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where does imprecision stop?

Is that all you got? Resorting to bitching about spelling mistakes? You're a real winner. Why post at all? It's clear you have nothing to contribute, at least nothing intelligent.

But, if you can't spell the name of the technology correctly, why should we believe the rest of your arguments? :confused:

Seriously - sloppy writing is often the result of sloppy thinking. If you want to make your point, take care with your discourse.

Any Apple user should realize that appearance is sometimes as important as substance.
 
its apple. it would be blu-ray authoring as well :D


THE FORMAT WAR IS OVER if this happens....blu-ray has been pretty much been dominating if you pay attention to the real numbers (didn't lose a single week in sales all of last year) and if it were any other way apple would do a combo drive.

The BluRay side has been claiming that "the format war is over" for awhile now, I've come to terms that it's other equivalent is "Mission Accomplished," and look where we are 5 years later...
 
What is the life of a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD disc? I don't burn movies on DVD, so I'm more interested in using discs for archiving photos (in addition to external drives). Most of my shoots currently take up 3-4 DVDs, so it would be nice to fit them all on one disc. How long are they expected to last?
 
Do you actually own HD-DVD and Blurary software/hardware? Because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. HD-DVD has had stellar transfers from the start. 30GB is MORE than enough to fit HD media. Considering Bluray discs are maxing out at 50gb and there are 51GB HD-DVD discs, what is your argument? That the inefficient MPEG2 codec and uncompressed audio that Sony continues to push on everyone, requires immense amounts of space? Well then you'd be correct.


You are seriously and comically ill-informed.

1. Blu-ray does not max out at 50GB. TDK and others are working on 100 and 200GB Blu-ray discs. HD DVD is the inferior platform that is now trying to tout a triple-layer 51GB HD DVD disc that from most reports won't be compatible with any of the existing HD DVD players on the market.

2. Uncompressed audio is superior to compressed audio. By stating that uncompressed is "inefficient" you prove your lack of understanding on the subject. HD DVD discs don't have enough space to provide uncompressed audio - unlike Blu-ray - because again it is an inferior platform.

3. The majority of the discs available for Blu-ray are encoded using AVC - not MPEG-2 - which is the version of the MPEG-4 video codec [H.264] that Sony and Apple both played a hand in developing. It is superior to Microsoft's VC-1 (aka Windows Media 9) that is almost exclusively used by HD DVD. Apparently Paramount thinks AVC is superior to VC-1; that's why they used AVC for the HD DVD release of Transformers. If Paramount isn't cheap, they'll do an even better higher bit-rate AVC transfer of that film for the Blu-ray release when their 18 month HD DVD exclusive contract comes to an end.

But do go ahead and enjoy that proprietary Microsoft platform of yours. Just keep in mind that people will be laughing at you when it turns out to be the next Beta...especially the rest of the Apple-supporting Mac community.
 
Wtf are you talking about, the resolution of Blu-ray is EXACTLY the same as HD-DVD. 1920x1080p. This forum is seriously SO misguided in almost everything.


Same resolution, but much different bit rate capacity. Blu-ray has a much higher bit-rate ability than HD DVD, whether it is using MPEG-2, VC-1, or the superior AVC codec.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't HD-DVD region free and Blu-ray isn't (at least in the spec, but they'll turn it on all the discs if they win of course)? To me that is a major plus for HD-DVD, I like importing foreign films and TV series, and until there are multi-region Blu-ray players I'm for the one that doesn't region lock.


Region coding on Blu-ray only lasts for 1 year in order to protect the studios from "parallel importing" (aka "gray import", which the MPAA considers a form of piracy) that can ruin the box office in foreign territory if the movie is still in the theatres. And since Blu-ray has this feature, "neutral" studios like New Line are releasing titles on Blu-ray six months before they hit HD DVD. It should also be noted that HD DVD also approved region codings but hasn't enacted them [yet]. If this is an issue for you, you should know that very few Blu-ray titles even have it enacted. Don't fall for the FUD from the other side bankrolled by the convicted monopolist corporation headquartered in Redmond Washington.


I have Transformers on HD-DVD, what "requirements" did it miss that you speak of? It was encoded at 1920x1080 and utilizes Dolby Digital Plus, am I missing something else that is "required"? It even has all of the interactive stuff that Sony has YET to implement with their Bluray Java nonsense.


