Abstract said:^^^ Stop using common sense. It's so annoying!
obviously not many people use it around here.
You want a dell, then get a dell
you want an apple, then get an apple
I chose to get an apple
You might choose to get a dell
End of story.
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Dells are really so insanely cheap.
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obviously not many people use it around here.
You want a dell, then get a dell
you want an apple, then get an apple
I chose to get an apple
You might choose to get a dell
End of story.
Abstract said:
I know.. it's a major failing on my part.
I think I'll start a thread bitching about how Guinness is SO ****ing lame because they charge so much money for beer when I can get a case of Olympia for the same price! That's 6x as much beer!! WTF Guinness??!!!
For someone that hasn't used Mac OS X, I can't really say XP is "crappy" until I use tiger extensively. I'm waiting patiently though...
And honestly, who doesn't want an OS codenamed 'Tiger'? I'm not even going to go into 'longhorn'...
And honestly, who doesn't want an OS codenamed 'Tiger'? I'm not even going to go into 'longhorn'...
yellow said:
yeah, but the multiple lightyear improvement still hasn't raised it above "crap". admittedly it was "super-duper-ultra-stinkin crap" before...
generik said:
and it's £1085 here - that's US$2030. i can get my hands on a MacBook Pro for £1189. £104 more. for something that doesn't look like a cat's arse, i'd much rather have a MBP.
I work with XP everyday and use it many nights to play games. I find it to be unintuitive because I'm an Apple-Lifer. My computer "logic" is based in the Apple camp. But I don't see XP as all that bad. Sure it has a few basic (major?) flaws in it.. The registry and multi-use DLLs. We'll see how Vista is. At least it LOOKS better. No more 8-bit freaking icons. Jebus.
bigandy said:...for something that doesn't look like a cat's arse, i'd much rather have a MBP.
Now wait! Do not insult the poor cats arses! What have they done to you?
Remember when Apple was the hippie brand? What happened? Why did its corporate culture change to conspicuous consumerism, and why do people get off on that?
Yes, because OS X vs. XP is just like "The OC" vs. "8 Mile" - clearly XP is torn apart by manufacturing jobs moving offshore, race riots that have never fully healed and institutional corruption. Jesus.
This and the Chevy vs. Ferrari argument are moronic. The latter in that equation gives you a greater amount of performance and actual value - whereas there's no appreciable performance difference between a Macbook Pro and a similarly equipped Dell (think of the OS as a transmission).
The reality of MBP vs. Dell XPS vs. MB vs. is more like Audi vs. BMW vs. VW vs. Mini.
Your Audi and your BMW perform about the same - one has the DSG manual-auto transmission, BMW has their 'lesser' clutchless manual, one is FWD/AWD, the other is RWD - the VW (in certain models) gets the same DSG as the more expensive Audi... and then Mini just has a straight manual or straight auto (with shifter), which is fine for most people.
And, of course, there's Skoda - which is basically the same as a VW or Audi, but costs half as much because you aren't buying the nameplate.
you said apple computer have better components than dell, what are you examples?mdntcallr said:
how often do you use it?.. and more importantly, do you know HOW to use it?prady16 said:
to you XP might be a piece of junk, because you don't know how to use it (and no, just because you might have played with it sometimes, know how to launch programs, does not mean you know how to use it)... it's like, people who havent switched complain how bad OS X is because it's different from XP, you'd get mad at them saying they're ignorant.. well, you might be just as ignorant.
OS X and XP are different, OS X isn't THAT much better.. if you put a OS X expert and a XP expert in the same room, i bet they can use their respective system just as good as the other one.
An expert shouldn't be required to reap standard benefits from a computer out of the box. I shouldn't have to turn off things in the control panel just to eek out enough perfomance to make it to the next day.
Once I've played with OS X, out of the box, I'll let you know how it performs against Xp after I've tweaked it all out.
Once I've played with OS X, out of the box, I'll let you know how it performs against Xp after I've tweaked it all out.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again....
When you buy a Mac, you're buying into a total "experience". That may sound corny at first - but it's the only way I can explain it. I come from a long PC (DOS, Windows, OS/2 and even Linux) background, and only became a real Mac fan in the last 4 years or so. A Mac is more than the sum of its parts.
Yes, you can tear one apart, price out all the components, and argue that "Such an such a PC gives you all of that, or more, for a better price!" But that would be missing the point.
