scripts continue to work as usual while I've learned SMF and migrated to that.

I've had to update shell scripts, re-compile software, figure out new ways to get things I need running at boot time working, wait for developers to figure out their problems and get new versions of software. And so on....it's a real pain if you use your OS as extensively as I do.

Thank god I do not have to maintain OS X in a production server environment! As much as I use my macs as servers for my own purposes, I cannot imagine all the crap one has to go through to upgrade and worry about databases, application servers, etc.

I just spend 2 days with the developer of Bonjour Mounter helping him figure out an issue with a new version of his software. Thankfully, he was very quick to respond to my initial inquiries and I was able to run tests and provide him logs and crash reports so he could figure out what the problem was. Turned out, it was something Apple changed, and he's had to create and maintain 2 versions, one for 10.5, one for 10.6.

I love my macs, and I'm reasonably happy with what OS X does. However, purely from an a system admin's point of view, it's not the most advanced OS in the world. Both Solaris and AIX have some really kick-ass features. But it is pretty darn snazzy for a desktop OS. It's done a much better job of integrating Unix with a GUI than anything else out there. OTOH, launchd is a mess. SMF blows it away from day one.

But, IMO, they could do a lot more to make things easier on folks as they migrate to new versions. For the most part, I feel for a lot of developers.

Mind you, some of the larger companies have really dropped the ball on staying up with SL. And that's disappointing as they have a lot more resources than the smaller guys, and it's been the smaller guys who have been busting their butts keeping up.

But that is your job, you are a developer, your job as a developer is to maintain software, provide updates and look after your customers. When a new operating system is released, you get on your skates and start work on supporting that new operating system. Customers don't pay for your software because they feel sorry for you or wish to pay for your kids school fees - they pay you for your software and for you to maintain it.

Does compatibility break? yes, of course but that is a fact of life. Grass is green, the sky is blue and compatibility occasionally is broken as a result of major leaps forwards. What major leaps forward has OpenSolaris made? still the same crappy USB stack that is retarded to low performance, the same horrible audio stack, wireless stack that is ancient and of date, hardware support that is pathetic and the speed of the system over all is crap. To compare OpenSolaris to Mac OS X, quite frankly, you lost any credibility.

Mac OS X is a fast moving, quickly evolving operating system that is leaping to meet the needs of end users - OpenSolaris on the other hand is a bloated out of date POS that is a monumental joke on anything other than the largest server configurations. The day when I can load OpenSolaris onto a laptop with decent performance, top hardware support and good battery/power management - then I'll care about how great its backwards compatibility is.

One can only look at Microsoft as the result of this backwards compatibility fetish; to call backwards compatibility an asset is like saying a rusted car out the front of a house on bricks is akin to an asset that add values to the house.

 

[Data]

SIL3132 drivers for e-sata cards fix ?

Ever since SL when i attach any drive via my Lacie e-state pci card i get kernel panics when i try to use it i get a kernel panic, i found out that it is not just the lacie card but all cards that use the SIL 3132 driver, eny word on if this is fixed in 10.6.2 ?

 

[VoR]

Mac OS X is a fast moving, quickly evolving operating system that is leaping to meet the needs of end users - OpenSolaris on the other hand is a bloated out of date POS that is a monumental joke on anything other than the largest server configurations.

I'm looking forward to the phoronix osx/ubuntu/opensolaris benchmark comparison that'll be out soon. You check this sort of thing and have seen previous comparisons? Or do you believe 'benchmarks don't show real world performance' is the best way out of these articles?

One can only look at Microsoft as the result of this backwards compatibility fetish; to call backwards compatibility an asset is like saying a rusted car out the front of a house on bricks is akin to an asset that add values to the house.

Right...

 

[Rocketman]

This is wrong. Bugs in the Frameworks can do exactly this.

The crashes are bugs in the API. IF they were problems in the 3rd party software(being Leopard compatible, but not Snow Leopard-ready), then all Apple needed to do was create a new Version of the Framework for SL apps to link to. Older apps would link to the old version, and new apps would get the new version. It's real simple. Since that is not what has happened, it is down to API bugs. Those bugs could be long standing, and have suddenly been fixed, causing apps to fail. Or, they are current bugs, and will be fixed in future versions of Snow Leopard. But either way, only Apple-error can cause the widespread app crashes that are happening on Snow Leopard.

I have never understood how a marketing claim of less disc space was more important than preserving a decade of programming and debugging labor.

I know Apple has a mantra of throw out the legacy for the new, but can you please limit that to pre 10.x and handtop devices?

Desktops (and laptop primaries) have legacy applications and more importantly, legacy user needs and habits.

It's actually not all about the computer. The computer is a tool for an end user. It is the end user who has the credit card.

Rocketman

 

[tibi08]

No TRIM support for SSD users then?

 

[jonnysods]

Looking forward to this update

I could do with a lot less beach balling than I'm seeing on all my computers since moving to SL.

 

[MTShipp]

Does anyone know if 10.6.2 fixes the Error 109 with Time Machine? That was the only problem with SL that made me roll back to 10.5.8.

