Tile Decries Apple's iOS 13 Location Tracking Changes, Calls on Congress to 'Level the Playing Field' [Updated]

[TiggrToo]

Mmmhmm. Do you, um, do you think they are synonyms?

I'm not stupid. I'm not the one who brought them up either.

Don't care how, as long as the thing lasts longer than 1 battery charge, either replacement or recharging.

Thought this was obvious. Guess some people underthink things.

 

[robbysibrahim]

how has the find my app hurt their existing service? I mean, I can see if there were 'tags' released but the find my app? We have had find my iphone for years.

Because since iOS 13, all Apple devices crowdsource to help you locate your devices just the same way Tile does has done it. Before iOS 13, your individual device was the only thing reporting its own location. Your iPhone, Watch, Mac, iPad (even non-cellular), are all Tile devices now as long as bluetooth is on.

 

[4jasontv]

I'm not stupid. I'm not the one who brought them up either.

Don't care how, as long as the thing lasts longer than 1 battery charge, either replacement or recharging.

Thought this was obvious. Guess some people underthink things.

Cool. Sounds like you recognize that rechargeable and replaceable are completely different ideas. It came across like you thought they were associated. As long as we all agree that batteries can either be replaceable, rechargeable, OR replaceable and rechargeable. When someone says they want one it doesn’t mean they do or don’t want the other as well.

 

[DarwinOSX]

B.S. Tile just wants to sell your location and other information to advertisers. **** em.
They shouldn't even be in this hearing. They can see your location only when you use the app and that should be enough.

 

[TiggrToo]

Cool. Sounds like you recognize that rechargeable and replaceable are completely different ideas. It came across like you thought they were associated. As long as we all agree that batteries can either be replaceable, rechargeable, OR replaceable and rechargeable. When someone says they want one it doesn’t mean they do or don’t want the other as well.

I'd rather hope that I'd know the difference after 52 years on this planet and 30+ years in IT working across the globe...

 

[jarman92]

Sure, a subset of Tile's customers (like you) only want to locally find their Tiled device within nearby bluetooth range. If that's you, then just disable location services as you have suggested for yourself.

However, a large part of Tile's appeal is the crowdsourced find capability. If I have lost an object with a Tile attached (or it was stolen/left behind/you name it), I *want* others to provide the kindness of leaving their location services enabled for the Tile App. That's literally why their product works so well - you leverage everyone else's devices, just like Find My works for Apple devices. If your iPhone sees a Tile bluetooth ID, it's going to relay that to Tile's servers along with the location of your mobile device to give a rough approximation where that Tile was last seen.

I have received many many notifications over the years by people anonymously thanking me via their Tile app for having pinged their lost device for them. No individual users know where other users are, or for whom specifically they have helped find lost Tiles. Tile keeps occasional location updates stored of Tile Premium subscribers' trackers, not you.

If you don't want to help others (like they might help you in the future), then turn your location off and move along.

The incessantly part of your complaint needs to be directed at Apple for their changes in iOS, not Tile.

Yes, I understand how it works thanks. I have never used the crowdsourcing feature, don't need it, and should have the ability to turn it off if I want. If turning off location services kicks me out of the "crowd," then that's fine. But that isn't an option.

And Apple isn't at all responsible for the enormous red banner that blocks parts of the Tile app, nor for the constant pop-up in the app.

 

[CarlJ]

how has the find my app hurt their existing service? I mean, I can see if there were 'tags' released but the find my app? We have had find my iphone for years.

Even if (when) Apple releases their take on tags, Tile saying, "hey, no fair, that hurts our business because it competes with my product", is pretty weak. They don't have a monopoly on the field of finding lost devices electronically, and Apple's algorithms for keeping everything private appear to be considerably more secure than what Tile has. If the point is, "we want location info", there's already a mechanism for that today, and it sounds like Apple's going to make it a bit easier to use.

 

[jarman92]

This is incorrect. Tile has two very good reasons to constantly track user location. It is fundamental to how it works.

