[WW] Knee-Deep in the Dead - WOOF WOOF WEREWOLVES WIN

[Don't panic]

one little note about the blocker private/dual rule, since you seem to be stuck on it, or to try to 'catch me in a lie'

• first, i think this is a completely irrelevant red-herring, as the point was obviously to block plutonius as soon as possible, before he could strip tomorrow of the seer power

• second, the power is not private, it is a dual-power in the 'scoreboard and rules" thread, it is indicated as dual in the summary table at the bottom of the google doc, and it is indicated as dual in the summary color-coded table in the first post of the scoreboard thread

9. Blocker - This player can block the special activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period (not both).
This does not apply to regular voting or to core WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills (unless kami is an WW exclusive power, rather than WW core). it could apply to a Maniac kill.
(Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Examples: a. if a Stretcher is expanding the deadline and removing the majority lock, the Blocker can make the extension collapse and the original deadline/majority lock is reinstated; b. when a soother is ‘silencing’ a player, if the blocker targets the soother, the mellowed player goes back to normal status and their vote counts as normal; c. if the power is used at night on player W, and they are the guard, their activity is ineffective, but they do not know it; d. if the Blocker target a player who turns out to be the Seer, the scan fails; e. if they target the Oracle before an answer is provided in the thread, the question goes unanswered, without explanations by the GG

i do see that twietee, indicated it as a private power in the OP of this thread, so that is obviously what counts here, but i wasn't aware of it until now. he must have changed it or used an older version from before the rules were finalized. i don't know if there are other differences in the rules.
i thought if there was any change they would have been highlighted. i have been using the other thread as my reference for rules​

• third, the above doesn't really matter much, as there is really little difference in practice, as the power would have worked both in public and in private, if used in time

​

 

[Sythas]

And @rick snagwell , why going MIA after shooting SS and looks like you did not even read the thread after, only to vote for DP, no explanation or version of was you think ?

 

[Don't panic]

I do think we would lynched Anjinha (unless Lost in the woods). But if Melrose and Fenris are villagers, they are greatly helping the ww.

i think you are probably right, unless some anomaly would have come out of the role outing

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

that would depend on what role would you and/or melrose have claimed.
either you could have claimed the die-hard, which would have exposed you for the wolf, or the first speaking could have claimed the role the second speaking really has (if you are not both wolves)

and even if you had lucked out into one of the open spots, we would have had time this morning to possibly engineer a switch from anjinha to someone else, once it was clear she was MIA.

so no, it didn't make 'little' difference. it made quite a big difference in favor of the wolves.

@Don't panic - you still haven't answered my question about why you asked for a private power to be used publicly?

I think anjinha would still have ended up lynched so I think it made little difference to the results of yesterday.

If the Seer had been infected, the whole ploy could have been you fishing for a role to hide behind - hence the coming out last. I was 1/2 expecting you to say you were Stalwart so you couldn't have been infected or an original wolf - would have been perfect cover if you'd been lucky to infect the Seer. That's less likely at this point, although could be you eventually decided to take a risk. My by reckoning you had a 71% chance of being able to pick an unused role.

@Tomorrow - why are you so sure DP is still a villager and not infected since your scan?

 

[Don't panic]

@Don't panic - you still haven't answered my question about why you asked for a private power to be used publicly?

I think anjinha would still have ended up lynched so I think it made little difference to the results of yesterday.

If the Seer had been infected, the whole ploy could have been you fishing for a role to hide behind - hence the coming out last. I was 1/2 expecting you to say you were Stalwart so you couldn't have been infected or an original wolf - would have been perfect cover if you'd been lucky to infect the Seer. That's less likely at this point, although could be you eventually decided to take a risk. My by reckoning you had a 71% chance of being able to pick an unused role.