 

[TheSpaz]

Nope. It's super frustrating. Many sites that use Flash cause it to crash. I've tried everything that everyone has recommended. I've uninstalled & reinstalled the latest flash, I've repaired permissions, I've removed other Safari Plugins, etc. What's even more frustrating is that sites that crash my Safari work fine if I log in as another user. I cannot figure it out for the life of me. I hope 10.6.2 fixes this junk.

I had to stop using safari and switch to firefox after 10.6.1 !!
I can't wait anymore... it was good before, but right now is awful... I can't believe they ruined such a good user experience

It crashes probably 2-3 times a day for me, so it's really not that far-fetched.

I know a guy who is having weird Safari glitches with his tabs, but I'm running Snow Leopard also and do not have the glitches he's experiencing. He made a new user and the problem went away. I had him remove all third party Safari plugins and that didn't help. Ultimately, we couldn't figure out why his particular user account was doing that.

Perhaps there's other third party software installed that is causing bad behavior. My Safari has crashed once since installing Snow Leopard on the day it came out.

 

[Bubba Satori]

I could do with a lot less beach balling than I'm seeing on all my computers since moving to SL.

After Leopard's 300 amazing new features, Snow Leopard was supposed to be all about speed and reliabilty, while just the opposite seems to have happened. Has the reality distortion field turned into an unstoppable cosmic force ?

 

[iBug2]

After Leopard's 300 amazing new features, Snow Leopard was supposed to be all about speed and reliabilty, while just the opposite seems to have happened. Has the reality distortion field turned into an unstoppable cosmic force ?

Not really. SL K64 has shown up to 30% performance increase in real world applications compared to Leopard. The only applications which didn't see much change are Open GL based ones. That's because of the fail drivers on Snow Leopard. Blame ATI and Nvidia, not Apple.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Not really. SL K64 has shown up to 30% performance increase in real world applications compared to Leopard. The only applications which didn't see much change are Open GL based ones. That's because of the fail drivers on Snow Leopard. Blame ATI and Nvidia, not Apple.

Maybe I've fallen into the error of extrapolating a trend from the myriad prolems people are reporting on the forums against the good experiences that the majority of users are having that don't get reported here.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Ever since SL when i attach any drive via my Lacie e-state pci card i get kernel panics when i try to use it i get a kernel panic, i found out that it is not just the lacie card but all cards that use the SIL 3132 driver, eny word on if this is fixed in 10.6.2 ?

When researching cards and enclosures, I came across this. 32-bit and beta, but it might be worth a try.

 

[nefan65]

Mail

My ONLY beef with SL is Mail, and it's crashes. Without warning it'll just crash, and I get the "Sending to Apple" thing. There's no pattern, or anything. Just a crash; weird. iCal did a couple of times, but Mail happens at least a few times a week.

 

[Data]

When researching cards and enclosures, I came across this. 32-bit and beta, but it might be worth a try.

Ty for the tip Carl, if 10.6.2 does not fix it ill be sure to try that.

I'm also wondering if i should be looking at apple for the issue or to Sillicon Image to fix the problem, i think Sillycon is the maker of the driver so its probably them who have to fix it, maybe ill send another email to Lacie to who sell the cards with that driver.

Another option would be to buy another e-sata card like the one from G-Tech, but i can't find any were wich driver they use, if it's the same one it will have the same problem.

 

[Warcraft Tauren]

if people are starting to receive their mighty mouse-thenill bet Fri Sat

How so?


They released a separate update for that which tells me that the 10.6.2 will take at least two weeks, if not more. I could be wrong though.


Also, I want an update that is not buggy, so the longer it takes the better.

 

[baryon]

Wow, you guys seem to have a ******** of problems with snow leopard. Am I the only one not having any serious glitches, besides some safari 4 beachballing which I had also with Leopard?

For me Snow Leopard is as stable as Leopard (past 10.5.5) has been.

Thats what I thought, my system was incredibly stable with Snow Leopard until a few days ago when I got a Kernel Panic, and the next day I got a total system freeze which is exactly like the Kernel Panic but without the black message... All of this while doing completely different things, one during a Final Cut Pro render and switching Spaced, another while I was typing an essay in Pages... I had to take a photo of the screen to save the document I was working on!

 

[Data]

Thats what I thought, my system was incredibly stable with Snow Leopard until a few days ago when I got a Kernel Panic, and the next day I got a total system freeze which is exactly like the Kernel Panic but without the black message... All of this while doing completely different things, one during a Final Cut Pro render and switching Spaced, another while I was typing an essay in Pages... I had to take a photo of the screen to save the document I was working on!

Using any device like an e-sata drive that uses the sil 3132 driver thats what causes these problems for me.

 

[Eric S.]

So the development of Leopard's service packs has been stopped?

Most likely Security Updates only from now on. That's Apple's SOP.

I dont think so. Wasnt 10.4.11 released after leopard was launched?

Three weeks after. That's the only time Apple has done that (released a point update for the previous OS after the new OS was out), and 10.4.11 was planned and nearly ready when Leopard debuted.

