Think she moved on, feel awful

[Huntn]

LOL. In case you've missed it it was not about having kids. If a woman chooses to exercise her choice without even asking what her man wants, she is obviously not very interested in keeping her man.

I think up to this point, the discussion about this particular subject is that both people in a relationship should express their desires about having children or not, and make decisions accordingly, including whether the relationship should continue or not.
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No.

If a woman explains her preferences in this regard when the relationship starts, that she would prefer not to have children - after all, she is the person who will carry and bear whatever children they have and the physical burden of potential health risks will be entirely borne by her, while she will shoulder the responsibility for rearing whatever children are born, and will also shoulder most of the care consequences and - to my mind, on the subject matter of children, her decision takes absolute precedence.

She can ask what he wants, he can state his preference, but - to my mind - this decision is hers to make.

If he chooses not to abide by her decision, fine, let him choose to go elsewhere.

In actuality, this is a dual decision regarding the status of the relationship, each party has veto power in that regard.

 

[1196403]

Try dating older, you might be surprised. Plenty of beautiful women in their 30’s and 40’s. Some of them even might have the new Mac Pro and XDR display. Might be worth looking into.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

.......

In actuality, this is a dual decision regarding the status of the relationship, each party has veto power in that regard.

Each party has veto power over the status of, existence of (and possible continuation of) the relationship, and if one party desires to have children while the other does not, (and this can cut in either direction), then, the relationship may well end as a consequence of that.

But, the choice and the decision to have children rests solely with the woman.

 

[Hieveryone]

Try dating older, you might be surprised. Plenty of beautiful women in their 30’s and 40’s. Some of them even might have the new Mac Pro and XDR display. Might be worth looking into.

Lol!!!!! If she’s got the new Mac Pro and XDR display she’s a keeper🤣
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Each party has veto power over the status of, existence of (and possible continuation of) the relationship, and if one party desires to have children while the other does not, (and this can cut in either direction), then, the relationship may well end as a consequence of that.

But, the choice and the decision to have children rests solely with the woman.

I think the bigger question here is, which woman DOESNT want children? I’ve never dated a girl or even met a girl who doesn’t want kids.

As everyone else is saying, it’s up to the man and the woman to decide together if they want kids but it’s always the man who doesn’t want them and girl who does.

Girls like having a baby to raise and take care of.

any girl who doesn’t is missing out on one of life’s greatest and most fulfilling experiences

I want kids too btw.

 

[Huntn]

Each party has veto power over the status of, existence of (and possible continuation of) the relationship, and if one party desires to have children while the other does not, (and this can cut in either direction), then, the relationship may well end as a consequence of that.

But, the choice and the decision to have children rests solely with the woman.

Well, I have to disagree with the way you have framed it, because it is not a sole decision. Yes, the woman carries the child and shoulders the risk, but both parties in the relationship contribute to the creation of the child and both have equal rights regarding this decision, including both agreement and veto rights.

There is no circumstance where the woman has the moral right to make the sole decision to have a child without the consent of her partner. And if the woman unilaterally decides to have a child without the consent of her husband, then a trust has been violated, which might jeopardize the relationship.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well, I have to disagree with the way you have framed it, because it is not a sole decision. Yes, the woman carries the child and shoulders the risk, but both parties in the relationship contribute to the creation of the child and both have equal rights regarding this decision, including both agreement and veto rights.

There is no circumstance where the woman has the moral right to make the sole decision to have a child without the consent of her partner. And if the woman unilaterally decides to have a child without the consent of her husband, then a trust has been violated, which might jeopardize the relationship.

I think that you misunderstood me; I wrote that this cuts both ways.

If the woman in a relationship wants to have a child, and the male partner doesn't, in my view, that relationship will end, if having a child is a deal breaker.

To my mind, in that situation, he has the right not to want to have a child, and not to have a child (and, - on a related matter - he can also take some degree of responsibility for birth control as well, instead of leaving that entirely to her).

However, if she doesn't want to have a child, and the male partner does, to my way of thinking, he has no say in her decision. The relationship may end, - and that is his right - but while he may make his preference known, he has no say whatsoever in her decision not to have a child.

 

[Hieveryone]

Well, I have to disagree with the way you have framed it, because it is not a sole decision. Yes, the woman carries the child and shoulders the risk, but both parties in the relationship contribute to the creation of the child and both have equal rights regarding this decision, including both agreement and veto rights.