@Tomorrow - why are you so sure DP is still a villager and not infected since your scan?

now you are just rambling. that post makes no sense.

and i did answer to your question, extensively.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

one little note about the blocker private/dual rule, since you seem to be stuck on it, or to try to 'catch me in a lie'

• first, i think this is a completely irrelevant red-herring, as the point was obviously to block plutonius as soon as possible, before he could strip tomorrow of the seer power

• second, the power is not private, it is a dual-power in the 'scoreboard and rules" thread, it is indicated as dual in the summary table at the bottom of the google doc, and it is indicated as dual in the summary color-coded table in the first post of the scoreboard thread

​

i do see that twietee, indicated it as a private power in the OP of this thread, so that is obviously what counts here, but i wasn't aware of it until now. he must have changed it or used an older version from before the rules were finalized. i don't know if there are other differences in the rules.
i thought if there was any change they would have been highlighted. i have been using the other thread as my reference for rules​

• third, the above doesn't really matter much, as there is really little difference in practice, as the power would have worked both in public and in private, if used in time

​

Ok - I was using the OP in this thread. I see the contradiction now

I thought at the time this was a way to try and out the blocker if around and get them to use up the power. Probably the only one who picked up on it as I'm the blocker. Guess I'm not giving up too much at this point with Melrose the only one left without a power.

That does make you a little less suspicious.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

now you are just rambling. that post makes no sense.

and i did answer to your question, extensively.

Yeah you did whilst I was typing that response - saw it just after posting.

 

[Sythas]

@Don't panic - you still haven't answered my question about why you asked for a private power to be used publicly?

You too made a mistake about how the roles are, are you a wolf ?. DP suggested the role to be put in thread to have an imediate effect. that's all.

@Don't panic
I think anjinha would still have ended up lynched so I think it made little difference to the results of yesterday.

For yesterday lynching, luckly you are right, but for tomorrow lynching you are helping the wolf

 

[Don't panic]

Ok - I was using the OP in this thread. I see the contradiction now

I thought at the time this was a way to try and out the blocker if around and get them to use up the power. Probably the only one who picked up on it as I'm the blocker. Guess I'm not giving up too much at this point with Melrose the only one left without a power.

That does make you a little less suspicious.

so why didn't you block plutonius?

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

so why didn't you block plutonius?

Blocker
can block the activity of one player for the next applicable day or night-time period, but not both. This does not apply to core WW powers such as the basic night-time kill, the infection or the kamikaze kill except if the kill only occurs because of the Maniac power. (Active, One-time, Anytime, Private)

I'd read this as meaning it didn't take affect until the period after the current one. so I had two reasons to distrust you.

 

[twietee]

re Blocker being private/any-time: no idea how that happened as I copy/pasted all that stuff over and only edited/shortened the 'prose' a bit. Maybe inbetween you edited again DP and I didn't notice? Or the forum switch interfered. No idea.There is no reason why the Blocker should be private only imo.

So yea, still basically everything applies as is stated in this OP of course, if there is a question or discrepancy to "DPs" rules thread I've also linked: feel free to call me out on it, be it privately or open.

 

[Don't panic]

re Blocker being private/any-time: no idea how that happened as I copy/pasted all that stuff over and only edited/shortened the 'prose' a bit. Maybe inbetween you edited again DP and I didn't notice? Or the forum switch interfered. No idea.There is no reason why the Blocker should be private only imo.

So yea, still basically everything applies as is stated in this OP of course, if there is a question or discrepancy to the rules thread I've also linked: feel free to call me out on it, be it privately or open.

no problem. it is what it is, and obviously there is no doubt that the rules that count are those in the game thread.
Besides, as i already mentioned, it would really have made no significant difference in use, had it been used.

the rules were finalized at some point before the start of the game, and i didn't change them since.

actually it would be good after the game is ended to go over them and tease out some of the issues, if any

 

[twietee]

actually it would be good after the game is ended to go over them and tease out some of the issues, if any

That's for sure! I agree with QoS that it would really help to try keeping changes in check, but ironing out quirks like that is vital.

Was there a question about how the power would have worked though? Because I won't interrupt/interfer your discussions and interpretations until you scratch your heads, look upon the clouds and ask "What now?", if you know what I mean.

 

[Tomorrow]

@Tomorrow - why are you so sure DP is still a villager and not infected since your scan?