Java nonsense? I guess you prefer proprietary formats bought and sold by Microsoft. Perhaps you shouldn't be on a Mac themed website if that is how you feel. Furthermore, you are incorrect. Sony is already releasing titles that support BD-J... One of which is Resident Evil Extinction. Sunshine is coming out soon and it also supports BD-J... and the PiP features that are part of the BD Profile 1.1. War from Lionsgate also supports those features. More to come later.

It should be noted that while Blu-ray has multiple profiles which enable further supplemental features, HD DVD cannot upgrade its underperforming bit-rate transfers without wiping out compatibility. It should also be noted that Toshiba was willing to drop HD DVD and adopt Blu-ray in exchange for a lower royalty fee from Sony and the rest of the BDA but Microsoft interfered and "encouraged" them to go ahead and release HD DVD anyway. If anyone has any doubts that Microsoft is the company behind this format war, they should ask themselves why it is that Microsoft - and NOT Toshiba - that is handling the consumer complaint issues with the Combo DVD/HD DVD title releases. Check the AVS forums...it is Microsoft support handling those "issues" even though Microsoft is not the disc manufacturer. Hmmm....
 
All Macs need hardware acceleration drivers before one could even think to work with 1080p AVC coded materials.
I tried it and even the most capable MacBook Pro is unable to play some of those movies. The reason is the lack of AVIVO or PureVideo in any Mac player. That is really a shame..
 
What does this have to do with your statement "9 years since the SuperDrive..." ?? And with the "Power Macintosh G4 (Digital Audio)" in January 2001 which was the first with the DVR-103 option? Which my 64-bit calculator says is 7 years....

I have no idea what this argument is about now ;)
I was more concerned about a change in the ability to read optical media.

Which is now the DVD-ROM in the beige G3. :rolleyes:

Guess that happens after talking about the B&W recently. It is 7 years since the DVR-103 though.
 
Audio

so the people with high end audio equipment should suffer at the expense of consumers who settle for sub par audio? I honestly do not understand why you do not realize that it would be better with lossless audio, and hence better on blu-ray. its not just me who realizes this.

I found it funny how you earlier chose to quote the highdefdigest review of Transformers as an example of the poor audio of HD DVD, while stopping the quote just prior to that review's next sentence: "That said, it is hard to imagine any film taking a Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround track to its zenith better than 'Transformers.'" You also failed to mention that same review actually gave the disc a five star rating for audio quality. http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1110/transformers.html

Apparently even after his initial expectation, the reviewer kept an open enough mind to actually listen to the audio, rather than just look at a specifications and assume he was right. That seems to be a rare quality these days.

I think that is what I find most frustrating about the constant mantra that blu is better because it is bigger. A larger capacity simply means it has the potential to have higher quality, but the quality of the encode is actually more important. The thing that bothers me most was that Sony was talking up the importance of how blu had larger capacity even for the first 6 months of both systems, at a time when most HD DVDs were dual layer 30 GB discs and almost every blu-ray disc was a 25 GB disc, apparently counting on the population's inability to do very simple math (and it seems they were right, as people were talking even then about how blu-ray held more! Now that's good marketing!) And to add insult to injury, most of the their discs were MPEG2 while HD DVD were using MPEG4. If you check the early reviews you will see that Sony was over-promising and under-delivering for most of their early releases, while Warner was actually delivering quality releases. Sony have certainly improved their releases, as illustrated by the remastered "Fifth Element" which replaced the universally panned initial blu-ray release. A comparison review which illustrates the extreme importance of the encode as opposed to the kind of disc is at your previously mentioned highdefdigest. http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/894/fifthelement_remastered.html

You seem to be very negative towards Warner, who I've personally found to have one of the more consistent track records for quality encodes. Have you checked out the "Blade Runner" release on either blu-ray or HD DVD? I thought it looked rather good, and every review I've read has raved about it. http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/355/bladerunner.html


combo discs? how many combo discs do you actually have and are expected to be released in 2008? this is already been stated by others in the thread, but you are just a very short minded value shopper who buys and justifies the cheapest option even though its always the one thats needs to be fixed/repaired/upgraded the fastest. and this is again the case. you will end up paying more than me when you are forced to buy a blu-ray player, and I make more than you so its funny how that works out (not insulting, just pointing out the downsides of your value theory)

Actually, the combo discs are not even close to the cheapest option, so I'm not sure what you are thinking there. As much as I hate the flipper discs, I do like the ability to be able to play the SD version on the Macbook, but in Canada there is an even higher price premium for them. $40 for "Knocked Up"? Are they mad? My main concern, though, is the fragile nature of two exposed playing sides. If they are able to come out with a single sided combo disc similar to the combo SACD/CDs, it would be a much more appealing product.