There is no circumstance where the woman has the moral right to make the sole decision to have a child without the consent of her partner. And if the woman unilaterally decides to have a child without the consent of her husband, then a trust has been violated, which might jeopardize the relationship.

This is making more sense to me. I think it’s up to the man and the woman not just the woman @Scepticalscribe

 

[Clix Pix]

I think the bigger question here is, which woman DOESNT want children? I’ve never dated a girl or even met a girl who doesn’t want kids.

As everyone else is saying, it’s up to the man and the woman to decide together if they want kids but it’s always the man who doesn’t want them and girl who does.

Girls like having a baby to raise and take care of.

any girl who doesn’t is missing out on one of life’s greatest and most fulfilling experiences

I want kids too btw.

You're in for a surprise, OP, if you think every woman wants children. Some of us do not. Really. Some women have other priorities in their lives. Some couples have other priorities in their lives. Also, it is not "always the man who doesn't want them and the girl who does." That's not even a stereotype in today's society. You have an odd, narrow perception of how the world really works.

What is sad, though, is when a woman desperately wants children and for some physical, medical or genetic reason cannot have her own biological children; thankfully there is the option for adoption, and many couples have been very happy raising children who were in need of a caring, loving home and parents.....

 

[Huntn]

I think that you misunderstood me; I wrote that this cuts both ways.

If the woman in a relationship wants to have a child, and the male partner doesn't, in my view, that relationship will end, if having a child is a deal breaker.

To my mind, in that situation, he has the right not to want to have a child, and not to have a child (and, - on a related matter - he can also take some degree of responsibility for birth control as well, instead of leaving that entirely to her).

However, if she doesn't want to have a child, and the male partner does, in my view, he has no say in her decision. The relationship may end, but while he may make his preference known, he has no say in her decision not to have a child.

It‘s just the way you said it: the woman has the sole decision. I’m thinking in terms of a relationship, when it comes to saying yes or no, it is a joint decision with each party having veto power over the decision. Each partner has the right to say no to having a child, so in a way both partners have the sole decision to stop it, but it is a dual (yes) decision to have one.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

......


I think the bigger question here is, which woman DOESNT want children? I’ve never dated a girl or even met a girl who doesn’t want kids.

As everyone else is saying, it’s up to the man and the woman to decide together if they want kids but it’s always the man who doesn’t want them and girl who does.

Girls like having a baby to raise and take care of.

any girl who doesn’t is missing out on one of life’s greatest and most fulfilling experiences

I want kids too btw.

Seriously, you haven't a clue about women, and your attitudes towards women are distinctly odd, and quite warped.

Besides, women are not a hive mind.

Not every woman wants children - some of us, as @Clix Pix so rightly points out below, - don't, never did, and never will.

Whereas others - other women - do want children, and yet others really want to have children and cannot have them, and that is a genuine tragedy.

And yes, some of us have other priorities in our lives, priorities that do not include children.

You're in for a surprise, OP, if you think every woman wants children. Some of us do not. Really. Some women have other priorities in their lives. Some couples have other priorities in their lives. Also, it is not "always the man who doesn't want them and the girl who does." That's not even a stereotype in today's society. You have an odd, narrow perception of how the world really works.

What is sad, though, is when a woman desperately wants children and for some physical, medical or genetic reason cannot have her own biological children; thankfully there is the option for adoption, and many couples have been very happy raising children who were in need of a caring, loving home and parents.....

Bravo, and very well said. I completely agree.

This is making more sense to me. I think it’s up to the man and the woman not just the woman @Scepticalscribe

If she doesn't want a child, that is her decision to take.

 

[Huntn]

This is making more sense to me. I think it’s up to the man and the woman not just the woman @Scepticalscribe

...with both having veto power over having a child.
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Lol!!!!! If she’s got the new Mac Pro and XDR display she’s a keeper🤣
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I think the bigger question here is, which woman DOESNT want children? I’ve never dated a girl or even met a girl who doesn’t want kids.

As everyone else is saying, it’s up to the man and the woman to decide together if they want kids but it’s always the man who doesn’t want them and girl who does.

Girls like having a baby to raise and take care of.

any girl who doesn’t is missing out on one of life’s greatest and most fulfilling experiences

I want kids too btw.

