Much Ado
macrumors 68000
I beg your pardon?
Apple Unable to Find iPhone Partner in Europe?
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I beg your pardon?
MMS really is the easiest way of sending a picture/video/sound to another phone, that's why it's popular. MMS - it just works.
And the UK is not a good representative for the EU in terms of mobile phones. I happen to live in both the UK and in two other EU countries. Mobile telephony is terribly expensive in the UK, with our without allowance.
In one of the other EU countries that I also live in I pay €55 monthly for a flat rate plan. That is an all-inclusive plan that covers all the calls I care and dare to make to landlines and other mobile phones, regarldess of the network, in that country. All the texts (that's the British term for SMS's) and MMS's that I can send are also included. And calls to the UK are only €0.03 a minute. While in the UK, I can receive as well as call that country for free. Data is not included, but a 1 GB data option (we're talking standard 3G here) is €21 monthly, and a flat rate, unlimited 3.6 Mbps HSDPA data option is €43 monthly.
I mainly use my UK T-Mobile contract for domestic calls while in the UK.
Another drawback of the UK operators is that it's impossible to get a contract without being forced to also take a phone. I would rather take a contract on no or a very short (say, 3 months maximum) term and buy a phone separately. Right now, I take whatever phone I can get at no extra charge and sell it on eBay (or keep it as a spare just in case). The SIM is all I really want and I put it in a phone of my choice that I usually buy unbranded. Nokia has a nice web shop of their own in the UK.
EuroMacpert
macrumors newbie
The UK is different when it comes to mobile phones to the rest of Europe. In the UK, almost all phones are sold with a sim card either on contract or pay as you-go. Most phones are locked in the UK to one network- but you can easily get them unlocked.
Vodafone, Orange, O2 are the main providers. Phones are sold through their own retail stores and third party stores like The Carphone Warehouse.
In the rest of Europe phones are sold unlocked and SIMS sold seperately mainly. This is where the problem is.
Vodafone, will probbaly get the European/UK contract. They are the largest network in the world (source: Wikipeida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodafone) This would give Apple the best imapct in the European market to start with.
The iPhone has more chance of making it to the UK because of this fact. However, Apple will not get the chance to share in profits from contracts- the phone will need to be sold at full retail price. If a network gave in to this- Nokia and other companies will ask for the same in future and then it will become a free for all. Reasons why Apple won't win include"
1. The market is too segemneted compared to the US
2. The market is better developed than the US
3. The phone manufactures- Nokia etc. are established and have a good, solid market base
Interestingly, if Apple don't take a profit sharing agreement in Europe, what happens if the American cell phone provider will say- "why aren't the European provider having to give you profits from contracts?" That would put the whole iPhone under threat- period.
If Apple set a fixed reatil price of £350- networks in Europe would say yes to Apple and so would consumers.
Vodafone, Orange, O2 are the main providers. Phones are sold through their own retail stores and third party stores like The Carphone Warehouse.
In the rest of Europe phones are sold unlocked and SIMS sold seperately mainly. This is where the problem is.
Vodafone, will probbaly get the European/UK contract. They are the largest network in the world (source: Wikipeida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodafone) This would give Apple the best imapct in the European market to start with.
The iPhone has more chance of making it to the UK because of this fact. However, Apple will not get the chance to share in profits from contracts- the phone will need to be sold at full retail price. If a network gave in to this- Nokia and other companies will ask for the same in future and then it will become a free for all. Reasons why Apple won't win include"
1. The market is too segemneted compared to the US
2. The market is better developed than the US
3. The phone manufactures- Nokia etc. are established and have a good, solid market base
Interestingly, if Apple don't take a profit sharing agreement in Europe, what happens if the American cell phone provider will say- "why aren't the European provider having to give you profits from contracts?" That would put the whole iPhone under threat- period.
