iFixit Finds 2019 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Subtle' Changes to Membrane Cover and Switches

[Cptkent]

Having received a full refund thanks to EU consumer law, an incredibly long process that Apple actively tries to make progressively more difficult for you to complete, there is no way in hell I am purchasing this. I’m laughing out loud at the idiots that have also had keyboard problems and are now going to buy the 2019 machine. Insanity. Wake up.

I’ve had one replaced as well. Good for 18 months I guess, then I’m screwed.

No way in hell in going for another MacBook with the same keyboard, in any incarnation.

 

[Analog Kid]

Not surprised. I don't know anyone who's had issues with their keyboards, and I know a LOT of people with MBPs. Problem with social media is that it becomes an echo chamber. OMG! 0.0001% of keyboards have issues! That's terrible! But, that 0.0001% of people with keyboard issues get echoed into something that sounds like its affecting 96.351% of MBP users, and that's simply not true.

I have NEVER had an issue with my keyboard. Full stop. Batteries? Absolutely. Keyboards? Nope. But, a keyboard issue (just need to be a slob and eat food over my keyboard) will also get me a new battery -- for FOUR YEARS! Bonus!

At some point I realized that most of the people I hear complaining about the keyboard are also saying they'd never buy a current MBP because of the keyboard-- meaning they aren't complaining about their own experience, for some reason they're complaining because some guy on YouTube feels aggrieved...

 

[smirking]

Apple got successful by surprising and delighting their customers with great original designs. When products were hated by customers (e.g. the hockey puck mouse) they used to get rid of them quickly.

The hockey puck mouse hung on for two years.

I'm sure they've done their share of listening in the past as they have now. Reality is never held in as stark relief as they appear to be in a MacRumors thread. No company, not even Apple, is so dogmatic that they don't act accordingly from one situation to another. In any case, I'm just calling out some revisionist history up above.

Apple delighted because they took risks. They missed plenty of times. There's no magic formula that they had and suddenly lost. They're still doing it. They're still taking risks and risks have the tendency to rub lots of people the wrong way.

It's what you sign up for if you buy Apple products. They ain't gonna do the popular thing for the sake of being popular and they're going to make changes and force everyone else to make changes a year or two before market conditions might say is the optimal time to switch directions. That's why we went through the drama of USB-C only, no CD drive, and no floppy drives.

They believed those devices needed to be put out to pasture and when they decide that, they're not listening to you or me. This practice didn't start recently. This practice will result in lots of anguish as evidenced by the peanut gallery. It'll also increase the chances that it'll strike gold and find delight once in a while.

 

[jpn]

https://forums.appleinsider.com/dis...oesnt-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

"Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures"

Keyboard made to fail eh? That's dramatizing it a little much.



I don't know how some people have so many problems. Between my wife and I, we know dozens of people with this keyboard (one being a relative) - not counting the fact that we both own 2017 MBP. None... of us ... have had ... problems. And my wife uses hers EVERY DAY for hours - and has for over a year now.

I'm not going to invalidate what people say but when AppleInsider has reports about service calls being lower for 2016 and 2017 models vs previous models .... INCLUDING KEYBOARD FAILURES ... something's not adding up.

I think these stories get a lot of clicks and attention - and people love to bash Apple - makes them feel smarter about themselves.


I hate to quote the same source again but this is a great article: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard


"But MacBook keyboards also had key failures and other issues before the introduction of the butterfly mechanism in 2015—in fact, our data shows they were actually less reliable than today's MacBook Pros. "

"AppleInsider has been tracking MacBook keyboard failure rates since 2016, and we've collected real-world data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. As we reported earlier this year, given about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures. "

" Data shows that users' keyboard issues are not actually a statistically larger problem than they were previously, and that Apple's previous efforts to address issues that did exist have indeed worked. "

great post. thanks.
and repeating the link was also needed in case MacRumors didn't get it the first time.
MacRumors article contributors (not forum post contributors) have been at the very forefront of repeating info ad nauseam without citing any data from apple approved repair centers.
MacRumors has an insidious way of posting opinionated-groundswell-info and making it seem like its done some kind of fact reporting but really is just publishing an update of people's thinking regardless of not having any data to back it up (note: not talking about sheer rumors about what may be upcoming in product updates).

apple is all about continuous improvement.
yes it needs pushes from competitors and its users in order to get there, but that's not evil.
its well intentioned and why i love it.

 

[torana355]

Bc aapl takes care of customer issues and some people did have the issue. It just wasn’t as big of a deal as people here say.

Take your head out of the sand, this issue is clearly widespread, the evidence is clear to see with Apple making modifications to the design each year and the repair programs. Not to mention when you go through 3 or 4 of these machines and have the same issues with them all it's pretty clear it's a major design flaw.

 

[Yurish]

Why not just re-use keyboard from 2012 Macbook Pro?
Still use one and seems it's my first and last laptop from Apple.

 

[Analog Kid]

Take your head out of the sand, this issue is clearly widespread, the evidence is clear to see with Apple making modifications to the design each year and the repair programs. Not to mention when you go through 3 or 4 of these machines and have the same issues with them all it's pretty clear it's a major design flaw.