Women who don’t want children exist I assure you. I don’t claim to kmow all about your personal tastes, but maybe the women you are drawn to want to have kids. There are women who want to pursue professions who either decide to delay having a child or think it’s too much trouble for their careers or it’s too much work in general. There are both men and women who are making this decision. Look at the Millenials.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It‘s just the way you said it: the woman has the sole decision. I’m thinking in terms of a relationship, when it comes to saying yes or no, it is a joint decision with each party having veto power over the decision. Each partner has the right to say no to having a child, so in a way both partners have the sole decision to stop it, but it is a dual (yes) decision to have one.

Generally, in relationships, when children are contemplated, both tend to arrive at the decision to have them.

However, if the female partner wants a child, and the male partner doesn't (or, as sometimes happens, doesn't want a child wth that female partner, but may choose to have a child wth another female parter), if having children is a deal breaker for her, the relationship will end, as he should be an enthusiastic party to that decision.

However, if she doesn't want a child, and he does, the decision rests with her, and is hers. He has no say - other than to terminate the relationship, if this is a deal breaker for him.

As for the OP, I have met (and socialised with and am friendly with) many women who do not have children, and who chose not to have children; some are married, others not, but all are professionally successful (and no, none were models), in journalism, the public service, diplomacy, academia, politics, the police, and so on.

 

[Huntn]

Generally, in relationships, when children are contemplated, both tend to arrive at the decision to have them.

However, if the female partner wants a child, and the male partner doesn't (or, as sometimes happens, doesn't want a child wth that female partner, but may choose to have a child wth another female parter), if having children is a deal breaker for her, the relationship will end, as he should be an enthusiastic party to that decision.

However, if she doesn't want a child, and he does, the decision rests with her, and is hers. He has no say - other than to terminate the relationship, if this is a deal breaker for him.

As for the OP, I have met (and socialised with and am friendly with) many women who do not have children, and who chose not to have children; some are married, others not, but all are professionally successful (and no, none were models), in journalism, the public service, diplomacy, academia, politics, the police, and so on.

...Just as the decision lies with him regarding yes or no, but that only represents half of the decision. That’s my point. There are two people involved, both have to agree to have a child, only one has to disagree to not have a child, to not have it.

At this point I believe we are both saying the same thing, but with different emphasis.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

...Just as the decision lies with him regarding yes or no, but that only represents half of the decision. That’s my point. There are two people involved, both have to agree to have a child, only one has to disagree to not have a child, to not have it.

At this point I believe we are both saying the same thing, but with different emphasis.

Yes, we probably are saying the same thing (in different ways, from different perspectives) to a certain extent.

Both have to agree to have a child, (and on that, we are agreed).

However, historically, women had no say within a relationship if they preferred not to have children, (and, in may parts of the world, still don't) - that you can be in a relationship and choose not to have children is a new choice for women - that is a recently acquired right, and one that was hard won - whereas - historically - men have always had the choice of whether to have children or not.

 

[Ifti]

wow - this thread is still alive?!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think that the OP could do with changing (editing, amending) the thread title if he no longer feels awful.

And I suspect that he moves in exceedingly limited social circles - or highly clichéd and gendered ones (even in his mind), if he has never met a woman who did not wish to have children.

 

[Huntn]

Yes, we probably are saying the same thing (in different ways, from different perspectives) to a certain extent.

Both have to agree to have a child, (and on that, we are agreed).

However, historically, women had no say within a relationship if they preferred not to have children, (and, in may parts of the world, still don't) - that you can be in a relationship and choose not to have children is a new choice for women - that is a recently acquired right, and one that was hard won - whereas - historically - men have always had the choice of whether to have children or not.

I agree. My argument is based on my perception of the society I live in, and my perception of most Western societies and what I believe is the context for this particular thread. I acknowledge the state of women historically and those who live today in parts of the world that are gender discriminative and repressive.

 

[Hieveryone]

Like I just don’t understand how this is even a debate @Huntn @Clix Pix @Scepticalscribe

My girl and I have argued a lot and there’s been many miserable moments starting with my OP but never about kids. She wants 3 and I think it’s not a bad idea. In time, 3 would be good.

And I don’t see WHY anyone wouldn’t want children especially a girl. It’s one of the most amazing things a woman can do in her life is have a baby.

How would humanity continue if women didn’t want children?

And yes @Scepticalscribe the title of my thread should be “Nevermind, it worked out so far *knock on wood*” haha!! 😅

Also, @Scepticalscribe, do women really say “I’m successful at journalism so no baby for me!” lol like you can have a great career and a baby it’s not an either or thing

The only reason why a girl might not want one is bc she has a health issue or something then I get that.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Like I just don’t understand how this is even a debate @Huntn @Clix Pix @Scepticalscribe

My girl and I have argued a lot and there’s been many miserable moments starting with my OP but never about kids. She wants 3 and I think it’s not a bad idea. In time, 3 would be good.