(Reminds me of the old Carl Sagan "Cosmos" episode where he tried to determine the exact value of a human being. After adding up the value of the carbon, the glucose, the minerals, and everything else making up a person - it came out to a grand total of $3 and some change.)
With a Mac, you have a completely different library of software to choose from, a more close-knit community of users that still think passionately about their computers, a typically better "service after the sale" experience from Apple (or a 3rd. party Mac dealer), and attention to detail in the design/styling that most PC makers never come close to achieving.
And as other people pointed out too, a Mac tends to hold up a little better over time than the plasticy, cheaply thrown together Windows desktops and laptops most vendors crank out. I've had at least 5 or 6 Windows diehards chastize me to "paying way too much" for my Apple Powerbooks I've owned in the past - yet as the months went on, I was still pleased with my purchase. Meanwhile, many of them already resold their Windows laptop alternative because of one issue or another, and were on a 2nd. or 3rd. notebook!
When you buy a Mac, you're buying into a total "experience". That may sound corny at first - but it's the only way I can explain it. I come from a long PC (DOS, Windows, OS/2 and even Linux) background, and only became a real Mac fan in the last 4 years or so. A Mac is more than the sum of its parts.
Yes, you can tear one apart, price out all the components, and argue that "Such an such a PC gives you all of that, or more, for a better price!" But that would be missing the point.
(Reminds me of the old Carl Sagan "Cosmos" episode where he tried to determine the exact value of a human being. After adding up the value of the carbon, the glucose, the minerals, and everything else making up a person - it came out to a grand total of $3 and some change.)
With a Mac, you have a completely different library of software to choose from, a more close-knit community of users that still think passionately about their computers, a typically better "service after the sale" experience from Apple (or a 3rd. party Mac dealer), and attention to detail in the design/styling that most PC makers never come close to achieving.
And as other people pointed out too, a Mac tends to hold up a little better over time than the plasticy, cheaply thrown together Windows desktops and laptops most vendors crank out. I've had at least 5 or 6 Windows diehards chastize me to "paying way too much" for my Apple Powerbooks I've owned in the past - yet as the months went on, I was still pleased with my purchase. Meanwhile, many of them already resold their Windows laptop alternative because of one issue or another, and were on a 2nd. or 3rd. notebook!
razzmatazz said:
prady16 said:
Since they were both released to the public, I've seen one blue screen in XP and one blue screen in Windows 2000. Both blue screens were hardware related (bad chipset in an external HD). 1 blue screen apiece in 5 years is impressive.
XP is a good OS if you know how to protect it. It takes about 10 minutes of actual work but some people are idiots and haven't got a clue. "Gee, what's a firewall? That sounds BAD, I better leave that off."
OSX is a better solution to most idiot users in the world because its safe out of the box.
In terms of pricing - if you're buying a cheap system then yes, anything else is cheaper than a Mac. Try building something with specs like a Mac Pro and then come back and tell me how much cheaper that Dell is because it isn't. Even if you build the machine yourself, the Mac Pro is still similar in price (or cheaper in some cases especially when you include the fact that OSX is included in the Mac Pro price versus having to pay for a copy of XP separately). I spec'd out some parts to build a machine on NewEgg in the aim of making it similar to a $2999 Mac Pro 2.8 and ended up with a $2500 system. I'd save $500 building my own. No thanks...I'd rather have the Mac Pro.
My first several computers were Macs more than 15 years ago, and since then everything I've purchased have been Windows based computers. At this point in time I'm sick of Windows, period. I don't have any problems with Windows and I never have had any problems per se, but after using OSX 10.39 on a G5 at work for the last year and a half - I despise Windows now in terms of productivity versus what I get done at work in OSX. So, I'm sick of Windows. My next computer will be a 20" or 24" C2D iMac and at that time I will sell the majority (if not all) of the other Windows related computer equipment I have and ditch Windows for good, forever. I may turn my 3 gig P4 tower into a networked media/storage server and install Fedora on it or something, but I haven't made up my mind yet on that.
trueheart78 said:
you don't need to turn off things in control panel, brother.
system resources are eaten by spyware and such, that's not because XP is weak, that's because 90% of personal computer out there are running windows, thus hackers and spyware writers gets more writing against XP, therefore XP is more "dangerous" or so it seems... however it you KNOW how to use it, take your measures, there's no reason why it won't act as nice.
