WWDC Keynote

[nickgold]

Re: Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by gjohns01


Extreme requires AGP 2X.

Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

 

[porovaara]

Either stupid or whiny?

Which is it?

Good grief people you won't be able to get accelerated Quartz. That is it. The rest of the update will be fine. There are already significant speedups across the board which will help every mac out there... but c'mon. Stop whining that you bought your FIXED system Mac (ie a laptop) and it suddenly won't run FUTURE technology perfectly.

Which world do you guys live in where everything you buy is all of a sudden compatible with everything that comes along in the future? Does it really matter if it is tmrw? next month? next year?

When you buy something like a computer, you should be making your sole judgment on if it makes you happy then. Does it do everything you want it to? If you are buying based on future expectations then you are completely ignorant of the way the computer industry works.

Does this new update make your mac any less usable than it is now? No, in fact it will make it more so.

 

[mischief]

-nickgold,porovaara

Welcome to the Anti-zealots.

 

[gjohns01]

Re: Re: Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by nickgold


Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

Ok. cool. I need to buy a new Mac anyway. My beige G3 is way past retirement.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by nickgold
As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

So you're calling Rev A and B TiBooks low-end machines? What have you been smoking?

 

[BOOMBA]

Quartz Extreme

Originally posted by D0ct0rteeth
am i correct in assuming that any machine older than a quicksilver will not take advantage of Quartz Extreme?

damn.. there are going to be some pissed off people..

C-

I hope not.
I have an old G4 450, and I recently installed the ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition, with 64MB of RAM.

I really haven't noticed too much difference, in fact iTunes seems to draw visuals slower, but I am hoping to see BIG THINGS from quartz Extreme.

So even computers that are close to 3 years old can benefit.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Re: Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by nickgold
Read the requirements again. They seem to imply that AGP 2x is only required for ATI cards. The nVidia cards are listed before that, and there doesn't seem to be a mention of an AGP 2x requirement for those cards. We shall see, I could of course be mistaken.

How about you read them again:

*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.

They don't mention AGP2x specifically, since the ALL the cards listed are AGP4x cards.

 

[aafuss1]

Spring loaded folders are back

SPRING LOADED FOLDERS :

Finally Apple has brought back one of my favourite features- spring lp (that I like in Mac OS 8) to X.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: -nickgold,porovaara

Originally posted by mischief
Welcome to the Anti-zealots.

Actually they are the very definition of zealots, in that they are defending Apple in spite of the reality of what 10.2 means for most users.

Chalk up two more Zealots on the board.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Re: -nickgold,porovaara

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Actually they are the very definition of zealots, in that they are defending Apple in spite of the reality of what 10.2 means for most users.

Chalk up two more Zealots on the board.

So you would rather Apple not develop a 3D accerated desktop API and wait for Windows to do it?

 

[cryptochrome]

Originally posted by sjs
Would iChat and videoconferencing flow from the same software?
If the QT6 integrates with iChat?

Boy, wouldn't that take chatting to the next level?
Great for businesses too.

Well it seems to me that all these different communications methods (user info, email, IM, chat, videoconf/phone, audioconf/phone) if not all lumped under one program, then should be linked.

It only makes sense to be able to fluidly go from one communications method to another based on the parties' desire and ability to interact. You're sitting at your computer at home and send your friend a quick IM - he gets it on his mobile phone, and responds by initiating a phone conversation. A mutual friend calls in - the two of you videoconference while your friend on the road gets the audio. You send him some small files and pass access to a couple of large ones to get at his leisure at his request. And so on. To get the most out of this you have to integrate the wired and wireless phone and communications methods into the internet.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Re: Re: -nickgold,porovaara

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
So you would rather Apple not develop a 3D accerated desktop API and wait for Windows to do it?

Hardly. But I think that not enough consideration is being given to pruning down the GUI so that it runs well without the need for HW upgrades.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Re: Re: Re: -nickgold,porovaara

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Hardly. But I think that not enough consideration is being given to pruning down the GUI so that it runs well without the need for HW upgrades.

I agree with you there. I'm surprised there are not more options to turn off things like the window drop shadows.
I saw an interesting thing somewhere (maybe here) on how to turn off double-buffering using one of the Developer's tools. I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight, that could make things uglier but speedier.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: -nickgold,porovaara

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
I agree with you there. I'm surprised there is not options to turn off things like the window drop shadows.
I saw an interesting thing somewhere (maybe here) on how to turn off double-buffering using one of the Developer's tools. I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight, that could make things uglier but speedier.