I think it's odd that he would be infected so early on before I cleared him. Has he been infected since? Perhaps, but I don't think so - the tone and direction of his posts hasn't changed, so either he hasn't been infected or he's done a fine job of fooling me.

I still think it's a fool's errand to lynch someone who has been cleared versus someone who has not - unless we know the person previously cleared is no longer an innocent villager.

That being said, if I were to be killed by the WW's tonight or tomorrow (knock on wood I make it that long), I would definitely take a long, hard look at DP. It's out in the open that I have no power to help the village, which means I should be the bottom priority for a lynching.[/user]

 

[Scepticalscribe]

the rules were finalized at some point before the start of the game, and i didn't change them since.

actually it would be good after the game is ended to go over them and tease out some of the issues, if any

Agree; there are a few matters which could do with further clarification, discussion, and possible amendment.

 

[Don't panic]

10 people remaining, 9 tomorrow unless sythas pulls off a miracle save.
2 or 3 wolves: kami, alpha and -assuming the infection has occurred- a third one which could be the initial third wolf or the infected wolf

notwithstanding fenris and melrose lack of collaboration, i think the all-out was still helpful. i think we would have lost for sure without it, while at least now we have some good and helpful informations.

everyone mostly claimed a role, some more credibly than others

Core:

tomorrow: seer (swapped to soother, than leeched) - scans supported by SS
sythas: guard
techgod: undertaker​

Village exclusives:

thug: moyank

hunter: chrmjenkins (scavenged by rick, spent)​

executioner: comeagain

morpher: astroboy​

General pool:

reverber: QoS
rioter: koodauw​

soother: ---------- (spent, swapped to seer)

spy: scepticalscribe
amplifier: intell​

die-hard: dontpanic

swapper: plutonius, WW (swapped seer and soother)​

leech: ravenvii (leeched
scavenger: rick (scavenged hunter, spent)
blocker: fenris
stretcher/collapser: melrose​

players with unknow roles:

anjinha
woodNUGC​

unassigned roles (VE and GP)

stalwart
oracle
seeker
stretcher/collapser
necromancer
judge​

since (obviously) nobody claimed the soother/seeker, at least one person is lying about their role.

possibly more than one if the third role was a WW exclusive, or if one of the ww roles was the oracle or necromancer (for which it would have been hard to justify why they were not used, or for which it could be asked to use them) immediately).

for this, the most likely candidates are Melrose and/or Fenris: they were the last to come out and did it only once they could not be disproven.

Fenris was the very last, so he could just pick whatever he wanted.
Melrose didn't really pick one. he hinted it was to do with time, thus pointing at the collapser/stretcher, but this way he kept a door open to pick 'the other one', if fenris was one of the two.​

of the rest, i was the last one to come out, but since i was scanned by the seer on night 1, i was locked into my role. i couldn't just pick an available one like fenris and melrose (unless tomorrow was in on it)

anyone coming out before me risked picking one that someone else already had. so it included a degree of risk of getting caught in the lie.
the one with the lowest risk, but still a discrete risk, was comeagain, who could have just taken a guess at the executioner, next would be moyank, but the risk would have been already higher.

one possible way out of that would be if they somehow knew the role of woodNUFC and used that. For example, if techgod was infected, had scanned woodnufc instead of chrmjenkins and found the executioner, he could have 'given' the role to comeagain (not saying this happened, just an example of something possible).​

the alpha, kami and the 'third wolf' (if still around), are/can be from the General Pool, so with the exception of the original Soother, they could just declare they regular role (if not compromising, like oracle/necromancer, and if not a ww exclusive)

people with role from the General Pool are:

Rick Snagwell (scavenger, then hunter)
Ravenvii (leech, than soother)
Dontpanic (however i was cleared by the seer, so the only way i could be a wolf is through infection)​

people who cannot possibly be Alpha or Kami (if they have been truthful about their role):

tomorrow (seer)
sythas (guard)
techgod (undertaker)
moyank (thug)
comeagain (executioner)
​

Alpha/Kami:
Thus, based on the outing of the roles, both the alpha and kami are included among these 4 players:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick
if someone lied, than obviously this could be different.