If the evidence is clear to see, I think you should be able to provide some: please post unbiased statistically significant data indicating the failure rates of the current MBP versus a generation prior 2016.

 

[torana355]

If the evidence is clear to see, I think you should be able to provide some: please post unbiased statistically significant data indicating the failure rates of the current MBP versus a generation prior 2016.

Its up to Apple to provide the evidence to prove I am wrong, not the other way around. As it stands from the information I have there is a clear issue with the butterfly keyboard.

 

[libmanj]

So...does it feel any different to type on it?

 

[Analog Kid]

I think you're missing the point. Apple's normal warranty for the MacBook Pro is 1 year, unless you purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan, then it is 3 years.

That 4th year of "warranty coverage" is only for MacBook Pro models that they've identified are likely to have this keyboard issue.

Per Apple's own "Keyboard Service Program for MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro" support article, 4 years of coverage are for keyboard issues specifically. This implies that Apple is aware that these products have issues and they're tacking on extra warranty coverage to cover their butts.

So this is not a 4 year warranty covering their products; its a 4 year warranty covering themselves.

Warranty coverage is not free to Apple. They aren't covering their butts. They putting their money where their mouth is.

Covering the keyboard longer than the rest of the unit is telling their customers that, despite all they've read on MacRumors, they can be confident in the keyboard. If it fails, it will be replaced with prioritized next day service at their local Apple Store.

If the keyboard were a total disaster, then it would be a lot cheaper for Apple to redesign it than pay to keep replacing it.

 

[Jacobi]

What they need to do is introduce a "MacBook Pro Classic." Basically the same as the old design but with upgraded internal hardware. They can keep selling their new designs.

This is what the Coca-Cola people did after the new coke formula turned out to be a disaster. Everbody bought Coca-Cola Classic, and eventually the new coke formula was phased out.

Reminds me of World of Warcraft Classic coming out this year -- maybe that will turn out like Coke did too.

 

[Analog Kid]

Its up to Apple to provide the evidence to prove I am wrong, not the other way around. As it stands from the information I have there is a clear issue with the butterfly keyboard.

I didn't quote Apple, I quoted you.

 

[simonmet]

Why cant they just give the butterfly keyboard an extra 0.5mm depth.

I’ll take 1 mm for $300

 

[Analog Kid]

Why not just re-use keyboard from 2012 Macbook Pro?
Still use one and seems it's my first and last laptop from Apple.

As far as I can tell, it's at least in part because the 2012 was less reliable. According to Apple Insider, the 2017 MBP has fewer keyboard failures than the 2014 and 2015 models and significantly fewer other failures-- I'd assume the 2012 was no better than those.

 

[torana355]

I didn't quote Apple, I quoted you.

Well then its up to you to prove me wrong. Ill be waiting.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Well then its up to you to prove me wrong. Ill be waiting.

What? Why? I think Apple is lizard people. It’s true until they prove me wrong.

We (us users) have sites showing less repair rates including keyboard repairs for 2016-2017 models. Apple doesn’t have to prove anything.

 

[Analog Kid]

Well then its up to you to prove me wrong. Ill be waiting.

Uh, no it's not.

If you claim that something's a fact, back it up with a source. If you can't produce evidence when someone asks you to cite your sources, we may remove your posts. If you started the thread, then we may remove or close the thread.​

I'm not generally much of a stickler for the rules, but I can say that "the evidence is clear" is an assertion begging for a citation, and there's nothing anywhere that says I need to prove your unsupported facts wrong.

That said, I have supported my view:

Seems as good a place as any to repost the only statistical data I can find:

The only source I’ve found quoting a percentage is Apple Insider, and they estimate 11% of repair events were keyboard related in 2016 and 8% in 2017 compared to a baseline of 6% in 2015.

That is not a percentage of keyboards failing, it is a percentage of repair events related to keyboards. They were clocking 118 keyboard failures in 2014 and 112 failures in 2017. There was a rise in 2016 that was addressed and I don’t see any indication of a multigenerational problem here.

“the 2016 model generated double the service calls for the keyboard itself, completely obscuring the fact that the machine is more reliable overall than predecessors.”​

Consumer reports repeatedly ranks the MBP as the most reliable laptop they test:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/apples-macbooks-still-the-most-reliable/

2018 has Apple as the only machine with a 10/10 on reliability.

Which? survey says Apple laptops have the highest reliability with a score of 81%, second highest is 74%, Microsoft comes in at 66%:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/1...reliable-laptops-while-microsoft-disappoints/


YMMV

@BigMcGuire provided support a few posts up:

https://forums.appleinsider.com/dis...oesnt-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

"Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures"

Keyboard made to fail eh? That's dramatizing it a little much.



I don't know how some people have so many problems. Between my wife and I, we know dozens of people with this keyboard (one being a relative) - not counting the fact that we both own 2017 MBP. None... of us ... have had ... problems. And my wife uses hers EVERY DAY for hours - and has for over a year now.

I'm not going to invalidate what people say but when AppleInsider has reports about service calls being lower for 2016 and 2017 models vs previous models .... INCLUDING KEYBOARD FAILURES ... something's not adding up.