There are 3rd party apps that turn off shadows (ShadowKiller). I use it on B&W G3 at work and it helps...a little.

Why hasn't Apple built this in yet? Are they just trying to force people to buy new machines?

 

[eirik]

Extr. Qtz. hmmm!

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
......

with 8MB of VRAM won't be able to take advantage of these features...hell the rev b models won't even be able to! Why can't they make the code more efficient rather than require faster hardware? I hate to see Apple going the route of bloatware just to pretty up the GUI.

I can't believe that Rower is the only poster to raise this point about more efficient code.

This extreme Quartz both worries and excites me. BeOS achieved a fast, rich GUI without requirements for an accelerator card. Is MacOS X so constrained with legacies that Apple cannot radically improve performance without an accelerator card?

Now as for those with about AGP x2, my impression of this Extreme Quartz news is that you won't enjoy the kind of accelerated GUI performance that those with the right video card would. I'm sure Apple is working to optimize its code so that there will be significant performance increases with Jaguar.

In an interview with some dude from nVidia, this guru said that the next battle ground would have something to do with anti-aliasing, smoothing the graphics displayed whereas frames per second and other metrics were the battlefield.

It may be that Apple is both looking to accelerate its GUI but also enhance it in terms of quality.

As for moving from vector graphics to OpenGL, I believe that statement is incorrect. Yes, Quartz will be totally OpenGL based, it sounds like. But that doesn't mean there won't be vector operations. At the least, the OpenGL API's/functions will execute as vector graphics. How can one achieve high performance without vector/matrix operations? Graphics and other multimedia just SCREAM for parallel execution.

Eirik

 

[Rower_CPU]

Thanks for the backup, eirik.

I'm very excited about Quartz Extreme, don't get me wrong. I'm just worried they may be shooting themselves in the foot by requiring heavy duty hardware and alienating customers who bought recently expecting 10.2 to bring significant speed improvements.

Schools and other institutions can't afford to upgrade every time Apple decides to add a new feature.

 

[Backtothemac]

Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by nickgold
Are Mac users a particularly whiny bunch, or what?! .....
As for the laptop owners who are complaing: Boo freaking hoo. Anyone who expects Apple to support all machines, especially those at the bottom of the scale, in every new feature release is a delusional fool. It's not like OS X will suddenly stop working. You simply won't have access to all of the possible power. Which is to be expected, if you have a lower-end machine. Get over it.

Actually, no slack jaw, I do not, nor do a lot of us own "low end" machines. I have just, and I mean in the last two months purchased two iBooks for 1499 each. Lets see, that is the top of the line except for the screen. So do yourself a favor. Shut up and get all of your facts right before you open your mouth, else someone may put their foot in it.

 

[mark_sloan]

Quartz Extreme and Cost?

2 questions. 1) Am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that you need a video card with those specs just to make the finder work at a decent speed? 2) Any word on whether this will be a free update or one of those that are too big to download and requires us to pay like $10 for a CD? (or worse, $50 or something for an update)

 

[Fat Tony]

Re: Either stupid or whiny?

Originally posted by porovaara
Which is it?

Good grief people you won't be able to get accelerated Quartz. That is it. The rest of the update will be fine. There are already significant speedups across the board which will help every mac out there... but c'mon. Stop whining that you bought your FIXED system Mac (ie a laptop) and it suddenly won't run FUTURE technology perfectly.

Which world do you guys live in where everything you buy is all of a sudden compatible with everything that comes along in the future? Does it really matter if it is tmrw? next month? next year?

When you buy something like a computer, you should be making your sole judgment on if it makes you happy then. Does it do everything you want it to? If you are buying based on future expectations then you are completely ignorant of the way the computer industry works.

Since I feel you are addressing my comments, like any smart consumer I don't buy a product so that it makes me happy the second I plunk down the cash and that's it. I try and make my purchases based on longevity of a product since I don't have loads of cash to throw around every 6 months. I'm not ignorant to the fact that my computer will soon become outdated. But it does matter, if I'm lead to believe by Apple employees at an Apple retail store, that no significant updates are coming when they pop up tommorow as you say. It makes a difference.

Here's the catch for me though. I saved up and purchased a top of the line setup for the 667 Ti book from the on-line store. The new 800 comes out a week later. I contact Apple to see if I can return my laptop but am told I cannot due to the fact that it is considered a "custom build" even though it is the top of the line package Apple has put together as a choice on the site. I didn't change a thing. If I had gotten either of the other two packages I could return my laptop I am told. I ask if I can return and pay the difference for the newer model but again no go. Instead I can get a 100 rebate.