1) Let's say Bob loses his widget somewhere while running errands. Bob doesn't know where. If Tile (the app/service) had constant access to Bob's location, it will know the last time and location Bob's widget was in range of Bob's phone, because it had been tracked. Bob can go to that last known location, press the Ring button, and find his widget.

On the other hand, if Bob had location tracking turned off, then Tile has no idea where and when the widget was last in range of the phone. Bob will have to retrace his route of errands, constantly hitting the Ring button every 10 feet due to the short range of Bluetooth, and hope for the best.

2) Let's say Sara has a Tile on her ferret's collar. The ferret gets loose accidentally and is running around the neighborhood. Sara had location tracking turned on for Tile, but it doesn't really matter since the last reported location in range of her phone was the ferret at home.

However, thankfully, there are many other Tile users around. And when Sara reports her Tile lost, the entire Tile Community Network looks for the ferret. If and when the ferret ever gets in range of anyone's Tile, it is reported to Sara. In a twist of fate, the ferret is hiding out near Bob's house, and because it is in range of Bob's phone and he has location tracking services on, Sara can go get her ferret.

----

So you can see, every single person turning off Tile location services loses feature #1 and weakens feature #2.

If you have location services off, then you are unable to benefit in scenario #1, and you are also refusing to help others find their items in scenario #2. That's totally fine, use the product however you like. Maybe you only need a "I want to find something I set down in the house somewhere" device, and maybe you prefer higher personal privacy over helping others.

But that is NOT the same as saying Tile has absolutely no reason to have location services on. They have very good, fundamental reasons for wanting that to be on.

The amount of time some of you guys spent explaining this very simple concept to me that I already understand is amazing lol. See my response above. I don't want the crowdsourcing feature and should be able to turn it off.
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Not a fan of Tile at all (Their Privacy Policy sucks) but I believe they need that functionality so you can summon the phone from the Tile device. Their version of "Find my Phone" that is limited to bluetooth range.

Possibly. That's another obnoxious feature that I turned off lol

 

[ActionableMango]

The amount of time some of you guys spent explaining this very simple concept to me that I already understand is amazing lol. See my response above. I don't want the crowdsourcing feature and should be able to turn it off.

It is a reasonable and normal assumption that a person buys a product to use it as intended. So when you say "there is absolutely no reason why the app needs constant access to your location", that statement is extraordinarily misleading to others who don't know that you aren't using the product as intended, and also to those who are not familiar with crowd sourced smart tracking features in the first place. I am responding not just to you, but to others who might be misled by your lie.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

Instead of crying, Tile (and others) should create their own smartphones and have the advantage of tying their tracking devices to their own phones! I'm really anticipating the Apple "tags" devices, hoping they work in a way that I can put one on a backpack and my iPhone will alert me when I am out of range of the backpack. Hopefully that range will be hundreds of feet, at the least.

 

[ipedro]

I have a Tile and sometimes use the app, but there is absolutely no reason why the app needs constant access to your location. When I need to find my keys, I open the app and press the "Ring" button...even at that point, Tile has no reason to know my location. The app still works if you disable location access but it pesters you incessantly to re-enable location services.

Huh? Of course it needs your location at all times. That’s how the community based system works. If you come across a lost Tile, it has to know where you are to report it to the server so the person can find their lost item. Of course, you may only care about yourself and only want it to work when you lose an item tagged with a Tile, in which case I’m sure it’s ok that Tile tracks other people’s location so they can report where your Tile was found.

 

[robjulo]

You 100% totally missed the point in your zeal to defend Apple.

Well Tile shouldn’t be selling products with non-rechargeable/non-replaceable batteries. Once Apple come out with their tile it will revolutionise tracking of products all over the world in a secure way thanks to the clever Public/Private key system they’ve developed with iOS 13.