And on the topic of fragile, that was my main initial concern with blu-ray... that the thinner protective layer would be a high risk to scratching and ruining the disc. However I must say that the TDK coating they are using does appear to work great and I have yet to see a scratched blu-ray disc. I wish they would use that coating for everything from CDs to DVDs to HD DVDs.
 
Doesn't anyone realize this format war is going to be decided by the average consumer and not by someone who lives in his parent's basement. 3 Blu-Ray players and 2 HD-DVD players pffft. If superior formats always won I would be listening to a SACD player and not my I-Pod in all of it's compressed glory.
 
Is that all you got? Resorting to bitching about spelling mistakes? You're a real winner. Why post at all? It's clear you have nothing to contribute, at least nothing intelligent.

i honestly am not a stickler on spelling mistakes, but if it was a spelling mistake you wouldn't have done it multiple times. IF you actually had a blu-ray drive you would at least have some knowledge in the area and would not spell it like a severely uninformed consumer rather than a HD media guru as you portray yourself.

The BluRay side has been claiming that "the format war is over" for awhile now, I've come to terms that it's other equivalent is "Mission Accomplished," and look where we are 5 years later...

yeah...MADOKA conveniently left out the whole "if this happens" portion to delude himself into thinking he got back at me for making him eat his words in a previous thread on the manner.

I'm glad apple is choosing blu-ray, and as a devoted mac user I took into account their position on the BDA when deciding which format I would go with. I made the right decision, and so did apple. blu-ray has so many advantages over hd-dvd that have been numerously discussed between the dribble on this thread, it is also much more viable in the PC world, so for me I saw this coming.
 
All Macs need hardware acceleration drivers before one could even think to work with 1080p AVC coded materials.
I tried it and even the most capable MacBook Pro is unable to play some of those movies. The reason is the lack of AVIVO or PureVideo in any Mac player. That is really a shame..

Which is why the current crop of iMac sporting HD2600 cards can handle Blu-ray once the support is added into Leopard. HD2xxx & HD3xxx cards have hardware decoders for HD content (both formats). I have tested this on the PC side with one of the new LG dual-format player drives for computers. Flawless playback @1080p on my 30" display at 2560x1600 over a dual-link DVI.

More than likely the new crop of Mac Pros will sport the HD38XX family of video cards and bring this functionality to the top end. I also predict the entire lineup to be 8-core to differentiate it from an upcoming iMac refresh to Penryn quad-cores.
 
Region coding on Blu-ray only lasts for 1 year in order to protect the studios from "parallel importing" (aka "gray import", which the MPAA considers a form of piracy) that can ruin the box office in foreign territory if the movie is still in the theatres. And since Blu-ray has this feature, "neutral" studios like New Line are releasing titles on Blu-ray six months before they hit HD DVD. It should also be noted that HD DVD also approved region codings but hasn't enacted them [yet]. If this is an issue for you, you should know that very few Blu-ray titles even have it enacted. Don't fall for the FUD from the other side bankrolled by the convicted monopolist corporation headquartered in Redmond Washington.

I hope you and other Blu-ray supporters are right and that region coding is only going to ever be used on brand new films, if at all. But I simply don't believe that given the option (which is theirs) the movie studios will not abuse it like they have done with DVDs. The same movie studios you're saying will only use region coding for a year on HD are still using it on films that are years and years old on DVD - the argument just doesn't hold any water. You're obviously a staunch Blu-ray fan, but I think you're swallowing their excuses more than I am believing any MS FUD. In my view the ONLY reason region coding is not being used for ALL Blu-ray discs is the format war. What would be the incentive for Sony and co to abandon it otherwise?

I do know that many Blu-Ray titles don't use it right now, but I simply don't believe that that won't change if Blu-ray wins the format war. And who knows, maybe the same thing will happen with HD-DVD if that wins out, I wouldn't put it past them. All I know is, region coding sucks, and I think the excuse about harming theatrical runs is a load of rubbish IMHO, and it's always been about controlling markets and keeping prices artificially high.