If Apple set a fixed reatil price of £350- networks in Europe would say yes to Apple and so would consumers.
michelepri
macrumors 6502a
Interest fading in Europe
Judging from what I hear and read here in Europe, interest is fading for the Iphone. Yes the features are impressive, but people say it should come out in October, or maybe it won't ever come out. If Apple makes its phone available ibefore December, it's still too late. Most people believe that 6 months is a long time, plenty of time for other companies to respond with alternatives. Also, because we are not sure we're getting the phone, many have started taking a good look at the features and interface and forget the hype. Essentially, the view is that the phone looks very good but it's really not a very good phone. No 3G, low resolution screen, no GPS, low resolution camera, nobody knows for sure that the touch screen is good for typing...
the only impressive feature is the 3D scrolling of albums in Itunes. But most people are happy with an Ipod so I can't imagine they would sign crazy 2 year agreements and pay a huge price just to use a bad phone with 1990s technology which is made interesting by some animation effects.
When you try to sell a gadget of this type, whose merits depend more on marketing and hype than actual product value, you have to be fast. Make sure people jump to get your product without giving them time to think. If they have 1 year to think about it they eventually realize that it's really not such a good deal. And competition will come back and possibly kick ass. I can't imagine that Sony Ericsson won't introduce soon a device that would make the Iphone look obsolete.
Judging from what I hear and read here in Europe, interest is fading for the Iphone. Yes the features are impressive, but people say it should come out in October, or maybe it won't ever come out. If Apple makes its phone available ibefore December, it's still too late. Most people believe that 6 months is a long time, plenty of time for other companies to respond with alternatives. Also, because we are not sure we're getting the phone, many have started taking a good look at the features and interface and forget the hype. Essentially, the view is that the phone looks very good but it's really not a very good phone. No 3G, low resolution screen, no GPS, low resolution camera, nobody knows for sure that the touch screen is good for typing...
the only impressive feature is the 3D scrolling of albums in Itunes. But most people are happy with an Ipod so I can't imagine they would sign crazy 2 year agreements and pay a huge price just to use a bad phone with 1990s technology which is made interesting by some animation effects.
When you try to sell a gadget of this type, whose merits depend more on marketing and hype than actual product value, you have to be fast. Make sure people jump to get your product without giving them time to think. If they have 1 year to think about it they eventually realize that it's really not such a good deal. And competition will come back and possibly kick ass. I can't imagine that Sony Ericsson won't introduce soon a device that would make the Iphone look obsolete.
What? .....are you having a wack attack? 480x320 at 160ppi aint low resolution, very few phones have a GPS receiver, and the touch screen typing will work easily as good as t9 predictive once you get used to it. The camera will be as good (or very close to it) as the majority of other phones; megapixels dont mean much when it comes to camera phones..... The only thing you're right about is 3G, and that will most likely be a feature when it gets a European launch, or in the next rev.
emotion
macrumors 68040
I think you are confusing 'features' with 'function'.
The hype surrounding the iPhone is about how it works and how this is a step change for the way a phone works.
The feature list isn't as fully packed as many of us want (myself included) but that doesn't mean it doesn't stand a chance of being the slickest phone you've ever used (or not, as the case may be).
I hear what you say though. My plan is to get an SE W960i when they come out (with data package so I can use my laptop through that fat HSDPA 3G connection) and then wait the year out on that while Apple get their act together (and I mean so they have 3G and have gone to a Rev. B, I don't fancy being a beta hardware tester).
SiliconAddict
macrumors 603
I said it before and I will say it again: Apple's overall attitude is really starting to cheese me off. It isn't to the point of me switching but we've defiantly hit MS mid 2000 levels of arrogance. Frakly at this point I want to see the iPhone fail. Knock the wind out of their sails just a bit.
I'm going to be honest here. If someone offered an iPhone to me for free, because of the above, I would pass. I thought it was suppose to be think Different not think ***hat?
I'm going to be honest here. If someone offered an iPhone to me for free, because of the above, I would pass. I thought it was suppose to be think Different not think ***hat?
SiliconAddict
macrumors 603
I hate to break this to you but for the size of the screen it Is low res. That's a little bit above 1/4 vga.