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I love how the Apple shills become bug business proponents....but only when it comes to Apple. Guarantee it flies in the face of 99% of the rest of their beliefs......but when it comes to Apple for shilling for Tim Cook....it's a different story.

 

[jinnj]

" location tracking for ‌Find My‌ is enabled by default"
I agree also Find My is not on by default. New Phone "Install" does ask.
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If browser downloads of apps was possible on iPhone (with user express consent), developers would flee the iOS App Store because Apple’s policies are in their best business interest rather than the developers business interest. Competition is definitely needed to encourage the iOS App Store to be more developer friendly. Apple’s monopolistic attitude into forcing things on developers will backfire when Europe or the US Supreme Court rule it in violation of anti-trust laws next year, as this bullying attitude will be remembered by the developers (especially ones with competing apps). On macs, users can download apps from a browser...why can’t they on iPhone?

Also why can't I download my apps on my PS4 or the XBOX!!
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Apple fans are deluded

Apple changes their software to introduce new rules that break third party functionality, exclude their own products from following the same rules, and the response is just "this is not anti-competitive because Tile could make their own phones"

How are they excluding their own software? I got asked if I wanted to enable "Find My"

 

[Abazigal]

If not broke, how about severely damaged? By making it much more difficult for a User to grant Tile always on location access, Tile's ability to crowd source location of Tiles is neutered. Yes, Tile can give users instructions how to turn this back on, but most users won't do it. (Why do I care about someone else's Tile? PRIVACY!) (To be far, Tile was always at the mercy of the number of users that had their app installed, which was likely a VERY small percent of iPhone users.)

The big question, if Apple introduces their version will they abide by the EXACT same rules that they are making Tile. No default to Always On, no using existing settings (ie. just because I have location services turn on on my phone, doesn't mean I want location services turned on by default for the Tags.) Will crowd sourcing device be turned off by default on my phone and only I can explicitly turn it on?

If not, then Apple is no playing with a level playing field.

I don’t see why Apple should be expected to have to play on a level playing field with everyone else.

You can’t expect Apple to grant other developers the same permissions and access it gives its own hardware and services, for the simple reason that Apple simply won’t be able to police them the same way they police themselves. It’s a security and privacy nightmare.

On the other hand, expecting Apple to subject itself to the same limitations it imposes on other developers will mean that products like the Apple Watch and AirPods can’t and won’t exist, and everybody loses.

Ultimately, Apple’s policies, while not perfect, result in the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of users (as it should). Trust Apple to deliver the best integrated experience possible.

 

[robjulo]

It's called an antitrust issue. And while you "don't see" it in Singapore, this is a US issue and it's alive and well in the United States.

I don’t see why Apple should be expected to have to play on a level playing field with everyone else.

You can’t expect Apple to grant other developers the same permissions and access it gives its own hardware and services, for the simple reason that Apple simply won’t be able to police them the same way they police themselves. It’s a security and privacy nightmare.

On the other hand, expecting Apple to subject itself to the same limitations it imposes on other developers will mean that products like the Apple Watch and AirPods can’t and won’t exist, and everybody loses.

Ultimately, Apple’s policies, while not perfect, result in the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of users (as it should). Trust Apple to deliver the best integrated experience possible.

 

[scrapesleon]

Poor tile walk along

 

[Abazigal]

It's called an antitrust issue. And while you "don't see" it in Singapore, this is a US issue and it's alive and well in the United States.

We will see. I don’t think Apple will actually lose, but if it’s one thing I have learnt about such matters, it’s that this is rarely a case of who is right or wrong.

 

[robjulo]

No...it’s a matter of law. Antitrust laws are there for a reason and believe me, I doubt you want to get into a debate about the rationality of laws of your country and the US.

We will see. I don’t think Apple will actually lose, but if it’s one thing I have learnt about such matters, it’s that this is rarely a case of who is right or wrong.

 

[fairuz]

Why does Tile want iPhone location services anyway if the point is to track the Tile devices? I've never heard of this company, so maybe I'm missing something the article should have clarified.