on my thinkpad (3 yrs), i have no anti virus, i have no firewall, i have no anti spyware that's not part of the windows and my router.. yet i have only had one spyware incident in the past 3 yrs... and i'm no expert in using the system.. there are still much to learn
my point is, the reason mac appear to be safer is because there aren't as many hacker/spyware writer out there against mac, not because XP sucks
provided, i dont deny that OS X has it's own advantages, including integrated features and etc, but XP has its own strong point too, including ability to run vast majority of software out there (which goes back to my previous point... # of ppl to write "good" software is proportional to # of ppl write "bad" software)
please, bashing windows just because it's "windoze" is getting really really old, and does not make you look good.
i'm not a dell fanboy, i dont like dell for my personal reasons, but really it's ridiculous that apple is selling something of similar quality and manufacture cost for 4x... (and dont even start saying how apple's quality is good, it WAS, not anymore).. i'm not saying OS X and the look doesn't worth anything, but it sure doesn't cost apple 4x to produce them.. apple is overpriced. (not that i won't keep buying it, but generik has a very good point..)
bearbo said:
Wow.. you're living on borrowed time. yada yada reasoning behind that yada.
bearbo said:
I'm not sure you can really say that. You can say that Apple is EXPENSIVE, but not overpriced. Afterall.. tell me which computer you can purchase that has OS X (legally) installed on it that is a much better price point?
A little story for whatever it's worth:
I work IT for a US govt agency. A couple years ago we bought 10 Dell laptops. We have to buy what is on an approved list of equipment or we get run through the wringer trying to justify the purchase. So we got the 10 Dells, and with two years of pretty light use, I had 4 of these laptops go belly up with the same problem which was a fault in the power distribution portion of the motherboard and it required a motherboard replacement. The is a support contract in place, so my organization didn't have to levy additional cash to get the laptops repaired, but the taxpayers paid for it either way. My point is that a 40% major failure rate was and is unacceptable to me. This year we set out to purchase 8 new laptops. The approved units were Compaqs and Dells. The reviews had them about equal, so I said we're going with Compaq. Submitted my paperwork, and next thing I know I am being told that if we want to use them a certain way or with a certain system, they need to be Dells. Well, our new Dells arrived yesterday. No major failures yet, and I have my fingers crossed.
BTW, I use a Dell at home, but hopefully it will be replaced with a 20" iMac by this coming spring.
I work IT for a US govt agency. A couple years ago we bought 10 Dell laptops. We have to buy what is on an approved list of equipment or we get run through the wringer trying to justify the purchase. So we got the 10 Dells, and with two years of pretty light use, I had 4 of these laptops go belly up with the same problem which was a fault in the power distribution portion of the motherboard and it required a motherboard replacement. The is a support contract in place, so my organization didn't have to levy additional cash to get the laptops repaired, but the taxpayers paid for it either way. My point is that a 40% major failure rate was and is unacceptable to me. This year we set out to purchase 8 new laptops. The approved units were Compaqs and Dells. The reviews had them about equal, so I said we're going with Compaq. Submitted my paperwork, and next thing I know I am being told that if we want to use them a certain way or with a certain system, they need to be Dells. Well, our new Dells arrived yesterday. No major failures yet, and I have my fingers crossed.
BTW, I use a Dell at home, but hopefully it will be replaced with a 20" iMac by this coming spring.
bearbo said:
The only reason i stated what I did is because you mentioned 2 experts on either OS would have to agree they can perform similar - I've been doing computers for some time, and without registry hacks and changing some of the services under the admin tools, Xp is still ok, I'll agree. I will not bash XP because really until I buy a mac that's all I've got - but I will say I can see areas that do need improvement.
ezekielrage_99 said:
Exactly. My brother's Dell failed exactly 2 weeks after the one year warranty on the parts. That cheap price didn't include the extended warranty. The cheap price didn't include a graphics card that played the game he wanted either.
You also can't purchase off the shelf replacement parts for them any more than you can buy a motherboard for a Mac at the local computer parts store. Bottom line was that the cost of the tech call just to trouble shoot his computer and the parts that it took to fix it cost more than another computer. Hence, Dell computers are disposable.