No MMS?! Is this true?
That's bonkers. Sending a photo to someone else's phone is used all the time. Emailing it is no good when 99% of people you'd be sending it to don't bother (or can't) set email up on their phone.
If they try and push the phone out in Europe without things people take for granted here, it stands a much higher chance of failing. 3G is common-place now, by end of the year it will be even more so. I can see the iPhone slipping to next year in Europe with all this stuff still to resolve, giving competitors even longer to take the shine off the whole thing with competing products.
They should have got their ducks in line earlier and gone with a worldwide launch of a GSM/3G dual-compatible phone.
That's bonkers. Sending a photo to someone else's phone is used all the time. Emailing it is no good when 99% of people you'd be sending it to don't bother (or can't) set email up on their phone.
If they try and push the phone out in Europe without things people take for granted here, it stands a much higher chance of failing. 3G is common-place now, by end of the year it will be even more so. I can see the iPhone slipping to next year in Europe with all this stuff still to resolve, giving competitors even longer to take the shine off the whole thing with competing products.
They should have got their ducks in line earlier and gone with a worldwide launch of a GSM/3G dual-compatible phone.
Huh? Using normal definitions... Quarter VGA is 320x240 (76,800 pixels). VGA is 640x480 (307,200).
The iPhone is 480x320 (153,600 pixels). I wouldn't call 2x the number of pixels just "a little bit above" Quarter VGA nor would I classify a 160 DPI display as low res.
As a frame of reference the iPhone has a higher resolution display then the PSP (480x272).
So the reality is that for the physical dimensions of the screen the iPhone display resolution is rather good and in general better then any other phone on the market (at any price) at this time.
jwkay
macrumors regular
The new 3.5G network is already under testing here and according to plan will be opened to customers before the end of the year. Telenor also has it's own online music store for mobiles via 3G, offering 700 000 songs and over 20 000 music videos.
gnasher729
Suspended
So how does that compare in price and quality to the 10,000 song collection on my Mac, which I would hope can all be played on an iPhone without any cost and without any problems?
typerlover
macrumors regular
This sounds like a veteran in the mobile market. No need for you guys to get all upset at him. The iphone is not revolutionary in any fashion. Wow its an ipod that you can move with your fingers, tell me does that really give you that OMG I CANT BELIEVE ITS HAPPENING ITS A REVOLUTION feeling? No.
http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=3450&source=HOMETOP
Its got that fancy touch screen and you can slide covers around in the walkman software as well.
How about the full internet, not the fake internet, not the i'm a wanna be non apple produced so I'm going to fail internet? Yeah we all know the answer to that.
Oh but there is photos, where u can pinch and flick and dab and doodle and look at little Jeremy's acne. Yeah, this is a novelty. Of course having your photos around is handy for that 1/1000 of a time you are going to be showing someone.
How about that fancy old touchscreen eh? Gonna change the way them yanks use phones forever! Making phone calls sure won't be a problem, but hold your hands in the air with a pretend iphone in your hands. Now start pumping your thumbs pretending to type. Or you could just lay them against anything flat and try it out. It just feels ridiculous. Why haven't keyboards for computers, the most important input device for the world's most essential piece of tech switched to flat, touchless keys? Because it is ridiculous for working at length. But if you want the iPhone as a toy, then I'm sure it will be great.
emotion
macrumors 68040
Who got upset? I certainly didn't.
The reason computers have proper keyboards is for touch typing. People don't generally need that on a phone.
typerlover
macrumors regular
excuse me then, not upset, but "interested"
jwkay
macrumors regular
To be honest, I've not used it - but price wise it's cheaper than iTunes (7kr per song against iTunes' 8kr), and 10kr per music video. (iTunes Norway doesn't sell music videos at all.) They are DRM protected, though, but can "also be downloaded to your PC" (I guess it's a Windows Media solution, but don't have the info, sorry.)