And I don’t see WHY anyone wouldn’t want children especially a girl. It’s one of the most amazing things a woman can do in her life is have a baby.

How would humanity continue if women didn’t want children?

And yes @Scepticalscribe the title of my thread should be “Nevermind, it worked out so far *knock on wood*” haha!! 😅

Also, @Scepticalscribe, do women really say “I’m successful at journalism so no baby for me!” lol like you can have a great career and a baby it’s not an either or thing

The only reason why a girl might not want one is bc she has a health issue or something then I get that.

It may surprise you, - and you clearly do not understand this, as your perspective on such matters is strangely skewed - but some women do not feel the need - or urge, or desire - to have children, and have chosen not to have children, not to procreate, because they have other priorities (personal, professional or any combination of both) in their lives (as individuals, or as a couple).

And some have told me - if appropriate birth control existed or had been considered acceptable or appropriate in their respective (patriarchal) cultures - that they would have limited the size of their families, and not had the number of children that they had, had such a choice been open to them.

Some women have other priorities in life than giving birth to, nurturing and rearing children - and health issues need not necessarily be a factor, although they are for some.

Besides, it is not as if the world is not already over-populated.

 

[Hieveryone]

It may surprise you, - and you clearly do not understand this, as your perspective on such matters is strangely skewed - but some women do not feel the need - or urge, or desire - to have children, and have chosen not to have children, not to procreate, because they have other priorities (personal, professional or any combination of both) in their lives (as individuals, or as a couple).

And some have told me - if appropriate birth control existed or had been considered acceptable or appropriate in their respective (patriarchal) cultures - that they would have limited the size of their families, and not had the number of children that they had, had such a choice been open to them.

Some women have other priorities in life than giving birth to, nurturing and rearing children - and health issues need not necessarily be a factor, although they are for some.

Besides, it is not as if the world is not already over-populated.

Nah this is false. Every woman except for I guess a very very few minority want children. It’s one of life’s greatest joys and girls who choose not to because they’d rather do “journalism” really have lived an incomplete life IMO

As much as I love money and success, family is the one thing that exceeds that any day!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Nah this is false. Every woman except for I guess a very very few minority want children. It’s one of life’s greatest a choice and those who choose not to because they’d rather do “journalism” really have lived an incomplete life IMO

No, not at all.

As per usual, you are in error, completely clueless about women, and have very warped views on women, and the roles women should play in society and life.

No, not "every woman" wants to have children. And, nowadays, for the first time ever, women have the choice not to, and can still remain independent economically, while also engaging in relationships, should they choose to do so.

And, it is extraordinarily patronising (but not surprising given the sexist tone and believe system - "perfect 10s", prancing, hot, but exceptionally young blonds, none of whom want to discuss philosophy but who do want to be prancing adornments- but, of course - bear children, as has been made abundantly clear in some of your earlier posts), not to mention offensive, to suggest that women who choose not to have children have lived "incomplete lives".

Some women have other priorities, and the blessings and advances of the twentieth (and twenty first) centuries mean, that for the first time in recorded history, if you are a woman (in the First World, at least) you can get to fulfill some of your life ambitions and choices, and these may include not chasing to bear children.

Nevertheless, it is fascinating that some men seem to find it incredibly threatening to think that there are women who are disinclined to shoulder the caring burdens of society and who may to wish - or choose not to - bear children.

Many do, but a surprising number do not, and, nowadays, not least with access to education, and therefore, economic autonomy, and the choices afforded by safe, reliable, and affordable birth control, they can actually choose not to have children - and yet, still have relationships.

 

[throAU]

So in your particular situation, you did not even mention what YOU really want. You just said that you would go along with anything that SHE wants. It is, of course, totally up to you if you should be worried about this.

I don't particularly want kids, if she desperately wants them then I'll have them. I never did want kids before, but i'd have them with her. But thus far she doesn't want them, which is fine with me. As mentioned by people above, i feel it is more the woman's decision, as she is the one who's body has to carry them.

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Exactly. Because it takes so much commitment on a woman's part, we can bottom line her interest level in a particular man.

Nah. You are assuming every woman wants kids.

Some don't.

Some don't want the hassle, would rather spend time doing things THEY want to do in life rather than raise children.