I feel Apple is making hardware updates too quickly and alienating alot of loyal users. This just leaves me to believe that Apple is foremost looking for $$ for a positive quarter instead of a satisfied user base or focusing on solid software that does not require a hardware update in a 6 month timeframe.

But whatever, I'm still a mac enthusiast and hope this 32DDR is nothing but a recommend and not a requirement.

Now I'm done whining. So step off.

 

[mhodgso2]

Relax!

For all you G3, older mac people (AKA people who can't use quartz extreem), how about you just pretend it doesn't exsist. Before today you had no hope of ever running X any faster than it does now. Obviously...since you bought the computer in the first place, you thought that it was cool and it ran the OS at a decent speed. So to say now that you wont be able to run it at a good speed is rediculous. X will probably never run any faster than it does now on your machine, but it will probably never run slower either. Also, you boight those computers (iMac, iBook, TiBook) knowing that it was impossible to upgrade the graphics and processor. If you want that, buy a tower. Thats just the way it is. Thats the way its always been. X will never get faster for you......but you obviously thought the speed was ok when you bought it.

Regards,
Matt

 

[nickgold]

Re: Re: Whiners:

Originally posted by Backtothemac



Actually, no slack jaw, I do not, nor do a lot of us own "low end" machines. I have just, and I mean in the last two months purchased two iBooks for 1499 each. Lets see, that is the top of the line except for the screen. So do yourself a favor. Shut up and get all of your facts right before you open your mouth, else someone may put their foot in it.

If you think an iBook qualifies as "top of the line," you are sadly mistaken. It is actually the very lowest-end Mac available, out of their available products. You can't expect it to take advantage of every single aspect of the OS, which is designed to run on a variety of machines, from old iMacs, all the way up to the newest machines.

Also, for everyone who complains about the current state of the finder, I say shove off. I have been using OS X for a long time now on my G4 450 Sawtooth, and the speed of the finder has always been perfectly acceptable to me. SUre, I will love an improvement, but to imply that the finder is currently unusable is the biggest load of crap I've ever witnessed outside of my trip to the rest room this morning. Man, was that a stinker.

 

[mhodgso2]

Fat Tony...

Did you really just say that Apple is updating too quickly??????? That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Obviously you don't look very closely at the PC market.

Regards,
Matt

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Extr. Qtz. hmmm!

Originally posted by eirik
This extreme Quartz both worries and excites me. BeOS achieved a fast, rich GUI without requirements for an accelerator card. Is MacOS X so constrained with legacies that Apple cannot radically improve performance without an accelerator card?

As far as I know, the reason Quartz is slow is, mainly, because it is rendering a full screen of PDF in real-time. NeXTSTEP did this with Display PostScript (DPS) back in the late 80's but they were using a custom chip-set with DSP's so the 68030 didn't have to think about it (although they also ran DPS on x86 hardware - not sure how well that ran though).
I see the OpenGL route as a move back in that direction (like the NeXT DSP chips). I'm no expert in DPS or PDF but it's got to tax the CPU a bit to display a full, true-color display at 1024x768+ resolutions off of PDF. I'm sure optimizations for regular-old-Quartz (not Extreme)
will keep coming as will.
(Sorry this was so fragmented - I got pulled away twice while writing it! )

 

[Newborn77]

Keywords

*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.

What I get from this quote:
- ALL nVidia cards will be supported... all the ones made by Apple anyway.
- ONLY ATI Radeon cards that connect via AGP will be supported. No pre-Radeon/pre-AGP support = no iBook + older TiBook + older PowerMac support (older AGP Power Macs could be supported by doing a video card upgrade I guess).
- 32 MB VRAM recommended (doesn't mean Apple will not support cards with less VRAM... but don't count on it).

I guess this limitations are due to Apple trying to implement the technology as fast as they can without having to worry about support for "older" video cards (the same story of the Rage/Rage Pro "missing" drivers).
And of course to serve as a subtle incentive for Mac users to upgrade their "obsolete" hardware.

Just my 0,02 (non-american) cents.

 

[sjs]

With all the great possibilites raised by the various technologies introduced today, and how they might interact and what they might lead to, I wish this thread could go further than the name calling over whether your graphics card will be enough. Min is probably not and I just bought my computer 6 months ago.

When you think creativley about the new technologies and what could result from them there is a chance Apple is going get as much press from 10.2 as from the G4 iMac.

THINK