Most of the mobiles on sale here support AAC, eAAC+, MP3, MP4 etc. so you can put your iTunes library on there - not as elegantly as with the iPhone, but can be done.
emotion
macrumors 68040
I replied, yes.
I hate to break this to you, but it has a higher pixel density than your MBP.
Attachments
There are no such laws for mobile providers.
Ok, back to the phone companies
I live in the Netherlands, which is one of the EU's most competitive phone markets. I also know that with Apple, most demands for partners usually have to do with protecting the user experience because that user experience is Apple's key differentiator. Put the two together and I think the anger of the providers lies in several things.
First thing: The Apple iPhone will mean a new business model and a new pricing plan just for this phone. Including a data subsription is more or less required for the user experience of the phone. The providers are used to making good money on data-traffic. Apple may want them to provide a flat-fee access to the internet to protect the user experience.
Second thing: Apple is probably not willing to lower the wholesale price of the phone for providers to promote it. Most providers 'subsidise' the phone (or rather, you do it for them through your monthly fee). Depending on the plan you buy, you either get the phone for little money or for free. With the iPhone, they would probably still have to charge something like EUR 499 even with a 2-year plan. And that goes against the user experience of the average customer (2-year expensive plan = free phone).
Third thing: Apple is probably not okay with 'branding' the software of the phone, which usually also means taking the user to the provider's portal first before they can go on he 'real' internet. Providers have paid big money setting up and marketing their portals. They make big money selling ringtones. Will the iPhone even accept ringtones?
Fourth thing: The expensive changes to the voicemail system should not be taken lightly. You don't want to spoil the experience of non-iPhone users, so the system has to become two systems or should be made phone-aware. That is a *huge* change. Voicemail systems are mission-critical applications people. Big bucks are involved in any change and several providers have invested heavily in making the current systems more user-friendly. And (of course!) they charge you for listening to your voicemails! Skipping voicemails is not beneficial for them.
Fifth thing: the providers in Europe have paid insane amounts of money (some of them almost went bankrupt) to get 3G licenses. We call it 'UMTS' over here (WCDMA). To make money on these 3G networks, they need phones to support video calling (requiring a camera on the front of the phone and software support of course) and the phone should support HSDPA for data use.
Sixth thing: If the phone does not use MMS, that's another revenue-stream cut off for the providers. This game is about making money, not about forking it over to Apple.
Technically, I think the iPhone has a chance if it will support GSM quad-band, WCDMA/HSDPA and gets a better camera. Sounds like a version 2 to me.
Phones in Europe are pretty sophisticated (my Nokia N95 has all features mentioned plus a GPS antenna built in, a 5 MP camera with H.264 video recording, Bluetooth audio streaming etc.) but Apple is simply better at making features available to users in a simple way. They are GUI and user-experience experts. If Nokia ever finds out that the user experience is the key difference, Apple is f****d.
Still, Nokia has been in this game for several decades and hasn't discovered that secret yet. I call it 'the curse of the engineers'.
I live in the Netherlands, which is one of the EU's most competitive phone markets. I also know that with Apple, most demands for partners usually have to do with protecting the user experience because that user experience is Apple's key differentiator. Put the two together and I think the anger of the providers lies in several things.
First thing: The Apple iPhone will mean a new business model and a new pricing plan just for this phone. Including a data subsription is more or less required for the user experience of the phone. The providers are used to making good money on data-traffic. Apple may want them to provide a flat-fee access to the internet to protect the user experience.
Second thing: Apple is probably not willing to lower the wholesale price of the phone for providers to promote it. Most providers 'subsidise' the phone (or rather, you do it for them through your monthly fee). Depending on the plan you buy, you either get the phone for little money or for free. With the iPhone, they would probably still have to charge something like EUR 499 even with a 2-year plan. And that goes against the user experience of the average customer (2-year expensive plan = free phone).
Third thing: Apple is probably not okay with 'branding' the software of the phone, which usually also means taking the user to the provider's portal first before they can go on he 'real' internet. Providers have paid big money setting up and marketing their portals. They make big money selling ringtones. Will the iPhone even accept ringtones?