Something else I noticed is the boot time in SL. In 10.5.8, when I turn my macbook on, the screen goes gray and the Apple logo appears instantly. Now with 10.6.1, the Apple logo takes around 15-20 seconds to appear. Before my boot time was around 35 seconds, now is more than a minute.

I've recently noticed that my Macbook with 10.5.8 seems to take longer to boot up. More like the times you're reporting for 10.6.1.

 

[OutSpoken]

For the love of God, I just hope this fixes all the crap that's been going on in Safari. It literally crashes 5-10 times per day.

I really miss the stability of Leopard. I hope 10.6.2 takes us back there.

5-10 times a day!!

are u kidding ?

My problem isnt Safari crashing but the fact my mbp to seems to keep dropping WiFi connection whenever I use Safari...please Apple fix that!

 

[star-affinity]

Nope. It's super frustrating. Many sites that use Flash cause it to crash. I've tried everything that everyone has recommended. I've uninstalled & reinstalled the latest flash, I've repaired permissions, I've removed other Safari Plugins, etc. What's even more frustrating is that sites that crash my Safari work fine if I log in as another user. I cannot figure it out for the life of me. I hope 10.6.2 fixes this junk.

If it works fine in a different account it can't be the OS's fault, can it?
I doubt 10.6.2 will fix your issue, but I'm not saying I'm sure it won't.

Anyway, if the problems wasn't in the plug-ins for Safari I would check the fonts. Have you added any extra fonts (check Font Book.app) to the user account where the crashes occur? It could also be some cache problem or perhaps a problem with the com.apple.safari.plist.

Whatever it is Safari hasn't crashed for me once since Snow Leopard (nope, it hasn't – just checked the log) and that's even with the Flash plug-in installed.

 

[kroko]

I know a guy who is having weird Safari glitches with his tabs, but I'm running Snow Leopard also and do not have the glitches he's experiencing. He made a new user and the problem went away. I had him remove all third party Safari plugins and that didn't help. Ultimately, we couldn't figure out why his particular user account was doing that. (..)

Is he using Logitech? Take a look at this discussion.

 

[Amdahl]

But that is your job, you are a developer, your job as a developer is to maintain software, provide updates and look after your customers. When a new operating system is released, you get on your skates and start work on supporting that new operating system. Customers don't pay for your software because they feel sorry for you or wish to pay for your kids school fees - they pay you for your software and for you to maintain it.

Excellent speech. I hope Apple reads it.

Does compatibility break? yes, of course but that is a fact of life. Grass is green, the sky is blue and compatibility occasionally is broken as a result of major leaps forwards.

Only if the operating system developer is lazy, or wants to break that compatibility, say, to obsolete older products and generate new sales.

To compare OpenSolaris to Mac OS X, quite frankly, you lost any credibility.

Solaris is ten times the operating system that Mac OS X is. And it is such, because as the previous poster elaborated, they have serious commitment to their customers who have used their product for decades. Apple has zero commitment to prior customers, or prior products.

One can only look at Microsoft as the result of this backwards compatibility fetish; to call backwards compatibility an asset is like saying a rusted car out the front of a house on bricks is akin to an asset that add values to the house.

You are confusing bad design -- carried forward -- with a problem of backward compatibility.

 

[Amdahl]

No TRIM support for SSD users then?

Do you REALLY want OS 10.6 telling your SSD what it should erase?

I have never understood how a marketing claim of less disc space was more important than preserving a decade of programming and debugging labor.

Apple is a master at selling the sizzle, not the steak. Nobody buys a Mac because they need a solid platform for long term production needs; they buy it for Teh Shiny!

 

[Peace]

This is wrong. Bugs in the Frameworks can do exactly this.


This is right.

No, they just need a beta test.

The crashes are bugs in the API. IF they were problems in the 3rd party software(being Leopard compatible, but not Snow Leopard-ready), then all Apple needed to do was create a new Version of the Framework for SL apps to link to. Older apps would link to the old version, and new apps would get the new version. It's real simple. Since that is not what has happened, it is down to API bugs. Those bugs could be long standing, and have suddenly been fixed, causing apps to fail. Or, they are current bugs, and will be fixed in future versions of Snow Leopard. But either way, only Apple-error can cause the widespread app crashes that are happening on Snow Leopard.

Actually there's a known Apple bug in 10.6.1, maybe 10.6 too, where somehow a save dialog can crash. I've seen a few crash reports about it specifically for the project I'm working on, and based off that googling shows a lot of other people experiencing the same crash in other apps such as Safari, Mail, FCP, VLC, etc. Bugs in the frameworks are one of the biggies since they can affect any app. I've also seen plenty of bugs due to Quartz-related frameworks, and I'm currently looking into the possibility of an Nvidia+SL bug on the unibodys. Not fun

My God, someone in the news forum that actually knows what they're talking about... that makes like 20 out of... 1000+

I didn't want to post this but I will since people seem to think only Apple can fix a bug by a 3rd party vendor.

This is one example..I have more but will not get into that since it does go against my NDA.

Please think this over again.
This is one example of a bug I have registered with radar.

Please look at it and understand Apple does NOT fix all bugs that are caused by 3rd party vendors.