Third wolf:
if plutonius was the infected player, than the 'third wolf' is around, they cannot be a village core/exclusive
Thus, based on the outing of the roles, the third wolf -if present- is included among these 4 players:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick
if someone lied, than obviously this could be different.

Infection:
it is not 100% sure that the infection is at play now: it could have failed or i could have been plutonius.
however, it is safer to assume it is in play. In this case, everyone can be the infected wolf, although with much different degrees based on posting, actions and so on.

however, while we should keep this in mind, especially as powers and votes are involved, we really should focus on alpha/kami/third first.

I am sure i will incur the wrath of the 4 mentioned above, but it seems most likely to me that -barring additional, high risk lies in the roles- 2 or maybe even 3 wolves are included in only 4 players.
in my opinion, this is a dramatic improvement on what we knew yesterday, even if it might cost us the guard

night snack
moyank is immune, so the ones at highest risk are Sythas, techgod, tomorrow, myself and comeagain

my personal suspect rank list:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick, Comeagain, Moyank, Techgod, Tomorrow, Sythas

 

[Sythas]

my personal suspect rank list:
Melrose, Fenris, Rick,Ravenvii, Comeagain, Don't Panic, Moyank, Techgod, Tomorrow, Sythas

I do think the infection was used (maybe I protected it). I do think that Plutonius was only the third wolf.

 

[Sythas]

I do think Fenris was protecting himself with the Blocker stuff. I do think it was way too much a problem for him that what it should have been.

Rick and Ravenvii for what they did.

Comeagain, by coasting.

In my mind there's no chance that Moyank, Techgod, Tomorrow are Infected.

 

[Don't panic]

I do think Fenris was protecting himself with the Blocker stuff. I do think it was way too much a problem for him that what it should have been.

Rick and Ravenvii for what they did.

Comeagain, by coasting.

In my mind there's no chance that Moyank, Techgod, Tomorrow are Infected.

I hope you are right about Fenris, but I am not convinced at all.
he seemed way too focused on trying to somehow 'nail' me, while completely disregarding a number of much more obvious and likely scenarios, which btw did not necessarily include him as one of the bad guys.
And the blocker business didn't help one bit.

as for the infection, i am including everyone, although clearly not everyone is at the same level.
but i'll worry about that later, first alpha and kami

 

[Sythas]

Third wolf:
if plutonius was the infected player, than the 'third wolf' is around, they cannot be a village core/exclusive
Thus, based on the outing of the roles, the third wolf -if present- is included among these 4 players:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick
if someone lied, than obviously this could be different.

I really don't think Rick lied or Fenris.

 

[Don't panic]

I really don't think Rick lied or Fenris.

you mean about their roles?

my point was more that of someone outside the 4 lied (e.g comeagain), then they also could be alpha/kami, so the 4 become 5 etc.

 

[Sythas]

I hope you are right about Fenris, but I am not convinced at all.
he seemed way too focused on trying to somehow 'nail' me, while completely disregarding a number of much more obvious and likely scenarios, which btw did not necessarily include him as one of the bad guys.
And the blocker business didn't help one bit.

as for the infection, i am including everyone, although clearly not everyone is at the same level.
but i'll worry about that later, first alpha and kami

We are all focused to find a problem in your reasonning DP, EVERYONE!

you mean about their roles?

my point was more that of someone outside the 4 lied (e.g comeagain), then they also could be alpha/kami, so the 4 become 5 etc.

Yes about their roles.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

actually it would be good after the game is ended to go over them and tease out some of the issues, if any

Agreed - makes sense.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

10 people remaining, 9 tomorrow unless sythas pulls off a miracle save.
2 or 3 wolves: kami, alpha and -assuming the infection has occurred- a third one which could be the initial third wolf or the infected wolf

notwithstanding fenris and melrose lack of collaboration, i think the all-out was still helpful. i think we would have lost for sure without it, while at least now we have some good and helpful informations.

everyone mostly claimed a role, some more credibly than others

Core:

tomorrow: seer (swapped to soother, than leeched) - scans supported by SS
sythas: guard
techgod: undertaker​