Fourth thing: The expensive changes to the voicemail system should not be taken lightly. You don't want to spoil the experience of non-iPhone users, so the system has to become two systems or should be made phone-aware. That is a *huge* change. Voicemail systems are mission-critical applications people. Big bucks are involved in any change and several providers have invested heavily in making the current systems more user-friendly. And (of course!) they charge you for listening to your voicemails! Skipping voicemails is not beneficial for them.
Fifth thing: the providers in Europe have paid insane amounts of money (some of them almost went bankrupt) to get 3G licenses. We call it 'UMTS' over here (WCDMA). To make money on these 3G networks, they need phones to support video calling (requiring a camera on the front of the phone and software support of course) and the phone should support HSDPA for data use.
Sixth thing: If the phone does not use MMS, that's another revenue-stream cut off for the providers. This game is about making money, not about forking it over to Apple.
Technically, I think the iPhone has a chance if it will support GSM quad-band, WCDMA/HSDPA and gets a better camera. Sounds like a version 2 to me.
Phones in Europe are pretty sophisticated (my Nokia N95 has all features mentioned plus a GPS antenna built in, a 5 MP camera with H.264 video recording, Bluetooth audio streaming etc.) but Apple is simply better at making features available to users in a simple way. They are GUI and user-experience experts. If Nokia ever finds out that the user experience is the key difference, Apple is f****d.
Still, Nokia has been in this game for several decades and hasn't discovered that secret yet. I call it 'the curse of the engineers'.
BobtheTomato
macrumors newbie
I suspect the biggest problem the European Telcos have with Apple is that it is an American company. Microsoft, Apple, and Google have all committed the unpardonable sin of being on the left side of the Atlantic and so are subject to a never ending campaign of formal and informal harassment in the European market.
Works out OK, though. Maybe Apple will be able to fill all the orders here in less than two months.
BTW: I have family in Germany and the European Telcos are not even remotely customer friendly.
Works out OK, though. Maybe Apple will be able to fill all the orders here in less than two months.
BTW: I have family in Germany and the European Telcos are not even remotely customer friendly.
Competitors? What competitors?
I really have to scratch my head at some comments here. What's all this talk about competitors? The iPhone will simply not have any competitors any time soon. And that is not fanboy-talk.
Look at the facts: never has any 'competitor' (like Sony Ericsson, like Nokia) made a phone quite like the iPhone. Technically they can do it, it's no big deal. Patents or no patents. But the user interface... that's where every competitor simply falls flat. Cramming hardware into a tiny box is not what makes a usable phone!
Should Sony or Nokia want to build one; which OS can they use? The OS of the phone usually locks you into a certain style of interface. Nokia can't simply decide that the next version of Symbian will operate completely differently. The developers would go berserk. And what do you think the degrees of freedom are when the phone uses Windows Mobile? Exactly. None.
If your phone uses some other OS (like Samsung, Sharp etc.) - you're in for a treat. Because I cannot imagine that these interfaces have ever been field tested. My beautiful Sharp 902 (2 cameras, gorgeous display blabla) was a pain to use. Really, try placing a call to someone who just sent you an SMS. It takes 7 keypresses! Seven! Several dialog boxes asking me to select the number to dial - and they list only one number! Aaaargh! That's when I thought to myself, if this phone could have a GUI designed by Apple.
So when I see LG come out with a 'Prada' phone with a touchscreen and all the press goes: iPhone killer! - I just smile. Sorry, but LG does not have a tradition in interfaces. Never will that phone sell in big numbers. They even dare to charge big money for it! The Prada name probably. Still, it readies the market for expensive phones I guess.
Then there's keyboards. Can we look at the European phone market and then stop whining about keyboards? The really 'hot' phones (in terms of sales) have no keyboard other than the number keypad. The BlackBerry never really took off here. The phone Nokia is currently advertising heavily is sold on its design - stainless steel and black. It resembles... well, you know. No keyboard in sight. So maybe we should decide that keyboards on phones are more or less a US-thing. From my perspective, the European customer is not big on plastic keyboards and would probably rave at the one the iPhone provides.