Kids are a 20-30+ year commitment to basically putting your own life on hold and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

Just because a woman doesn't want kids, doesn't mean she isn't committed to a relationship.
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Nah this is false. Every woman except for I guess a very very few minority want children.

We know how much you know about women from this thread.
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However, it is entirely possible not to want to have any children, ever, with any man, but to be interested in sharing your life with (and to love) a particular man. In that situation, it (the decision to choose not to have children) is not "bottom line" - rather, it is non-negotiable, with each and every man.

100% on the money.

Myself and my girlfriend do not want to spend time on children (well, at least for me - they are not a priority. her happiness is high on the list and she doesn't want them. i could go either way, but have no desire to procreate myself).

We are happy doing the things we want to do with our lives. Children are a hassle to travel with, kill your sex life, kill your social life, kill your wallet and the planet is overpopulated anyway.

 

[throAU]

And I don’t see WHY anyone wouldn’t want children especially a girl. It’s one of the most amazing things a woman can do in her life is have a baby

.... a woman was responsible for writing the code that landed man on the moon. I'd say thats infinitely more impressive than popping out yet another human being like so many billions of others have done before.


As mentioned above several times, you have a very narrow perspective on a lot of things. Ever think that the girls you are dating are dating you because they are looking for a source of money for their babies? i.e., your perception is skewed. If you socialise in different circles other than just trying to pick up women at clubs, etc. then you will get a different perspective.

As mentioned several times above - women aren't just crazy baby factories. They are people with varied needs and desires, and you need to understand that. Maybe your girl wants kids - good for you. But to assume that all or even most do is just not in touch with reality.

Childbirth is painful, it plays havoc with the body, along with all the other drawbacks i mentioned above.

Childbirth is not some miraculous achievement. It's something that even the stupidest animals in the history of the universe manage quite easily.

To claim that childbirth is "one of the most amazing things a woman can do in her life" is abhorrent, and reduces women to baby factories no different to the simplest of mammals.

 

[Apple_Robert]

This thread ( via the OP) would make for a best selling book on dysfunctional relationships that are centered around treating women as status symbol pets, and the adolescent men looking for self-acceptance through psychological manipulation.

OP,

At this point in your intellectual and emotional life, you are not capable of having a healthy and fulfilling relationship with any woman who values herself beyond empty, placating words and material goods and money.

At this point, you will continue to attract women who are just as dysfunctional. And the very things you have been complaining about will continue, because the problems stem from and are perpetuated by you.

The last thing in the world you need to be thinking about right now, is fathering a child.

To the other responders, it would be best to start ignoring this thread, as the OP views attention, even negative, as twisted affirmation of his behavior.

The OP is about bragging and self-indulgence. No matter what is said and how many times he may agree, he will continue on as he has been. By responding and agreeing at times, he is able to keep the focus on him, which is where the self- indulgence comes in.

The OP wants what he wants no matter how he gets it.

How many of you have, or have had a friend who seems to live in constant emotional crisis? Said friend constantly unloads his or her emotional baggage on you like you were a landfill, agreeing with your sage advice, and the next day, week, and month, said friend is still engaged in the same behavior that supposedly makes them upset. And all said friend is looking to do, is unload the garbage on you or someone else, so that they can relieve themselves of the burden, thus absolving them (in their mind) of having to rightfully address the problems of their own creation.

These are the kinds of things that have been manifest in this thread from the OP, along with his other threads. Be strong and disengage.

 

[avz]

I don't particularly want kids, if she desperately wants them then I'll have them. I never did want kids before, but i'd have them with her. But thus far she doesn't want them, which is fine with me. As mentioned by people above, i feel it is more the woman's decision, as she is the one who's body has to carry them.

The reality is that the woman does have all the power, so it is extremely important for a man to "bottom line" on a certain key things if he does not want to look like a fool later.

There was a story on Australian TV when a woman had a kid from a guy on a side while being in a serious relationship(or even marriage). The poor shmuck did not even find out about it until years later. The fun part is that she did not even admit that she did something very horrible. After all it is the "sole decision of a woman and woman only". According to the statistics(UK I believe) there are 30% of population in a similar situations.

Don't get me wrong, I am not hating on women, simply because they kinda have to be the gatekeepers of whose genes are carry on into the future. It is actually might be a very mature attitude for a man to accept the situation and admit that his genes are not good enough to move forward(especially if he was not bright enough to prevent this situation in the first place).