Village exclusives:

thug: moyank

hunter: chrmjenkins (scavenged by rick, spent)​

executioner: comeagain

morpher: astroboy​

General pool:

reverber: QoS
rioter: koodauw​

soother: ---------- (spent, swapped to seer)

spy: scepticalscribe
amplifier: intell​

die-hard: dontpanic

swapper: plutonius, WW (swapped seer and soother)​

leech: ravenvii (leeched
scavenger: rick (scavenged hunter, spent)
blocker: fenris
stretcher/collapser: melrose​

players with unknow roles:

anjinha
woodNUGC​

unassigned roles (VE and GP)

stalwart
oracle
seeker
stretcher/collapser
necromancer
judge​

since (obviously) nobody claimed the soother/seeker, at least one person is lying about their role.

possibly more than one if the third role was a WW exclusive, or if one of the ww roles was the oracle or necromancer (for which it would have been hard to justify why they were not used, or for which it could be asked to use them) immediately).

for this, the most likely candidates are Melrose and/or Fenris: they were the last to come out and did it only once they could not be disproven.

Fenris was the very last, so he could just pick whatever he wanted.
Melrose didn't really pick one. he hinted it was to do with time, thus pointing at the collapser/stretcher, but this way he kept a door open to pick 'the other one', if fenris was one of the two.​

of the rest, i was the last one to come out, but since i was scanned by the seer on night 1, i was locked into my role. i couldn't just pick an available one like fenris and melrose (unless tomorrow was in on it)

anyone coming out before me risked picking one that someone else already had. so it included a degree of risk of getting caught in the lie.
the one with the lowest risk, but still a discrete risk, was comeagain, who could have just taken a guess at the executioner, next would be moyank, but the risk would have been already higher.

one possible way out of that would be if they somehow knew the role of woodNUFC and used that. For example, if techgod was infected, had scanned woodnufc instead of chrmjenkins and found the executioner, he could have 'given' the role to comeagain (not saying this happened, just an example of something possible).​

the alpha, kami and the 'third wolf' (if still around), are/can be from the General Pool, so with the exception of the original Soother, they could just declare they regular role (if not compromising, like oracle/necromancer, and if not a ww exclusive)

people with role from the General Pool are:

Rick Snagwell (scavenger, then hunter)
Ravenvii (leech, than soother)
Dontpanic (however i was cleared by the seer, so the only way i could be a wolf is through infection)​

people who cannot possibly be Alpha or Kami (if they have been truthful about their role):

tomorrow (seer)
sythas (guard)
techgod (undertaker)
moyank (thug)
comeagain (executioner)
​

Alpha/Kami:
Thus, based on the outing of the roles, both the alpha and kami are included among these 4 players:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick
if someone lied, than obviously this could be different.

Third wolf:
if plutonius was the infected player, than the 'third wolf' is around, they cannot be a village core/exclusive
Thus, based on the outing of the roles, the third wolf -if present- is included among these 4 players:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick
if someone lied, than obviously this could be different.

Infection:
it is not 100% sure that the infection is at play now: it could have failed or i could have been plutonius.
however, it is safer to assume it is in play. In this case, everyone can be the infected wolf, although with much different degrees based on posting, actions and so on.

however, while we should keep this in mind, especially as powers and votes are involved, we really should focus on alpha/kami/third first.

I am sure i will incur the wrath of the 4 mentioned above, but it seems most likely to me that -barring additional, high risk lies in the roles- 2 or maybe even 3 wolves are included in only 4 players.
in my opinion, this is a dramatic improvement on what we knew yesterday, even if it might cost us the guard

night snack
moyank is immune, so the ones at highest risk are Sythas, techgod, tomorrow, myself and comeagain

my personal suspect rank list:
Fenris, Melrose, Ravenvii, Rick, Comeagain, Moyank, Techgod, Tomorrow, Sythas

Nice analysis DP - I assume soother/seeker should be soother/seer?!

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

We are all focused to find a problem in your reasonning DP, EVERYONE!




Yes about their roles.

Yeah I was looking for a problem in DP's defense/reasoning since I thought I'd found some mistakes in his play.