I really have to scratch my head at some comments here. What's all this talk about competitors? The iPhone will simply not have any competitors any time soon. And that is not fanboy-talk.
Look at the facts: never has any 'competitor' (like Sony Ericsson, like Nokia) made a phone quite like the iPhone. Technically they can do it, it's no big deal. Patents or no patents. But the user interface... that's where every competitor simply falls flat. Cramming hardware into a tiny box is not what makes a usable phone!
Should Sony or Nokia want to build one; which OS can they use? The OS of the phone usually locks you into a certain style of interface. Nokia can't simply decide that the next version of Symbian will operate completely differently. The developers would go berserk. And what do you think the degrees of freedom are when the phone uses Windows Mobile? Exactly. None.
If your phone uses some other OS (like Samsung, Sharp etc.) - you're in for a treat. Because I cannot imagine that these interfaces have ever been field tested. My beautiful Sharp 902 (2 cameras, gorgeous display blabla) was a pain to use. Really, try placing a call to someone who just sent you an SMS. It takes 7 keypresses! Seven! Several dialog boxes asking me to select the number to dial - and they list only one number! Aaaargh! That's when I thought to myself, if this phone could have a GUI designed by Apple.
So when I see LG come out with a 'Prada' phone with a touchscreen and all the press goes: iPhone killer! - I just smile. Sorry, but LG does not have a tradition in interfaces. Never will that phone sell in big numbers. They even dare to charge big money for it! The Prada name probably. Still, it readies the market for expensive phones I guess.
Then there's keyboards. Can we look at the European phone market and then stop whining about keyboards? The really 'hot' phones (in terms of sales) have no keyboard other than the number keypad. The BlackBerry never really took off here. The phone Nokia is currently advertising heavily is sold on its design - stainless steel and black. It resembles... well, you know. No keyboard in sight. So maybe we should decide that keyboards on phones are more or less a US-thing. From my perspective, the European customer is not big on plastic keyboards and would probably rave at the one the iPhone provides.
jwkay
macrumors regular
How normal is it to charge for listening to voicemail? Are we really the exception here that we have free voicemail?
michelepri
macrumors 6502a
Not the point
I can assure you there are no problems with American companies here. Motorola is not treated worse than Nokia. The problem is only with the American cell phone market rules. Cell phones became popular in Europe about 10 years before the US and they all adopted the same standards: GSM, EDGE, 3G...
Open standards and unlocked phones made the European market a lot more competitive (excluding the UK) and consumers demand different things.
It would be exactly the same if a German supermarket came to the US but would not take credit cards, would not pack the groceries for you, and expect you to have a euro coin handy to leave as a deposit for the privilege of using a cart. American consumers would hate shopping there, even if they had good products.
European supermarkets are primitive compared to the ones in the US. But US cell phone companies are behind the European ones. If you take your products and services abroad, you have to match the level of their offers.
If you offer poorer service you can expect poorer reception. And it has nothing to do with nationalism.
I can assure you there are no problems with American companies here. Motorola is not treated worse than Nokia. The problem is only with the American cell phone market rules. Cell phones became popular in Europe about 10 years before the US and they all adopted the same standards: GSM, EDGE, 3G...
Open standards and unlocked phones made the European market a lot more competitive (excluding the UK) and consumers demand different things.
It would be exactly the same if a German supermarket came to the US but would not take credit cards, would not pack the groceries for you, and expect you to have a euro coin handy to leave as a deposit for the privilege of using a cart. American consumers would hate shopping there, even if they had good products.
European supermarkets are primitive compared to the ones in the US. But US cell phone companies are behind the European ones. If you take your products and services abroad, you have to match the level of their offers.
If you offer poorer service you can expect poorer reception. And it has nothing to do with nationalism.