I think these stories get a lot of clicks and attention - and people love to bash Apple - makes them feel smarter about themselves.


I hate to quote the same source again but this is a great article: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...-at-a-faster-rate-than-the-butterfly-keyboard


"But MacBook keyboards also had key failures and other issues before the introduction of the butterfly mechanism in 2015—in fact, our data shows they were actually less reliable than today's MacBook Pros. "

"AppleInsider has been tracking MacBook keyboard failure rates since 2016, and we've collected real-world data ranging all the way back to the 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display. As we reported earlier this year, given about the same number of MacBook Pro sales year-over-year, the total number of service calls were lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro in their first years of service, compared to earlier models, even when including keyboard failures. "

" Data shows that users' keyboard issues are not actually a statistically larger problem than they were previously, and that Apple's previous efforts to address issues that did exist have indeed worked. "

But I have yet to see any hard numbers supporting the assertion that there's a real problem here.

So, I ask you again, if the evidence is clear, please provide statistically significant and unbiased data regarding the failure rates of the current MBP versus a generation prior to 2016.

 

[torana355]

Uh, no it's not.

If you claim that something's a fact, back it up with a source. If you can't produce evidence when someone asks you to cite your sources, we may remove your posts. If you started the thread, then we may remove or close the thread.​

I'm not generally much of a stickler for the rules, but I can say that "the evidence is clear" is an assertion begging for a citation, and there's nothing anywhere that says I need to prove your unsupported facts wrong.

That said, I have supported my view:


@BigMcGuire provided support a few posts up:


But I have yet to see any hard numbers supporting the assertion that there's a real problem here.

So, I ask you again, if the evidence is clear, please provide statistically significant and unbiased data regarding the failure rates of the current MBP versus a generation prior 2016.

Like I said there is no way for a user like me to prove it, Apple are the only ones who have the real numbers on the failure rates on these machines. However from my own experience and the experience of others who I know the new butterfly keyboard is not reliable like the pre 2016 machines. I want to upgrade my 2011 MBA but as it stands I wont till they upgrade the keyboard. Ive owned multiple 2016/2017 and 2018 MBP's and they all exhibited the issue, I never had an issue with an Apple keyboard prior to the redesign in 2016.

 

[Dave-Z]

I realized that most of the people I hear complaining about the keyboard are also saying they'd never buy a current MBP because of the keyboard-- meaning they aren't complaining about their own experience,

No doubt there are some who are doing that. Me? I am complaining based on personal experience. I have since gotten rid of my 12" MacBook.

 

[Analog Kid]

Like I said there is no way for a user like me to prove it, Apple are the only ones who have the real numbers on the failure rates on these machines. However from my own experience and the experience of others who I know the new butterfly keyboard is not reliable like the pre 2016 machines. I want to upgrade my 2011 MBA but as it stands I wont till they upgrade the keyboard.

I'm a user, and I was able to find sources of reliable data. Based on the sources I provided, rather than hype, I would say the evidence is clear to see that this problem is not widespread.

It's up to you to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting.

 

[flyinmac]

good

now, when will we see that all glass haptic keyboard?

As soon as they figure out how to design glass to be fragile enough to crack when you type on it but rigid enough to stay together during shipping. That way all cracked keyboards will be “caused by the end-user”

 

[torana355]

I'm a user, and I was able to find sources of reliable data. Based on the sources I provided, rather than hype, I would say the evidence is clear to see that this problem is not widespread.

It's up to you to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting.

There is no proof that that data is "reliable" Apple have lied in the past. I don't believe them for a second when they say it affects a very small percentage of users, if it were true there would not be so many people having repeated issues with this keyboard. Like I said ive had the issue with all the 2016/2017 and 2018 MBP's, its funny how I NEVER had a single issue with any Apple Laptop before 2016.

 

[Baymowe335]

Take your head out of the sand, this issue is clearly widespread, the evidence is clear to see with Apple making modifications to the design each year and the repair programs. Not to mention when you go through 3 or 4 of these machines and have the same issues with them all it's pretty clear it's a major design flaw.

Nah, it’s not clear or there would be a large scale redesign and A LOT more complaints, daily, and never ending. Not just the echo chamber on MacRumors. Not saying some don’t have the issue, but clearly not everyone does.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Some of you need to stop draping yourselves in logical fallacy.

Just because some of you had keyboard failure with 2016 etc. that doesn't mean that you will have a problem with the 2019 keyboard. And saying you aren't going to buy because of a past failure until Apple redesigns the keyboard to your liking is logical fallacy.

Would you claim to be a failure in all that you will do tomorrow and beyond, because you made a mistake yesterday, last month, or last year? Hopefully, you wouldn't because that would be illogical. And yet, several of you hold fast to that very mentality when it comes to Apple.

At least try the new computer before condemning it to failure. That would be the logical thing to do.

 

[torana355]

Nah, it’s not clear or there would be a large scale redesign and A LOT more complaints, daily, and never ending. Not just the echo chamber on MacRumors. Not saying some don’t have the issue, but clearly not everyone does.

The issue is being reported outside of Macrumors, its in the news here in Australia.