Check out the prices on the "real" Dell workstations that actually do more than web browsing and email. When I was buying Dell workstations for my engineers (the company owner didn't allow Macs - another long story) I never got one for less than $4,000 and usually spent closer to $6,000.
Nice try!!! Almost got me!
I couldn't make your link work from a government computer, so I went to Dell Singapore and looked around a little bit. I did indeed find a Core 2 Duo laptop, but for about 1,699 SGD. Your estimate would make that around one thousand USD. Not bad, except that I then checked the conversion rate. 1,699 SGD is equal to about 1,071 USD.
Also worth noting, the Dell laptop had the following features.
1.83 ghz C2D
512 GB RAM
17" WXGA
60 GB 5400 rpm HD
24X COMBO drive
Intel GMA graphics subsystem w/shared memory
ethernet
Wow! What a deal! Slower than MBP (but with a 2 in there!)
Same RAM
Same SIZE screen but no glossy option
Small, slow hard Drive
No DVD burning
No dedicated graphics card
No wireless
No bluetooth
No iSight camera
No iLife suite
Barely Vista ready, if you even want that.
On the bright side, over 100,000 viruses are complimentary! No extra charge!
I'm sorry, I'm gonna go with the Macbook Pro...
I have to wonder... Why did you go to MacRumors forums to post this? Oh, wait, nevermind. It's gotta be the same reason my coworkers make fun of Macs around me. Some Mac Users get heated too quickly when you insult the computers that we love. Oddly enough, never met a PC user who loved his inspiron or optiplex as much as I love my powerbook or the MBP I'm buying when leopard comes out.
Grow up. No one here is going to force you to buy a mac. If you want a dell, buy one! Dell's customer service is rated almost as high as Apple's by Consumer Reports.
I couldn't make your link work from a government computer, so I went to Dell Singapore and looked around a little bit. I did indeed find a Core 2 Duo laptop, but for about 1,699 SGD. Your estimate would make that around one thousand USD. Not bad, except that I then checked the conversion rate. 1,699 SGD is equal to about 1,071 USD.
Also worth noting, the Dell laptop had the following features.
1.83 ghz C2D
512 GB RAM
17" WXGA
60 GB 5400 rpm HD
24X COMBO drive
Intel GMA graphics subsystem w/shared memory
ethernet
Wow! What a deal! Slower than MBP (but with a 2 in there!)
Same RAM
Same SIZE screen but no glossy option
Small, slow hard Drive
No DVD burning
No dedicated graphics card
No wireless
No bluetooth
No iSight camera
No iLife suite
Barely Vista ready, if you even want that.
On the bright side, over 100,000 viruses are complimentary! No extra charge!
I'm sorry, I'm gonna go with the Macbook Pro...
I have to wonder... Why did you go to MacRumors forums to post this? Oh, wait, nevermind. It's gotta be the same reason my coworkers make fun of Macs around me. Some Mac Users get heated too quickly when you insult the computers that we love. Oddly enough, never met a PC user who loved his inspiron or optiplex as much as I love my powerbook or the MBP I'm buying when leopard comes out.
Grow up. No one here is going to force you to buy a mac. If you want a dell, buy one! Dell's customer service is rated almost as high as Apple's by Consumer Reports.
So effectively a Mac can be more appropriately related to a pc workstation, I would assume? Dell's M65 & M90 don't start out cheap, I'll tell you that.
you mean... because you can't protect your computer appropriately, i'm living on borrowed time? i feel perfectly secure about my computer (and secure about my ability to protect my computer).. unlike someone hereyellow said:
i'm saying apple is overpriced because their profit margin (which by the way, is the money they get from you and me) is higher than other manufactures.. it has nothing to do with whether i can legally run OS X (and no, i dont bother, i do that on mac).. i'm not comparing apple straight w/ dell, that'd be comparing apple w/ orange, i'm comparing the profit margin of apple against that of dell, apple has a high marginyellow said:
even for mac pro, sure you can't build a computer of that specs for lower than that price, but dont forget when manufacture buys thousands of the parts, they get discounted rate.
i'm not arguing against that with all factored considered, presently OS X is running more securely in real-world environment in hands of people who don't have very high computer skill... which is what mac good at for a lot of parts... however, XP can run just as good in hands of someone w/ more knowledgedpaanlka said:
and as to the answer to your question, i stated the reason in my other post
are you comparing mac pro or macbook? the DO differ in price, you know?trueheart78 said:
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