It's simply not in the interests of Sony or the movie studios to abandon region coding, because it controls the market and keep prices higher for newer releases, whether it be the release of a recent Hollywood blockbuster or the re-release of a 50+year old foreign arthouse movie.

My point is that both sides know region coding is horrible for the consumer, but at this point it seems it's only HD-DVD's policy to simply not use it. That's a big plus for HD-DVD for me, because if the choice was no film because it was region locked or a *slightly* less good HD disc, I'd take the latter, it's still going to be better than a plain old DVD.

Hopefully there will be multi-region players regardless like for DVD and it will be a moot point.
 
It's gonna be region-free at some point, but it's gonna take a while to happen.

History will repeat itself, trust me. First there will be a chip mod, then a "secret" code such as 31415926 (does this sound familiar?) for changing the region on the fly, and after some time they're gonna be truly region free.

I skipped the first part with standard DVD's, but jumped to buy one that was region-free without any physical modifications. Now my 2nd DVD player is truly region free as it should have been in the first place. Maybe this progress will be faster with high definition players? Who knows. But it's gonna happen eventually!
 
The only BDs I have don't even have the region coding turned on.. 300, Planet Earth box set, Blade Runner FC - they say they're for the US but they work fine in the UK.. So they're definitely more relaxed about region codes now - I don't mind it being in the spec as long as its easy to research the "region 0" type stuff before purchase.. I have a few "no region" DVDs too, and a multi-region swap disk for the PS2..

There will likely be a multi-region swap disk for the PS3/BD too if it ever becomes an issue, which I doubt it will!

Warner don't seem to use region coding at all on BDs either.. People making a mountain out of a molehill, especially now regions are part of the HD-DVD spec too.
 
That's not true. MPEG-2 creates artifacts that don't appear in VC-1 or H.264.

Not really. Just like mp3 is capable of supporting CD quality sound (320 kbps) MPEG-2 is more than capable of supporting full HD without noticeable artifacting. The only disadvantage of MPEG-2 is that it is much more bit hungry than either AVC or VC-1 requiring as much as twice the number of bits to encode at the *exact same* quality as newer codecs. I would take MPEG-2 or AVC over VC-1 any day because Microsoft's encoder appears to apply a filter that softens the picture to reduce film grain. A major disadvantage of VC-1 IMHO.
 
I hope you and other Blu-ray supporters are right and that region coding is only going to ever be used on brand new films, if at all. But I simply don't believe that given the option (which is theirs) the movie studios will not abuse it like they have done with DVDs. The same movie studios you're saying will only use region coding for a year on HD are still using it on films that are years and years old on DVD - the argument just doesn't hold any water. You're obviously a staunch Blu-ray fan, but I think you're swallowing their excuses more than I am believing any MS FUD. In my view the ONLY reason region coding is not being used for ALL Blu-ray discs is the format war. What would be the incentive for Sony and co to abandon it otherwise?

I do know that many Blu-Ray titles don't use it right now, but I simply don't believe that that won't change if Blu-ray wins the format war. And who knows, maybe the same thing will happen with HD-DVD if that wins out, I wouldn't put it past them. All I know is, region coding sucks, and I think the excuse about harming theatrical runs is a load of rubbish IMHO, and it's always been about controlling markets and keeping prices artificially high.

It's simply not in the interests of Sony or the movie studios to abandon region coding, because it controls the market and keep prices higher for newer releases, whether it be the release of a recent Hollywood blockbuster or the re-release of a 50+year old foreign arthouse movie.

My point is that both sides know region coding is horrible for the consumer, but at this point it seems it's only HD-DVD's policy to simply not use it. That's a big plus for HD-DVD for me, because if the choice was no film because it was region locked or a *slightly* less good HD disc, I'd take the latter, it's still going to be better than a plain old DVD.

Hopefully there will be multi-region players regardless like for DVD and it will be a moot point.