For apps that truly need location tracking, users have to go out of the way to grant access, so it's it's really stupid for iOS to still periodically remind them. Apple should have done one or the other, not both.
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It's called an antitrust issue. And while you "don't see" it in Singapore, this is a US issue and it's alive and well in the United States.

What does this have to do with antitrust? Apple controls the device and its software, and those are pretty closely related. I don't see much harm no matter what they do because consumers have Android as an alternative, and in fact most of them use that alternative.

If Apple released their own competitor to Tiles, that would be different.
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Because since iOS 13, all Apple devices crowdsource to help you locate your devices just the same way Tile does has done it. Before iOS 13, your individual device was the only thing reporting its own location. Your iPhone, Watch, Mac, iPad (even non-cellular), are all Tile devices now as long as bluetooth is on.

Thanks for probably being the first person to explain this, including the article. I didn't know how Tile works.

 

[SSonnentag]

iPhone has replaced a lot of things:

Camera​

Watch​

Alarm Clock​

Stopwatch​

Calendar​

Wall Phone​

Gaming Console​

Laptop​

Music Player​

DVD Videos​

TV Remote​

Pager​

Photo Album​

Video Camera​

Credit Card​

Vehicle Insurance Card​

Vehicle Registration Paperwork​

Address Book​

Flashlight​

Mirror​

Car Keys​

House Keys​

Thermostat Control​

Security Camera Surveillance and Footage Review​

Libraries​

Wallet​

​

...and a whole lot of other things. Get over it, PopSockets, Sonos, Basecamp, and Tile.

 

[Tech198]

Thing is, this is what happens when you have power as well..

You can blame anyone but yourself if another company chooses their own direction as for protecting their customers...

These apps/developers just want more power to do what they want, while at the same time pretending to play by the rules, like Facebook was caught doing.

It only "appears" uneven playing field.. but if developers chose not to want more information he field would become balanced again.

If you start to focus on privacy by restricting what you can do, and others can also do, then those are in place for a reason...

This issue is more about companies getting what they want more than Apple protecting its own customers. Competition is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[DoctorTech]

If browser downloads of apps was possible on iPhone (with user express consent), developers would flee the iOS App Store because Apple’s policies are in their best business interest rather than the developers business interest. Competition is definitely needed to encourage the iOS App Store to be more developer friendly. Apple’s monopolistic attitude into forcing things on developers will backfire when Europe or the US Supreme Court rule it in violation of anti-trust laws next year, as this bullying attitude will be remembered by the developers (especially ones with competing apps). On macs, users can download apps from a browser...why can’t they on iPhone?

I understand your point but personally, I still would not download apps from anywhere other than the Apple's app store. I know Apple's vetting process isn't perfect but I trust it more than downloading from other sources. I have downloaded very few programs from the Internet onto my iMacs and MBP and that was only because they were not available through the Apple App store.

 

[I7guy]

...when Europe or the US Supreme Court rule it in violation of anti-trust laws next year...

It may not go down as you think it will.

 

[FaustsHausUK]

That would make the iPhone a poor product since it depends on modems from Qualcomm, glass from Corning, and screens from Samsung.

You take those three away and replace them with the alternatives and you have a pretty crappy phone.

There’s a big difference between a supplier, and your product piggybacking on an entire other product to function. Why make blades for someone else’s razor yanno.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Tile is all messed up for me - it's showing that my Forester XT keys were last seen in south part of Miami 2 days ago - they're in my desk drawer in Colorado.

It says one set of my daughter's Jeep keys are in the middle of Texas 13 hours ago - they've been in Billings Montana since Jan 9th. The other set in Billings was last seen there 6 days ago.

My wife's Subaru keys were last seen near Lake George CO over Thanksgiving break, while were were no where near that location out west.

I checked my privacy settings, and Tile is set to use location "Always". I have a working tile in my desk drawer and in my wife's purse that haven't been seen in 2 months.