Not to make too much of a point of it, but most people live in a single country their whole lives, few are out of region for any length of time, and only a small percentage of users are actually inconvenienced by region coding . I'm especially sympathetic to those that are interested in foreign films, which aren't available in the local market, and would require importation with region codes that wouldn't be supported. To date, there have been a few hundreds of titles issued within each of the HD groups, with Blu-Ray having a very small title advantage. I doubt that there are more than a handful of those titles that are not produced for all regions.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060526-6927.html

Either way, both formats have a region coding specification, and it would appear that some studios ignore this feature for back catalogue titles. A studio would be considered foolish to provide a recent blockbuster release without region coding, risking losses due to gray market sales out of region.

At any rate, I won't lose any sleep over this issue.
 
I'm a bit surprised to read from some that Blu-ray or HD-DVD will matter for backup purpose.

I feel using a media so fragile and with limited capacity to do backups is archaic.

As far as I'm concerned, disk backup is the only way to go. They are cheap nowadays and can just buy a couple of 500gb per year and dump my (disk) backups on those and archive them in a couple of different locations...

Bluray and HD-DVD are both a step BACK in this matter.

Just my 2 cents.

Ralph
 
If I can't get my Japanese Ghibli films in HD because of stupid region coding I'm not going to be happy (the UK and Japan are the same region for DVD but not for Blu-ray. See how nuts this all is?)

Region coding is a very valid concern for consumers. It's the one thing that I think stinks badly about blu-ray. However is there a similar guarantee that region coding won't pop up in HD DVD's future? I mean, this ultimately is something mandated by the studios themselves and both formats no doubt must have some form of support for regional control at least available to support this.

Anyway, as for Japanese films, this is why I bought a region A PS3 as I can get all the US and Japanese releases. The rest of the world doesn't exist as far as I am concerned. Everything arrives absurdly late almost everywhere outside of those two regions (and no I am not an American). As far as I am concerned there is only one blu-ray region: A :D
 
Bottom line:

HD-DVD and Microsoft are headed for irrelevance.

I personally don't care what direction Apple decides to go, I still refuse to support Sony in any capacity. Regardless that this is a Mac forum and most users on here are HEAVILY bias against Microsoft, if you think that Sony is a company that is looking out for your interests then you seriously have another thing coming. I've been on the Sony ship in the past when they came out with 'cutting edge' technology, and I can report that my MiniDisc sits today in a junk drawer. Enjoy riding the Sony ship...
 
I personally don't care what direction Apple decides to go, I still refuse to support Sony in any capacity. Regardless that this is a Mac forum and most users on here are HEAVILY bias against Microsoft, if you think that Sony is a company that is looking out for your interests then you seriously have another thing coming. I've been on the Sony ship in the past when they came out with 'cutting edge' technology, and I can report that my MiniDisc sits today in a junk drawer. Enjoy riding the Sony ship...

MiniDisc was actually an excellent replacement for casette tape. Put this into context... does a Newton and/or Motorolla ROKR sit next to the MiniDisc in your drawer? To paraphrase your point, do you think Apple have your personal interests in mind? Let's not refract perspectives for our own little personal hate agendas: if you feel that way about Sony, then you really must dislike every company.
 
I personally don't care what direction Apple decides to go, I still refuse to support Sony in any capacity. Regardless that this is a Mac forum and most users on here are HEAVILY bias against Microsoft, if you think that Sony is a company that is looking out for your interests then you seriously have another thing coming. I've been on the Sony ship in the past when they came out with 'cutting edge' technology, and I can report that my MiniDisc sits today in a junk drawer. Enjoy riding the Sony ship...

It's a consortium, not Sony.

Major hardware members include: Sony, Sharp, Hitachi, Panasonic, HP, Dell, LG, Thomson, Sun (Java), Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Mitsubishi Electric, TDK.

Pretty sure that Apple makes that list once they ship Blu-Ray players/burners.
 
The videocards in the latest MBP's do not support HDCP, which seems like a basic requirement for Blu-ray movie playback. Does this mean these computers will get a new or updated videocard? That is, if Blu-ray is coming to the portables.
 
The videocards in the latest MBP's do not support HDCP, which seems like a basic requirement for Blu-ray movie playback. Does this mean these computers will get a new or updated videocard? That is, if Blu-ray is coming to the portables.

Portables + iMac could be exempt if Apple makes the exeternal display turn off when playing a HDM movie. I know that toshiba and sony have notebooks that aren't using hdcp displays (internal), but also have hdmi out for the external displays.

It will be interesting to see if Apple will continue to lag behind practically every other computer maker in the hdm front.
 
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